Yamaha CP1 first impressions

[Dave Ferris]

I again played the Yamaha CP1 has I was leaving NAMM.................and I have a second opinion..........

 

 

[Ian Benhamou]

The controller is definitely today's weakest link. With VIs so prevalent, we really need a next-generation controller for piano players that builds on the best that the KX88 and A80 offered about 20 years ago. A great keybed like what the CP1/CP5 promises is worth the investment.

 

I've been bitching about this for years now. Hopefully someone is listening.

[SteeVtheRipper]

There has been one, to my knowledge, electronic piano, which was not put into production (two or three were produced) that really could not be told either acousticly or in touch and feel from a concert grand. This was a couple of years ago.

 

Prior to the acquisition by Yamaha, Bosendorfer was working in conjunction with Vienna Instruments on the ultimate portable instrument - it used a Bosie Imperial action with hammers, photoelectronic sensors, a very high power computer, non-midi proprietary electronics (with thousands of discrete intervals instead of 127), a gigantic sampling base that was produced on an Imperial with Bosie's CEUS MIDI action (so there would be no human noise nor variation in amount of pressure for each level of sample. Pricing was never announced, estimates from news sources were that it would be over 50,000 euro. Its intended market was for world-class traveling artists to use as a practice instrument in their rooms between and before concerts.

 

With the Yamaha acquisition, it disappeared (although it is very possible that some of the technology may be diluted and used in Yamaha models, but it really would be nice to see it produced.

 

 

I remember when they were working on that project. It's a shame they canned it, even though 90% of us wouldn't have been able to afford one anyway, it would have been a fine example of what could be attained, and maybe it would have set the bar higher for the rest of the DP makers. Now that Yamaha owns Bosendorfer you'd think they would take advantage of it. This new CP1 would have been the perfect platform to launch some CEUS Bosey samples instead of the same old Yamaha grands, which IMO aren't that impressive, when compared to a Bosey. It would have even been cool if they made a 97 key board to use with the Bosey samples and when not using the Bosey patch that lower octave could be used to control or trigger other things. It could have acted like a switch, like on the lower octave of black keys on the xk3c.

 

 

That said I think the Cp1 is an interesting system. I like the idea of samples and modeling for the AP sound because I feel like the V-Piano lacks a certain warmth. The completely modeled EPs sound better than those on the 700GX by alot. And the thought to put in a small FM engine was nifty. It SOUNDS good over all but all the sounds I've heard have been from 3rd person on youtube videos. Can't wait to get my hands on it. I wish we would have the ability to upgrade it but they specifically said there are no plans for it. I don't understand why that isn't standard by now...oh wait i do...so you can keep spending thousands on new boards every few years.

 

I wonder though if anyone in the future will really make a high performance all in one board, with AP, EP, Clavs, AND B3 with REAL drawbars, awesome leslie sim and leslie plug, with all those fun editable bells and whistles that the cp1, vpiano, sv1, electro and xk3 have? AND have a cp1, vpiano ish action. Now THAT would be a dream.

 

 

Actually on second thought that wouldnt work because organ action is way different than piano and ep action......so i guess there never will be an all in one rig that really works.

[SteeVtheRipper]

I still think the best bang for the buck in the stage piano category is the 700gx. the action is amazing, it has the same kind of sample/modeling technology (perhaps not as detailed as the cp1) decent ep's after you tweak em some bit, decent organ with drawbar control and decent editing features, and clavs and other basic stage sounds. with enough knobs for live editing.

[MAJUSCULE]

The best solution would be a high-peformance controller that could actually switch between actions. Think about it. You press a button and Oh! Piano! Need organ? Press another button! And so forth! Now that would be a dream come true. I guess I know what my grandchildren will be getting for christmas! (I'm nowhere near grandchildren, by the way.)

[SteeVtheRipper]

haha no you are definitely not close to grandkids (i looked at your myspace) neither am I. That would we a wonderful idea but I think from an engineering POV it would be insanely complicated and complicated = expensive.

 

A better Idea would be INTERCHANGEABLE ACTIONS. I mean why not? You wouldnt really have to change them too much, just make one weighted and one not, and just make them removable from your board. Push a button and it just slides out. THAT would be sick. Then you really could have everything. I mean guitarists change guitars mid set, why can't we change actions?

