Jazz+ Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have yet to read a technical explanation of Roland's "SuperNATURAL" Piano Technology. How does it work? Can somebody please explain it to me? Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Two words: marketing hooey. SuperNATURAL®, Spectral Component Modeling, Virtual Memory Technology, blah blah blah. Who gives a crap? Really the only question is does it sound like a real piano? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Clonk and Clonk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thanks, I have read that. I still don't find a technical explanation as to how they achieve "stepless variation" and "smooth tone decay." Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Replied on the Piano World forums to your question but basically, sampling + modelling, I believe. Yamaha: P515, CP88, Genos 1, HX1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yeah, that page doesn't tell you squat, does it? I don't know that Roland will give up a detailed explanation of how they do it. But going all the way back to their SA engine (MKS-20), they have blended samples with other techniques like resynthesis and interpolation and modelling. It's all about getting seamless and dynamic response. The MKS-20 is STILL a remarkably responsive instrument, if not up to today's standards of fidelity. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicale Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 They either don't know themselves, or they would be so lame trying to spin it that would be made fun of....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillplaying Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (1) They mask the sample crossover. They use an algorithm to blend the velocity layers - so you don't hear the change as you play harder (like you do on their SRX pianos). (2) String Resonance They also do their string resonance thing to model sympathetic vibrations. You get these in an acoustic piano when the sustain pedal is depressed - you play a few notes - and some of the strings ring a little bit - in sympathy at its plight. In fact some notes don't get played very often and if they didn't take the opportunity to ring a little when that pedal is depressed - why they'd get all depressed too. I've heard that some players realy only use the white keys and this can make the black keys very sad. As I understand it the acoustic piano is not often employed in a funk setting. This is unfortunate as lots of funk riffs are up and down a lot of black keys and sometimes the white keys feel all left out and very un-funky. They have to stay all perky and silent while the pedal is depressed. I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 This is unfortunate as lots of funk riffs are up and down a lot of black keys and sometimes the white keys feel all left out and very un-funky. That explains why white keys are so happy when you transpose "Superstition" to E. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Old (2008) article on the history of SA Synthesis and its evolution to "Supernatural": http://emusician.com/futuretech/goes_around/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillplaying Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 This is unfortunate as lots of funk riffs are up and down a lot of black keys and sometimes the white keys feel all left out and very un-funky. That explains why white keys are so happy when you transpose "Superstition" to E. You too? I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 This is unfortunate as lots of funk riffs are up and down a lot of black keys and sometimes the white keys feel all left out and very un-funky. That explains why white keys are so happy when you transpose "Superstition" to E. You too? You mean like this? [video:youtube] Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 SuperNATURAL Piano Overview Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Find 850 of Harry's solo piano arrangements of standards and jazz tutorials at https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 The 300NX sounded and played pretty cool at Namm except again a weird phasey thing going on the F# above middle C on the "Mild Concert" variation of the Concert Grand section. The 300 has only the one "section" of pianos as compared to 3 (Concert, Studio, Brilliant) on the 700NX. Depending on your sonic preference, the 300NX and the Nord Piano I would think are the best "newer" sub 40 lb. DPs on the market. The Roland is substantially less expensive of course. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 2005 NY Steinway D Yamaha AvantGrand N3X, CP88, P515 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhodaway10 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dave, color aside how would you rank the numa piano? I wasn't sold on the 300nx ep's.....anybody feel that way too? www.brianho.net http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/brianho www.youtube.com/brianhojazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 This is unfortunate as lots of funk riffs are up and down a lot of black keys and sometimes the white keys feel all left out and very un-funky. That explains why white keys are so happy when you transpose "Superstition" to E. You too? Me 3. What we record in life, echoes in eternity. Yamaha Montage M7, Nord Electro 6D, Hammond XK1c, Dave Smith PolyEvolver & Rack, Moog Voyager, Modal Cobalt 8X, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I play (and sing) it in Cm! Yamaha: P515, CP88, Genos 1, HX1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 SuperNATURAL Piano Overview Although pleasant to watch, that video didn't really give a technical explanation of how SuperNATURAL Piano Technology works. It explained what it allegedly achieves, but not how it achieves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 From TFA about SA above (we were talking about SA in the RD-1000 thread): "SA was an innovative combination of additive and sample-based synthesis, in which the sound and behavior of specific pianos was painstakingly analyzed and resynthesized using complex waveforms as additive elements rather than simple sine waves. The result was a level of expressive capability impossible to achieve using sampled sounds alone." and "After the press conference, I talked with Toshio Yamabata, the director of Roland R&D; Shun Takai, an engineer who has been working on the technology directly; and Mike Kent, manager of technical relations for Roland R&D. They confirmed that SuperNatural, which the company has been quietly developing over the past two decades, is indeed an outgrowth of SA." and "As was the case with SA, the first step in creating a SuperNatural program is separating the various elements of the target soundfor example, the string and bow of a violin as well as the frequency, time, and phase components. These elements are then utilized to reconstruct the sound using an additive technique with complex waveforms from the original sound, along with modeled components and wave-table synthesis. Yamabata, Takai, and Kent explained that Super-Natural programs can smoothly morph from one sound to another in response to changing continuous Control Change or Velocity messages (see Fig. 1). By contrast, conventional samples must be crossfaded, and once a sample starts playing, it cant be changed without sounding completely artificial. Another advantage of SuperNatural is its ability to control various acoustic characteristics of the sound, much like physical modeling. For instance, you can change the shape of a snare drum body and the corrosion of the tines in an electric piano. Many programs also include modeled microphones and speaker cabinets that can be tweaked to produce different sounds. In the NAMM demo, the violins and cellos were quite realistic, as were the electric pianos." Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 So it appears that SuperNATURAL uses spectral analysis of samples and then additive resynthesis to create the main piano tones, which allows them to be reduced to mathmatical models and therefore smoothly morphed in response to any velocity level. Then they are adding various bits of modelling to deal with acoustic stuff like room and mic characteristics. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferris Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dave, color aside how would you rank the numa piano? I wasn't sold on the 300nx ep's.....anybody feel that way too? Hey Brian, good meeting and hanging with you. Yeah, I posted over in the Namm thread that I liked the Studiologic a lot, both action and the sound. Probably at least as much and maybe better then the Roland. But again, the fact that it only came in WHITE with no foreseeable black/grey color scheme in the near future, kinda ruled it out for me. It's too bad because I would take that in a minute over one of the Casios for a super lightweight DP. Didn't hit an EP patch on the 300NX so can't help you there. https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris https://www.youtube.com/@daveferris2709 2005 NY Steinway D Yamaha AvantGrand N3X, CP88, P515 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dave, did I read the specs right that the Numa Piano is only 22 lbs.? That brings it in under the Privias. And Dave, you could always do a Stones and paint it black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 So it appears that SuperNATURAL uses spectral analysis of samples and then additive resynthesis to create the main piano tones, which allows them to be reduced to mathmatical models and therefore smoothly morphed in response to any velocity level. Then they are adding various bits of modelling to deal with acoustic stuff like room and mic characteristics. Not to be too argumentative, but the only technical quote from the Roland techs I see in the previous post was "They confirmed that SuperNatural, which the company has been quietly developing over the past two decades, is indeed an outgrowth of SA" and "These elements are then utilized to reconstruct the sound using an additive technique with complex waveforms from the original sound, along with modeled components and wave-table synthesis" Which sounds high tech, but is actually a bit vague. They're still not really explaining how, or what they're doing. Not that I really expect them to, they've got to guard the company secrets, I can appreciate that. Just trying to