Steve Nathan Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 the key debate is interesting. I'd never considered it could be anything but D (or D Mixolydian as I said earlier), but upon a fresh listening, to me the tonal center does change from D to G when it moves from the piano solo to the guitar solo. This could make a great theory debate in a classroom setting (as long as the kids could get past listening to stuff their parents listened to!). It always sounded to me like it was in D, but the guitarist was (wrongly) playing over it like it was in G. There's no single correct answer. I was grinning when I made my first post here on this so called controversy. Lots of songs sound like one key to some folks and another to others. It's just perception and has no bearing whatsoever. I've been "number charting" demos for record sessions for a long time, and this happens all the time. I hear "the one" one way and some other player hears it another. Sometimes I'll be handed a chart that another player has made and I re-write it because my ear hears it differently. Neither is definitively "right". In the case pf SHA, (while still grinning), I suggested that if you had to insist on calling it one way only, then shouldn't the guitar players who wrote the song get to decide? Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 There's no single correct answer. I was grinning when I made my first post here on this so called controversy. Lots of songs sound like one key to some folks and another to others. It's just perception and has no bearing whatsoever. The same thing can happen with rhythms. To this day, I "hear" the opening of "I Want to Hold Your Hand" coming in on the 4, even though intellectually I know they're coming in on the preceding upbeat. The intro to the Eagles' "Take It Easy" has the same little trick (another example where bands often play it wrong). Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 If I want to sound like the Honkettes at the end of the song what key do I set the vocal processor harmonizers for. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Here is a rendition of my tribute band doing it. Didn't really hit clean on this particuler night, but it's passable i guess.. Awesome! I try to get it as close as I can, but this shows I need to do some work. When I do it I'm doing it off of memory and improvising a lot, but I've never actually sat down and tried to learn it note by note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosendorphen Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Billy Powell is the man...but I'm not sure if I respect him more now for the great licks or having the great sense to use two hands! I had to teach myself the one hand method for those licks! Ya' gotta do it with one hand when you're playing left hand bass! I had the same issue some years ago when our band covered Genesis' "Fading Lights." I was playing left hand bass at the time but had to do Tony Banks' "hand over hand" technique for the synth solo later in the song. But I had to do it with just my right hand. A nice challenge but it worked and I still have a video of that gig from 1993. SHA is just another example where our forumites rise to the occasion and go beyond the call of duty: left hand bass, right hand solos, transcriptions, Huzzah! "The devil take the poets who dare to sing the pleasures of an artist's life." - Gottschalk Soundcloud Aethellis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumeril Seven Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 To me the key to making that song enjoyable to play is for band members to actually step up and learn all the parts, especially the guitarist(s). That song is like an exercise in seeing how many variations on a simple riff you can come up with. Most bands just learn a couple of them and the song becomes monotonous by the 2nd verse. D7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Most bands do not have the Honkettes. The girls made that song. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Most bands do not have the Honkettes. The girls made that song. Under that logic, nobody had Ronnie Van Zant and he made that song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 The whole tune builds to the finale with the massive vocal parts at the end. Without all those voices what do you build to? It was one of those anthem pieces with the build up to the big finish. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadslayer Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Well, just to be a contrarian, I always thought that solo (SHA that is) sounded over-rehearsed and stiff. I would have liked it better if it wasn't quite so perfect and had a more improvised feel. Yeah, like Layla.... No. Not like Layla. I was thinking more along the lines of Chuck Leavell's piano solo in "Jessica". Similar genre, plenty of well thought out licks, but the whole thing has a fluid, "live" feel that SHA does not. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Why. Won't. This. Thread. DIE.? Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I actually sat down last night (on the 34th anniversary of the crash- played Freebird on my guitar as well) and started learning this solo for real. Been doing it a long time but just off the cuff cover band style- and putting my own virtuoso twist to it. It's amazing! At first couldn't figure it out at all (the first licks) then as I went over it it started to come together. Billy was an ace for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 What really matters is knowing whether this song is in the key of D or G That discussion blows my mind! I still can't make up my mind. It's in D, the first chord. Just think of the "Ooo Ooo Ooo" part after the lyric "In Birmingham they love the gov'ner." They throw in two extra chords that resolve perfectly to the D. Funnily enough, Werewolf in London, which uses the same chord sequence (not sure of the key) is just the opposite. The tonic is the third chord. Shambala (Three Dog Night) is another that uses that pattern. Of the three, Alabama is the only one that seems ambiguous in key. I hear it the way you do, but the "two extra chords" you refer to don't really prove the case. They could be 4-7-1 or 7-4-5. Here's another that might be tricky... what key is Dreams (Fleetwood Mac) in? I would say C, even though no C chord is ever played. Anyone here think otherwise? Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The whole tune builds to the finale with the massive vocal parts at the end. Without all those voices what do you build to? It was one of those anthem pieces with the build up to the big finish. Without all those voices, it's an obnoxiously repetitive 3-chord song. Wait - even WITH all those voices, it's an obnoxiously repetitive 3-chord song... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The whole tune builds to the finale with the massive vocal parts at the end. Without all those voices what do you build to? It was one of those anthem pieces with the build up to the big finish. Without all those voices, it's an obnoxiously repetitive 3-chord song. Wait - even WITH all those voices, it's an obnoxiously repetitive 3-chord song... "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I mean, seriously, I'm stunned at how much gushing is going on here. Van Zant's three-note melody is completely static and boring. Three guitars and a piano in the background, and somehow they couldn't come up with a musical bed to at least make it interesting? No, they just took turns soloing, kinda like they did in every other Skynyrd "anthem". Yet we have people talking about the backing vocals creating a "build up" to the "big finish"? What big finish? It FADES OUT! They couldn't even give the damned thing a proper burial, the engineer had to cut them off! One can practically imagine poor Mills sitting there, 4 minutes in, shaking his head going "Really, guys? Again?" and Kooper finally saying "Ok, Rodney, just kill it. They'll go all day otherwise..." A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 What big finish? It FADES OUT! They couldn't even give the damned thing a proper burial, the engineer had to cut them off! One can practically imagine poor Mills sitting there, 4 minutes in, shaking his head going "Really, guys? Again?" and Kooper finally saying "Ok, Rodney, just kill it. They'll go all day otherwise..." Funny, this made me think of Hey Jude... Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 What big finish? It FADES OUT! They couldn't even give the damned thing a proper burial, the engineer had to cut them off! One can practically imagine poor Mills sitting there, 4 minutes in, shaking his head going "Really, guys? Again?" and Kooper finally saying "Ok, Rodney, just kill it. They'll go all day otherwise..." Funny, this made me think of Hey Jude... I could picture Martin and Richards doing the same... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Why. Won't. This. Thread. DIE.? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Why. Won't. This. Thread. DIE.? Because Necrobump FTW? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah, Sweet Home Alabama. When people request it, most musicians have to hold their mouth so they don't hurl. That song's continued popularity demonstrates how little non musicians know about music. Cheers, Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 That song's continued popularity demonstrates how little non musicians know about music. ...and how little musicians know about how to write a song with mass appeal and make a gazillion dollars. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 That song's continued popularity demonstrates how little non musicians know about music. ...and how little musicians know about how to write a song with mass appeal and make a gazillion dollars. Yay for dumbing down art! If Hermann Poll had followed your guidance, we'd still be playing "Greensleeves" on our lutes, because no one would have bothered with such a cumbersome, complex instrument like a harpsichord to play simple folk tunes that appealed to the masses... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Oh snap! Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I mean, seriously, I'm stunned at how much gushing is going on here. Van Zant's three-note melody is completely static and boring. Three guitars and a piano in the background, and somehow they couldn't come up with a musical bed to at least make it interesting? No, they just took turns soloing, kinda like they did in every other Skynyrd "anthem". Yet we have people talking about the backing vocals creating a "build up" to the "big finish"? What big finish? It FADES OUT! They couldn't even give the damned thing a proper burial, the engineer had to cut them off! One can practically imagine poor Mills sitting there, 4 minutes in, shaking his head going "Really, guys? Again?" and Kooper finally saying "Ok, Rodney, just kill it. They'll go all day otherwise..." Hmmm... It's such a piss poor crap of a song, that no cover band can ever get any of the parts right and it's butchered everynight in bars nationwide! (Including by this keyboard/guitar player). It reminds me of road racers' disdain for oval tracks, it's only four easy corners right? Piece of cake ! They joins us at our slick oval track karting weds and go straight to the back. Piece of cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah It's dumbed down so much it's rarely played right. It's a business and the customer is generally right. Time to go to work everyone break a leg! "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 That song's continued popularity demonstrates how little non musicians know about music. ...and how little musicians know about how to write a song with mass appeal and make a gazillion dollars. Yay for dumbing down art! If Hermann Poll had followed your guidance... My comment was not intended as guidance. (And personally, I don't like the song at all.) Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 by CEB: It's a business and the customer is generally right. Lets face it, musical taste is subjective. I never went along with the statement that the customer is always right or in your statement, is generally right. Rather, the customer can spend his money anyway he wants. Cheers, Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah It's dumbed down so much it's rarely played right. It's rarely played right by bar bands because most bar bands rarely play anything correct to the record, because they're too much in a rush to just "get out there and make some money" to learn the songs correctly. SHA isn't the first, nor will it be the last, song to be butchered by half-ass bar bands. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonianKing Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah It's dumbed down so much it's rarely played right. It's rarely played right by bar bands because most bar bands rarely play anything correct to the record, because they're too much in a rush to just "get out there and make some money" to learn the songs correctly. True, but sometimes bar bands give a new twist to those songs cause they can't stand it anymore. (Not saying they make it sound better, just saying). 90% of the songs i've played with bar bands was never played exactly like the record, to me that's called a tribute band, not cover band. (even though both plays cover songs, the latter isn't trying to sound/look exactly like one specific artist.) "The purple piper plays his tune, The choir softly sing; Three lullabies in an ancient tongue, For the court of the crimson king" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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