[allan_evett]

We're here to help one another out; and that does include some participants from the manufacturing side of things, who - as you can see from this thread - are here to assist you, not deceive you. It aggravated me to read 'lied to' earlier in this thread. Guess what: some info is proprietary, and some of it is very complex and best understood and discussed at the engineering level. I used to often think that 'higher ups' in the industry were usually deceiving me, playing games, etc.. It got old; I got past it, grew up - again.

They're probably great family guys, and nothing personal, but I'm always wary of corporate types participating in user forums, as they tend to have their own agendas.

 

So welcome to the group. We value it as a community that explores, learns together, and communicates in a civil manner. I look forward to hearing what you discover as you search for the best digital piano. That's always been an interesting and lively discussion here.

Thanks Allan.

 

I'm actually very easy to please in the DP department. I think the hammer action keys they've been making for maybe a decade now are pretty adequate. I've been entirely happy with PC samplers for 5 or more years, and lately the modelers on the PC sound great to me. All I ask is for is a recordable piano sound in a keyboard or box that I just turn on, and nothing, except for maybe the V-Piano, is there yet.

 

Why is that do you think? Why is the DP field so far behind the technology curve?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting question, Dewster. I've tended to attribute it to the complexity of reproducing all of the components involved, mechanically and sonically, in generating sound from a piano.

I've played Ivory's C7 voice, and found it to be quite good; though after hearing Ivory II at NAMM, I will likely wait until that version is out. It sounded great, plus has several very cool features that go beyond the original Ivory. Definitely worth checking out online.

 

Meanwhile, I get quite a bit mileage out of Pianoteq 2 in my home workspace. The modeled piano voice tends to liven up a lot of my tracks. Also thinking about an upgrade to Pianoteq 3.

 

How do you like the VintAudio C7 for Kontakt ? I haven't heard that particular software piano, so I'm curious about your experience with that.

 

 

[HammondDave]

I returned to the Yamaha exhibit today and discovered that I was mistaken. Yes the CP5 has a wood keyboard like a CP1.

 

After playing the CP1 and CP5 fpr about an hour it seems obvious that the CP series performance pianos are far beyond their competitors' products.

[Federico78]

Is there anybody who played the Nord Piano and could relate about it?

 

Thanks!

[dewster]

Interesting question, Dewster. I've tended to attribute it to the complexity of reproducing all of the components involved, mechanically and sonically, in generating sound from a piano.

Though it is difficult to please everyone, if you're talking the electro-mechanical part, the key mechanisms, yeah I agree that is probably the hardest part, though it seems largely done to me, and has been for years. Right now they are just fiddling around the edges of that design space. And, though this opinion is probably in the minority here, I'm really opposed to the wood key movement as it tends to add weight (which negatively impacts portability) and wood itself isn't the most stable or durable of materials.

 

My brain is in a deeply worn groove at the moment as I have recently and voluntarily (some would say gleefully) left the organized electronics engineering industry for an indefinite period. But I think it's the modern corporate business model that's largely to blame for the conspicuously absent innovation in the sound quality of DPs. Too many brain dead managers, too many layers of administration, too many leeches at the top. Too much secrecy, too many lifers just trying to get the pension and the kids through college, not enough inspiration. I could go on and on, but it's like a huge smothering blanket on top of anything creative or innovative.

 

Meanwhile, I get quite a bit mileage out of Pianoteq 2 in my home workspace. The modeled piano voice tends to liven up a lot of my tracks. Also thinking about an upgrade to Pianoteq 3.

I've used v2 for a while now, mainly for MIDI rendering, and really like it. If I could pay ~$2K and get that in a box or board, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

How do you like the VintAudio C7 for Kontakt ? I haven't heard that particular software piano, so I'm curious about your experience with that.

You can listen to it over at the Purgatory Creek DP Shootout. It seems VintAudio is out of business (domain name taken over by unrelated ads) which is a shame. The close-miked version is my favorite, though they provided two other perspectives on the DVDs. No phasing issues, it sounds really good to me. But like I said, I'm pretty easy to please when it comes to DP sounds, just as long as there is no detectable looping, stretching, or layering going on. Those forms of sample compression are so utterly and completely stone age and glaringly audible that I really can't believe any manufacturer is still employing them.