be the representative voice of skepticism over here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I dunno, it's pretty straight forward to me. They are not going to go into the math of their modelling, but then nobody else is either. Spectral analysis and additive resynthesis are well known techniques. Theoretically, any possible sound can be reproduced by breaking it down into a series of sine waves of differing frequencies, phase relationships, and amplitude changes over time. So if you analyze a piano sample and break it down into these overtones which change phase and amplitude during the duration of the note, you can then describe that note with a mathematical model instead of storing the actual waveform data. If you can describe a note with a mathematical model, then you can program a DSP to output it in differing ways depending on input parameters such as velocity and what other keys are down. SA was doing a primitive version of this 20 years ago, but now processors are powerful enough to take a more detailed cut at it. What don't you understand? Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 All I'm saying is that they haven't stated specifically what they're doing. At least, that's the way it appears to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I dunno, it's pretty straight forward to me... Spectral analysis and additive resynthesis are well known techniques.... SA was doing a primitive version of this 20 years ago, but now processors are powerful enough to take a more detailed cut at it.... Seems pretty straightforward to me as well. From a more pragmatic angle, I thought I'd jump in here - as I've been using an RD-700NX on several gigs over the past month or so. SuperNatural does indeed seem a 'more detailed cut' at SA technology. Back in 1986 I worked for Gand Music, in the Chicago area, and was able to spend quite a bit of time on an RD-1000. I also had the opportunity to gig - in late 1989 - with an MKS-20: an on-loan unit from a technician friend. I found that SA created a playing environment that seemed very realistic; there was a flow, a continuity there. While the samples in my Korg SG-1 provided slightly better snapshots of a piano sound, the player interactive experience was much smoother on the RD-1000. I used to lose myself playing that keyboard. Fast forward to 2010-2011, and we have a technology far expanded upon, but still built on the foundation of SA. I've gotten lost, once again, while playing the SuperNatural Concert Grand and Studio Grand tones. The SuperNatural electric pianos are also quite good; though, unlike the great 'out of the box' pianos, the ep's are going to take a little editing to make them my own. Still, on a few of the songs my band does that include Rhodes and Wurltizer tones, the guys have taken notice of the sounds. And they're digging the acoustic pianos, big time. I used Bright Concert Grand this past weekend on an extended intro/solo for the Garth Brooks tune, "The Dance". Hearing some the FOH piano, along with my stage mix, almost gave me chills; the sound was that on. Last year at NAMM, Yamaha hit one out of the park with the new CP series. This past November Roland stepped into the same league with the SuperNatural pianos. As far as playing smoothness goes, they're a bit higher in the standings, IMO. But, DP's are a very subjective issue; it's an individual player thing. Both instruments are monsters. This leaves me curious as to how the Kawai MP-10 will stack up. I didn't get a chance to make it over to Kawai at NAMM. 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 When they shipped the SuperNATURAL Piano kit for the RD-700GX, they described it like this. SuperNATURAL Piano Upgrade for RD-700GX Just when you thought the best couldnt get better, the top-selling RD-700GX gets a SuperNATURAL Piano upgrade. Derived from Rolands award-winning V-Piano modeling technology and 88-key stereo multisampling piano technology, the RD-700GX SuperNATURAL Piano Kit adds three dimensions of seamless piano perfection to the RD-700GX. Comprising a dedicated expansion board (SuperNATURAL Piano sound engine) and a USB memory key (OS update), the kit is a dream for live performers who want the utmost in authentic playability, and for studio musicians who desire the highest-quality piano sounds. http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1056&ParentId=41 Why would one assume the later SuperNATURAL pianos are anything else? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I guess I can't get thru to you then. I've explained several times what SA was and how it works, and how that seems to have been extended in their latest technology. But you don't want to understand, I guess. You win! Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I'm assuming that reply is to Floyd, not me. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan_evett Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 That would be my guess, Joe. BTW: you have an RD-700GX, correct ? If so, have you added the SuperNatural card ? 'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo. We need a barfing cat emoticon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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