baby grand or not?

[Joe Muscara]

The beauty (and frustration) of pianos is that every one is different. I have a 5'5" 1913 AB Chase grand that blows away most grand pianos under 6'3" in terms of pure tone. It sounds BIG with full bass all the way down to A0. And it has the original strings and hammers on it. When I replace both, it's going to be an amazing piano. That's just pure high-quality workmanship and design..

I wish you were here so we could work on mine.

[rockkeys]

I actually have a working knowledge of physics as I am an engineer by profession who can do calculus-based physics in my sleep.

 

Wow. When I go to sleep...I have way, way more fun than you do.

[gryphon]

In my opinion, Yamahas are not overpriced.

Yamahas are FREAKIN' WAY OVERPRICED. Sorry. I got carried away.

They are (in general) a joy to tune, stay in tune longer, and are very well-made pianos.

I have no disagreements with these statements.

 

The problem is they are harshly brittle (the C series, not the G series, but the C series are better pianos). I agree that they are very well made. But so are all of the other pianos in that range or better.

 

I wouldn't own one, but that's because I don't like their tone.

 

Some of you people seem to like what the Piano Book says. (Also PianoBuyer online). Yamaha is considered the best of the worst. Until the most recent realignment, Yamaha was rated right along with other consumer grade pianos like Pramberger and Young Chang and Brodman.

 

The new alignment puts them as "professional grade" with Kawai and Vogel and Bohemia. (These were consumer grade as well, a new third middle tier "pro" was added. Why, I don't know).

 

The thing you should know is you could have bought a "Performance Grade" piano for the same money. Pianos in this ranking include Mason and Hamlin, Seiler, Steinway, Estonia, Bechstein, and others.

 

Did you price Estonia? Did you price M&H? Did you price Seiler? Did you even price Charles Walter or Schimmel?

 

All better than Yamaha, and many at the same price point. This is proof that Yamahas are overpriced.

 

I am amazed that guitar players know guitar manufacturers. Bass players know bass manufacturers. Piano players don't know piano manufacturers.

 

And we spend ten, twenty, thirty, forty thousand on a piano. It boggles the mind.

[Dave Ferris]

I love Yamahas too. Had a C7 for 12 years and the S6 for 10. If I were a rich man, I would have kept the S6, unbelievable piano !

 

The thing about Yamahas is they can get bright and harsh when they're played a lot, played hard, and the voicing is not kept up.

By the time I'd sold my S6 is was ready for a new set of hammers. They had been filed down and voiced about as much as possible.

 

However a few years prior to selling it, after a major voicing, the sound was on par with ANY piano I'd ever played. Glorious !!

 

I've played various Estonias and they're not my cup of tea but to each to his own.

If I was at a recording studio and was doing a trio or solo CD and was given the choice between a C3 and a Estonia 190 of relatively equal age and level of prep, I don't think the Estonia would be my choice.

[gryphon]

Most people don't own an S6. They own a C1 which is horrible and not at all comparable.

 

It's like comparing a Corvette to a Geo Metro. Same company, entirely different product and target audience.

 

Don't be disingenuous. It distorts the truth and arguments.

 

It's interesting that you would prefer a recent C3 to a recent L190.

[Dave Ferris]

I've played various Estonias and they're not my cup of tea but to each to his own.

If I was at a recording studio and was doing a trio or solo CD and was given the choice between a C3 and a Estonia 190 of relatively equal age and level of prep, I don't think the Estonia would be my choice.

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

The thing about Yamahas is they can get bright and harsh when they're played a lot, played hard, and the voicing is not kept up.

 

 

In my experience that applies to any Yamaha, not just the higher end models.

[gryphon]

I've played various Estonias and they're not my cup of tea but to each to his own.

If I was at a recording studio and was doing a trio or solo CD and was given the choice between a C3 and a Estonia 190 of relatively equal age and level of prep, I don't think the Estonia would be my choice.

 

You quote yourself. Freaky.

[gryphon]

The thing about Yamahas is they can get bright and harsh when they're played a lot, played hard, and the voicing is not kept up.

 

 

In my experience that applies to any Yamaha, not just the higher end models.

You quote yourself again and continue to carry on a conversation with yourself.

 

There's no need for any of the rest of us.

[Dave Ferris]

:

You quote yourself. Freaky.

 

Only when others aren't listening or reading the whole post.

[gryphon]

Is English your first language?

[Dave Ferris]

Is English your first language?

 

Actually I play better then I speak or write--wouldn't have it any other way. Priorities I guess.

