How important is tempo?

[Eric Jx]

What I mean is how important is it to you to try and match the tempo of an original artist's recording when you cover it?

 

The reason I ask is our guitar player is always criticizing our drummer for setting the tempo too fast. Technically, if you counted out BPMs, he's probably right. However the drummers claims that 1) the audience probably wouldn't notice the difference unless it's obscenely faster and 2) if you listen to most original bands play their material live, the live version will often be faster than the CD.

 

I generally try to stay out of those debates. The one problem I have is when the guitarist tries to slow the rest of the band down by playing behind the beat. At that point I tell him "the audience may or may not be able to tell we're playing the song too fast, but they sure as hell can tell when you not playing in time with the rest of the band"

[J. Dan]

I'm pretty much with you. The drummer needs to set the beat and everyone needs to follow. We tend to play most songs slightly fast, and I mean slightly. So if it's 120bpm, we may do 122-125. In my opinion, our guitar player tends to start songs slow - but it may just seem that way because I'm pumped up. But still, we all stick to the tempo. Now sometimes if one of us other than the drummer starts a song and the tempo is off, when he comes in, he may pull us a little closer to what it should be, but not a drastic change, and we follow.

 

By far, it is most important for the drummer and bass player to be in lock step. No way anybody else should be trying to influence the tempo.

[Ian Benhamou]

I have this argument with almost every band I play with. I don't care whether the audience notices the tempo difference, what I care about is if they feel the difference in the groove.

 

When a song is played too fast, it often is played rushed and all sense groove and pocket disappear. That's not to say that you can't groove when you play fast, quite the contrary. It's just that no matter the tempo, if you're rushing to play and not able to sit on the groove and play slightly behind the beat, your music will have no groove, and therefore no soul, and no feeling.

 

I bring this up very often in rehearsals, and try get everybody to try the song in question a little slower, just to feel the groove properly. I'm a strong advocate of slow practice to place everything properly in time. I'm no virtuoso or mind-blowing player, but many of the guys I play with love to play with me cause of my sense of time and my profound respect for rhythm section playing. I explain to them that it's all about slowing everything down and working the groove until it just flows. Then slowly bring up the tempo if you like, but only once you've really laid it down at a slower tempo.

[Dave Pierce]

I have this argument with almost every band I play with. I don't care whether the audience notices the tempo difference, what I care about is if they feel the difference in the groove.

 

When a song is played too fast, it often is played rushed and all sense groove and pocket disappear. That's not to say that you can't groove when you play fast, quite the contrary. It's just that no matter the tempo, if you're rushing to play and not able to sit on the groove and play slightly behind the beat, your music will have no groove, and therefore no soul, and no feeling.

 

I bring this up very often in rehearsals, and try get everybody to try the song in question a little slower, just to feel the groove properly. I'm a strong advocate of slow practice to place everything properly in time. I'm no virtuoso or mind-blowing player, but many of the guys I play with love to play with me cause of my sense of time and my profound respect for rhythm section playing. I explain to them that it's all about slowing everything down and working the groove until it just flows. Then slowly bring up the tempo if you like, but only once you've really laid it down at a slower tempo.

 

Ian just typed pretty much what I was going to say, and said it better too!

 

Being in a Santana Tribute Band, the live recordings are one of my pet peeves.

 

Dave: "Yes, I know that that the Sacred Fire version of Black Magic Woman is at 7 billion, 4 million, 32 thousand beats per minute . Can we please play it like Abraxas, though?"

 

 

--Dave

 

[wmp]

Nothing sucks the life out of a tune like playing it too fast. Even just a few clicks ruins the groove.

 

One guy I play with occasionally likes to do an instrumental version of Georgia On My Mind at about 96. I do it because he's paying and I'm a shameless whore, but I do goof on him mercilessly about it. I always play the dumbest solo I can think of, quoting as much of If I Only Had A Brain as I can stuff into it.

 

 

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Yeah, the drummer needs to set the tempo... but if he is too fast, he needs to be hit in the head with a large heavy hammer until he slows down.

 

The difference between bands that suck live and bands that really rock the crowd is in the rhythm section.

 

You cannot push and pull against the tempo (creating and releasing tension)when you are playing as fast as you can just to keep up with a runaway drummer.

 

At times, parts are impossible to play... simple rhythm parts fall apart when rushed. Like a white boy dancing, the soul is all lost.

 

Every song is NOT the same speed. Not even every part of every song is the same speed.