 

By my calculations, I figure by NAMM 2020 they might finally have a DP that is up to the piano sound that was bog standard on a 2005 PC. Please excuse me, I have to go cry now.

[dewster]

I wish we would have the ability to upgrade it but they specifically said there are no plans for it. I don't understand why that isn't standard by now...oh wait i do...so you can keep spending thousands on new boards every few years.

I want something like an open DP movement to happen. Maybe someone will hack into a keyboard with enough processor and memory to put embedded Linux and Pinaoteq or a sample set in there. The way the manufacturers are dribbling horribly dated technology to us in horribly expensive, closed products has got to stop.

[Nicky]

Is there anybody who played the Nord Piano and could relate about it?

nice piano sound, very different than CP1 tonally. Yamaha gives you that perfect, bright, clean piano. The Nord is more vintage sounding, more organic, think piano sound on a recent John Mayer record.

The action on the Nord Piano is the same as the Nord Stage, too light and not piano like in my opinion. But it's still fun to play, and maybe a good compromise for some, as you're getting a 88 note DP for under 40lbs.

Rhodes, Wurly and Clav are like the Stage. The pianos will also be available for the Stage and Electro 3.

[dewster]

After playing the CP1 and CP5 fpr about an hour it seems obvious that the CP series performance pianos are far beyond their competitors' products.

Could you please elaborate beyond the thumbs down?

 

[edit]Oops - "thumbs up".

[dewster]

Played the CP1 again on my way out from the last day at NAMM.

 

It still sounded good but was a little less "wowed" on a second playing. On faster note single lines there is somewhat of a irritating decay to some notes around and above High C. It feels more even for lines in the middle of the keyboard. I'm always a little hesitant to try and put into words what I'm hearing but I didn't dig it.

Anyone know a good Chiropractor they can recommend? I just got a nasty case of whiplash.

[SK]

dewster, I share your opinions (and frustration) with acoustic piano sounds on DP's.

 

For home use, I might just spring for the CP-1. It may well be the best board out there, although 'best' may not necessarily mean 'great' in the piano dept. Piano sounds seem to be only incrementally improved in each generation with all these DP's. The V-Piano was a radical departure, but it sounds too metallic to me. The CP series appears to be generally improved all around, although I won't know if it's a radical piano improvement until I try it.

 

For gigs, I'm still mostly content with the so called "superior grand" patch in my Roland.

 

Meanwhile, I took the plunge and ordered the East West QL pianos, which should be here tomorrow. Supposedly (hopefully) it has a better instrument/player connectivity, which is my main beef with most software pianos.

[ooohhh]

This is my first post here. I read every single post in this thread because i'm planning to buy a new digital piano for our band. And i'm very excited about the new cp series.

 

But seriously, i just registered myself just to say this:

 

This dewster guy is really annoying me with his comments. I mean, there is nothing new about what he says. All of us want to have the perfect DP the industry can't give us at this time. The cp series is all about performance DP. It has the best Piano sound in hardware TO DATE, wood keys, and awesome rhodes.

 

I'm gonna buy cp5, i can tell it now. It has the best bang for a buck TO DATE.

 

oh, sorry for my bad english.

 

 

[Dave Bryce]

Supposedly (hopefully) it has a better instrument/player connectivity, which is my main beef with most software pianos.

You're not a fan of Ivory? For my tastes, it's the best software piano out there...especially the Fazioli set, but I also quite like the Bosendorfer set (post 1.5 update).

 

Joe Ierardi (who voices the Ivory pianos) briefly showed me the latest version with the new sympathetic string resonance feature...it's way cool. Didn't have a chance to play it, though.

 

dB

[dewster]

But seriously, i just registered myself just to say this:

 

This dewster guy is really annoying me with his comments. I mean, there is nothing new about what he says. All of us want to have the perfect DP the industry can't give us at this time.

Very sorry to annoy you, not my intent at all. I meant that, really. I'm here for the same reasons you are, to find out about this new line from Yamaha. All I really want to know is if there is audible looping, the minute someone says "yes" or "no" I'll be largely gone (from this thread).