 

But in any case, you win gyrphon....the majority of the Jazz/r&b/pop/rock world has it all wrong. Enjoy your Estonia. I have to go and practice now.........

[Jim Alfredson]

Why is this getting personal? I don't see why we need to be nasty with one another. This is all subjective. I don't think anyone can claim that Yamaha makes an inferior product in terms of workmanship. So then it just comes down to tone. Some like it, some don't. That's why we have choices.

 

I have played and tuned Estonia pianos. They are very nice. I still prefer Yamaha for my own playing (I like the feel of the action). Yes they are bright, some would so too much so; but that's a matter of personal taste. If a piano is too bright, as Dave has already mentioned, one can get a tech to voice the piano or install new hammers.

 

All that said, my dream piano is either a restored 1920s Steinway D (the old) or, representing the new, a Schimmel Konzert (a 7'6" would do fine).

[gryphon]

It's not getting personal, other than me trying to respond to Dave's posts (which have changed via edits you don't see). I don't care if the OP keeps his C1 or not. It's his decision. But he asked for opinions. And then some people started making some unsubstantiated claims, including the OP. One was that a larger soundboard equates to a louder sound pressure level.

 

I am simply stating and defending facts. Some people have a problem with facts.

 

I would also note that I was not the only one who told the OP to sell his C1 for $8.5K.

 

I play better then I speak or write--wouldn't have it any other way. Priorities I guess.

Agreed. To me it's more important how I speak and write and think. You can't build a civilization on your ability to play a minor pentatonic scale, no matter how cool you think you are.

 

But this is bordering on political so I am stopping.

[gryphon]

I have played and tuned Estonia pianos.

Really? Where? Who?

[JpScoey]

I have played and tuned Estonia pianos.

Really? Where? Who?

 

Jim. . . AKA 'B3-er', is a professional piano tuner/technician (as am I), and a fantastic musician & organ player.

 

I think you're out-of-order to question his credentials.

[Aidan]

Gryphon, if you have a problem with the OP perhaps you should take it to PM. I certainly see no need to get personal with either Dave or Jim, both of whom are consistently constructive contributors here with well established professional credentials. As far as I'm aware, neither of them were questioning your own.

[Joe Muscara]

"Ignore"

[rockkeys]

Agreed.

[16251]

Of course a 5'3" grand has shorter strings than a 6', etc. but isn't the length of the key (the part you don't see/balance..) another reason to go with a longer grand.

 

I live in such a small place that I can only have an upright. I bought a used 1990 Steinway K about 2005. I love it. I also know I'll always be able to get back most of the money I spent on it. I also think it sounds as good as any grand under 6'.

[Jim Alfredson]

I have played and tuned Estonia pianos.

Really? Where? Who?

 

Jim. . . AKA 'B3-er', is a professional piano tuner/technician (as am I), and a fantastic musician & organ player.

 

I think you're out-of-order to question his credentials.

 

I didn't take this as questioning my credentials; I took it as an honest inquiry since Estonia's are not common around Michigan.

 

The one I tuned was in Philly; a friend has one. I played that one as well and one in Detroit (can't remember where; not in a home). My friend in Philly has a very nice one. The timbre is quite dark, though; but I can see why people would prefer it.

[rockkeys]

Most people don't own an S6. They own a C1 which is horrible and not at all comparable.

 

I don't think the C1 is horrible. It's a great piano for someone who's living on an honest salary looking to make the switch from an upright to a grand. Does it sound like a Steinway D, a C7, or pianos of that size? Absolutely not. It's not that type of piano. Yes, you can find older grands for the price I was offered, but trust me, buying a used piano is complex...the "deal" is not always as sweet as it appears.

[Theo Verelst]

Around 80 or so I learned to play some piano on I think a Steinway grand (amount others). Later (being more practised) I'd sometimes play grand pianos more or less at random, and the only feeling I ever developed about small grands in the music store is that they don't appeal to me, even in the mid and upper mid range. That could be coincidence, but it seems that size matters (I think other peoples' concerts and recordings too) somehow to my musical feelings, too. I'm not sure why that would be but it might well be a strict physical thing, not related to some lame human hearing artifact, but it could be zingg in the harp or boards requires a minimum distance or it sounds not so pleasing. Most logical would be bass response being louder because of larger resonance panels for long (few meters and more) wavelengths, that I would think is trivial. Maybe theres' a designed resonance tuning which starts to work pleasing over the magical 6 foot length?