 

And all this discussion about the FM thing. I mean, give us a break please.

It gives us clues as to what forms of synthesis Yamaha is using there. They won't tell us so we end up speculating. That was a very confusing issue, even Yamaha's people couldn't communicate it very clearly.

 

The cp series is all about performance DP. It has the best Piano sound in hardware TO DATE, wood keys, and awesome rhodes.

Have you tried it yet? I haven't and would like to hear anything you want to say about the CFIII patch.

 

I'm gonna buy cp5, i can tell it now. It has the best bang for a buck TO DATE. That's it

Please do demo it first. And when you do, please report back.

[timwat]

I use the Ivory Fazioli set, and I think I've complained before that I just can't seem to get it to respond to my playing in a 100% musically satisfying way. It has nothing to do with the sound set itself, which I'm quite impressed by. It's more the continuing tweak journey with the velocity curve and my controllers. I've been at it now for months and cannot seem to get it dialed in from tip-to-tail (pianissimo to triple forte). Tweak, play, lather, rinse, repeat. Still not there. For the boisterous rock and roll I'll kick your a** tunes, yeah, OK. But for 30 minutes of Stella, no, I can't get it yet. That's what made boards like the 700gx and the SV-1 more satisfying - yeah, the shound here and the timbre there and the sustain here and the note decay there and whatever - but the touch response was more intimately "mated" to the sound like an instrument. And for me that makes it a better experience even if the sound set isn't quite Ivory-level.

 

So I've reached the conclusion that to some degree, children you should leave this to professionals - as I'm clearly not doing something correct yet.

 

Am I the only guy experiencing this? I'd hate to be the odd man out.

[Nicky]

Am I the only guy experiencing this? I'd hate to be the odd man out.

nope, I have the same issue with the Fazioli....never feels quite right with my S90.

[dewster]

Meanwhile, I took the plunge and ordered the East West QL pianos, which should be here tomorrow. Supposedly (hopefully) it has a better instrument/player connectivity, which is my main beef with most software pianos.

Years ago I bought the EW Bosendorfer 270 (with Kompakt player) and found the sample set to be horrible - one specific key layer sample a few seconds in had a sound of something falling on the floor! Terrible noise floor pumping as well. When I went to sell it used, NI told me the EW EULA prevented me from transferring the license to the new owner. One of the most terrible software experiences I've ever had. Maybe they've got their act together a bit better now though? Do look at the SW license agreement very closely if you think you may want to resell it in the future (and particularly if it has any kind of activation).

[zephonic]

 

Meanwhile, I took the plunge and ordered the East West QL pianos, which should be here tomorrow. Supposedly (hopefully) it has a better instrument/player connectivity, which is my main beef with most software pianos.

 

Hi Steve, you've got an iMac, right? Please report back on how the QL Pianos tax the system, especially within a DAW. Cheers.

 

[SK]

You're not a fan of Ivory? For my tastes, it's the best software piano out there...especially the Fazioli set, but I also quite like the Bosendorfer set

I'm not anti-Ivory at all either, and I have not tried the new sympathetic string resonance. I would like to check that out.

 

It all comes down to tastes. Besides hearing demos, my only experience using Ivory was at a studio once. I liked several things about it and the woodiness in the sound, but it seemed a bit dull to me compared to the later QL demos. The player/piano connectivity seemed 'a little off' to me - maybe due to their studio setup.

 

The player connectivity on my downloaded Pianoteq demo doesn't really work for me, and I've heard similar complaints about Art Vista and Garritan, which I have not tried.

 

So I decided to spend more and take a chance on the QL pianos. If I'm not happy with them, I'll definitely be giving Ivory a second look.

[SK]

Hi Steve, you've got an iMac, right? Please report back on how the QL Pianos tax the system, especially within a DAW. Cheers.

Will do. And yes, I have an iMac.

 

I ordered the "Gold" edition, which is for slower, less powerful computers. It has all the pianos of the full version... you only lose some of the room mic options, which I can probably compensate for in Digital Performer effects.

 

dewster, sounds like a real drag with your EW/QL experience. Thanks for the heads up.

 

I'm getting this mostly for the Steinway sample, which sounds the best to me in the demos. The Bosendorfer sounded more round bodied and full, but being the largest sample of the set, could pose problems.

 

Here's hoping I have a better experience than you did, and sorry 'bout the OT.

[InWalkedBud]

this thread makes my brain hurt.

[Federico78]

Is there anybody who played the Nord Piano and could relate about it?

nice piano sound, very different than CP1 tonally. Yamaha gives you that perfect, bright, clean piano. The Nord is more vintage sounding, more organic, think piano sound on a recent John Mayer record.

The action on the Nord Piano is the same as the Nord Stage, too light and not piano like in my opinion. But it's still fun to play, and maybe a good compromise for some, as you're getting a 88 note DP for under 40lbs.

Rhodes, Wurly and Clav are like the Stage. The pianos will also be available for the Stage and Electro 3.

 

Thanks a lot, Nicky!

[Dave Bryce]

Am I the only guy experiencing this? I'd hate to be the odd man out.

nope, I have the same issue with the Fazioli....never feels quite right with my S90.

Interesting. I typically play it from my ES8's keybed, and it feels okay to me. Nothing like the Kawai grand downstairs or anything, but more what I'm looking for than the other software pianos I've played.

 

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread...

 

dB

[allan_evett]

Originally quoted by SK in the thread: "Yamaha CP1 first impressions".

 

"Meanwhile, I took the plunge and ordered the East West QL pianos, which should be here tomorrow. Supposedly (hopefully) it has a better instrument/player connectivity, which is my main beef with most software pianos."

 

------------------------------

 

 

I'm very interested in what your impression will be of the East West QL pianos. Like you, I'm fine with my live 'piano' (S90ES, PC3X, and occasionally PX-330 - all depending on the gig/stage space), but will be looking to upgrade my studio piano sound over the next couple of months. Thinking of upgrading to Pianoteq 3, from 2; but after hearing the Ivory II demo at NAMM, the quality, and depth of control impressed me to where Ivory II will be a serious contender. But being that Pianoteq has been the only software piano I have used, I am open to other high quality pianos of the 'uber sampled' variety.(As far as I'm aware, there aren't any other modeled software pianos) So, please let us know how the EW QL pianos work for you. Everyone else please feel free to contribute suggestions/reviews of software pianos you have tried/currently use, etc. I'm new to this 'big sampled piano on the computer' thing. BTW: the platform I use Mac OS X, VS. 10.5.8, w/Logic Pro. Thanks much !

 

[SK]

I will do that, Allan, probably in a new thread. I should receive it and hope to have it all installed and tested before the week's out. I may put a sample in the reharm thread too.

 

Now, back to the Yamaha CP's.

[jarrell]

I use the Ivory Fazioli set, and I think I've complained before that I just can't seem to get it to respond to my playing in a 100% musically satisfying way. It has nothing to do with the sound set itself, which I'm quite impressed by. It's more the continuing tweak journey with the velocity curve and my controllers. I've been at it now for months and cannot seem to get it dialed in from tip-to-tail (pianissimo to triple forte). Tweak, play, lather, rinse, repeat. Still not there. For the boisterous rock and roll I'll kick your a** tunes, yeah, OK. But for 30 minutes of Stella, no, I can't get it yet. That's what made boards like the 700gx and the SV-1 more satisfying - yeah, the shound here and the timbre there and the sustain here and the note decay there and whatever - but the touch response was more intimately "mated" to the sound like an instrument. And for me that makes it a better experience even if the sound set isn't quite Ivory-level.

 

So I've reached the conclusion that to some degree, children you should leave this to professionals - as I'm clearly not doing something correct yet.

 

Am I the only guy experiencing this? I'd hate to be the odd man out.

 

I wonder if the fact that MIDI volume has only 127 values has something to do with this. I also wonder if some manufacturers of high end instruments internally use more than 127 velocity values to apply to volume (they could still map those values into 127 for MIDI out transmission).

 

There is also latency to consider; a hardware DP *should* have lower latency from keydown to sound output than a software instrument which must use MIDI, USB or Firewire to get its input. While the actually transport latencies are low, who knows how long it takes various instruments to actually produce sound at their outputs once they get input. I remember Keyboard magazine doing a latency shootout on hardware synths maybe a decade ago, but other than that, there isn't a lot of information out there.