[JeffLearman]

I'd suggest a larger grand - preferably a good used 6-footer. Anything less and you don't get the optimal length for bass strings.

 

Not to sound like a "piano snob", but I really like to try and stay above 6'.

To my ears, not only the bass registers, but also the middle and higher registers, don't have the same sustain or "singing quality" as with a 6' + piano.

I agree in general but find that the Yamaha C2 and the equivalent G are sweet pianos -- at least, evern one I've played -- and whie a big step from the 6'2" C3, are still lovely pianos. Choose your price point.

 

[JeffLearman]

Most people don't own an S6. They own a C1 which is horrible and not at all comparable.

 

It's like comparing a Corvette to a Geo Metro. Same company, entirely different product and target audience.

 

Don't be disingenuous. It distorts the truth and arguments.

 

It's interesting that you would prefer a recent C3 to a recent L190.

You made a gross generalization about Yamahas. Your statemnts apply to the C1, which is like nails on a blackboard to me, but not the rest of the C series. You were the one lumping all of them together, so don't be disengenuous yourself.

[JeffLearman]

Also, here's some pros and cons of verticals vs. grands from the same source.

I'm surprised that article didn't mention control of dynamics, which is entirely different between uprights and grands. This far more evident in old uprights, where actions tend to be too light. Starting in the 70's, upright action improved dramatically, but I've still never played one that felt like an grand. There's just a big difference between applying the force parallel to the key vs. perpendicularly. Clearly, grands are better, because they've been trying for decades to make uprights feel like grands and not the other way around. (Just play them and you can feel it.)

[David Loving]

The action on this Yamaha U1 I have been testing out is perfect for me. I don't like an action that is too heavy. I just do not have the space for a grand piano. Luckily if I find the right upright Yamaha, I will not be A-B ing it every day to a 9' concert grand. I am just tired of practicing on a dp.

[BluesKeys]

I would look to see what you can find in a used 6' or larger grand. And then look at the Kawai 6' new. At one time the Kawai 6' could be bought new in the $10,000- $12,000 range. I was a lover of the Yamaha sound until I bought my Kawai and I am so happy I purchased it and at 6'10" it is awesome and cost less than what you can sell your 5'3".

 

Anything from 5'8" and up is considered a grand as I recall. You really don't get the sting length or sound board area with the 5'3 that you do with a 52" upright like the U3. But with cash in hand you have options that I would look into.

[Michelle ggurl]

It sounds like you are going to keep your grand, which is probably a good choice. I can only suggest that you compare playing your instrument to a GOOD upright to make your decision from a playability/aesthetics standpoint if you are still considering swapping for an upgright. If you have financial or logistical reasons for wanting to sell (like downgrading for space and needing money), that would be different, of course.

 

If purely wondering what you can get for your money, it seems that anytime you buy new and sell used, you're going to end up on the short end of the deal; if you buy used, you can save $$, but you have to know what you're getting into, yes? Well, getting back to whether an upright or grand is "better," here is my personal experience FWIW: I have both a Kawai 5'10" grand (so a bit longer) and a Baldwin Hamilton upright (designed for conservatories, a very good build according to a couple of appraisers and technicians I've talked to and who have seen it), both from the early to mid 80s. The Kawai baby wins hands down (no pun intended) for me in terms of sound and playability. Again, I don't know, maybe with that money you were offered you could find an upright you'd enjoy playing more. If it comes down to that, "what is the most enjoyable piano I can get/have for $8,500?" you have a lot of auditioning to do.

[Theo Verelst]

With an extra zero, I'd have to ask for the Yamaha in that price range and have no trouble to buy one without auditioning. As it is I've already found it not too easy to get almost a zero less for the PC3, but decent and musical sounds ARE possible with that, which is also cool. I mean listening to George Duke's playing on the Roland V-piano I'd be absolutely sure if I currently would have the mentioned amount of money for an instrument, I'd buy that. Period. BUT, that is given I got an audio system which really digs neutral, deep and full range sounds...

 

I think from a smart consumer point of view if you'd compare with a second hand car, you could get a nice shiny one with some nice options or get a boring one and get it not a small but a big service turn before you use it, and get those bearings and essential engine parts and the brakes replaced as part of the budget so the whole experience isn't trying to use it as the Vauxhall-GTI_sport car or so but at least gets you reliably going on the musical landscape with no worries for the coming time. I recall playing a nice Steinway upright in a church, for sure not new, which easily got my juices flowing as pianist and might be waayyy more long term satisfying than a _baby_ grand. Might not work good as an attention getter at parties, though...