 

And finally, lazy drummers piss me off, because I spent years playing with a metronome, learning to play drums. Drunk or stoned drummers? I fire them, or they fire me. Takes all the joy out of playing to have to fight an incompetent rhythm section, and any drummer who thinks that his job begins and ends with hitting the skins is too much of an amateur poser for me to work with. If you don't have timing you don't have shit.

[DanS]

 

When a song is played too fast, it often is played rushed and all sense groove and pocket disappear. That's not to say that you can't groove when you play fast, quite the contrary. It's just that no matter the tempo, if you're rushing to play and not able to sit on the groove and play slightly behind the beat, your music will have no groove, and therefore no soul, and no feeling.

 

+1.

Our drummer is often fatigued by the end of the week when we jam.

He offsets this by occasionally drinking those horrible Rockstar diabetic coma drinks.

It's never purty.

[_Maximus_]

Hmmm..........

 

Slow pills for drummers

[ITGITC]

You build a performance from the bottom up.

 

If the drums & bass aren't laying down a strong, reliable foundation, nothing else matters.

 

Tempo is important. Groove is everything. And good drummers, really good drummers, are hard to find.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Hmmm..........

 

Slow pills for drummers

 

I thought that my hammer idea had merit....

[frogmonkey]

The tempo has to work for the song, and for the rhythmic parts the band has worked out. I don't think there's an absolute fact that the tempo must be close the original in order for it to work, but generally it's probably true.

 

Is your drummer playing fast for artistic reasons, meaning that he thinks the song should be faster? Or is he just being sloppy, and his lazy ego argues when you want to correct it?

 

There is a difference between a cover band playing a tune at a faster tempo, and a band playing their original tune at a faster tempo. The cover band tends to play the parts off the record. Santana's band will probably play different parts if the tune is faster.

[MuzikTeechur]

I have this argument with almost every band I play with. I don't care whether the audience notices the tempo difference, what I care about is if they feel the difference in the groove.

 

I agree. There is a certain tempo range where a song "lives" (or dies). Horn lines, signature riffs, rhythms all depend on a certain range of tempo (and I'm talking about just a few BPM). Faster than that and stuff is rushed, slower than that and tunes begin to sound like the Bataan Death March.

That being said, I saw Tina Turner do "Proud Mary" at light speed in a live performance. At last check Aretha was doing "Respect" at a pretty fast clip, too. I have a recording of Al Green doing "Let's Stay Together" VERY slowly. If you're Tina or Gladys or Smokey, I suppose you can do what you want. I think they have to change stuff up to not be completely bored out of their minds. The rest of us need to play stuff at a reasonable tempo where the song "lives" and the dancers can do their thing.

[Dave Horne]

Hmmm..........

 

Slow pills for drummers

 

I thought that my hammer idea had merit....

 

First laugh of the day. Thanks!

[JeffLearman]

If your drummer is playing too fast at rehearsal, I bet he's playing even faster live.

 

It's important to get the tempo right for everyone in the band. Your drummer is wrong to dismiss it (if that's what he's doing). If he thinks a given song really deserves to be played faster, that's different.

 

Of course, your guitarist is wrong to try to drag the beat by playing behind. I suspect that the two don't really belong in the same band. If they can't agree and work together on this, it's hopeless.

 

You all have to be playing the same song with the same arrangement at the same tempo. Anything else is a train wreck.

 

My suggestion: talk the drummer into getting a metronome, or offer to get one yourself if he's amenable. For each song, get everyone to agree on the ideal tempo (whether it's the original or not). If they can't agree, drop the song and move on. Always practice the song at the agreed tempo -- but it has to be the drummer's responsibility to ensure that.

 

Discuss using Youtubes of the original bands playing the tunes live as a reference, rather than the album versions.

 

If you drop too many songs over disagreements over tempos, that's a clue. Find a new band.

[Eric Iverson]

Yes, whatever tempo you decide on, the whole band has to lock into it.

There have been times, as a guitarist, when I felt I had to lay back slightly to prevent our drummer from going off the deep end... so I understand the feeling. He's gotten MUCH better about that stuff recently, though - not as in losing his youthful energy, as in listening to the song and band as a whole and making the singers comfortable - so that when he DOES get rhythmic, it works! Plus his technique is a lot better, so his fills are on time, not rushing, not dragging... at least not noticeably, LOL!

[David Loving]

The only thing that matters is the pocket.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Just to return to the first line in the OP: The issue is often not what the original tempo of any given song actually IS, it is the runaway drummer who wants to play everything very, very fast; and that different pieces of music have a 'groove', which will be lost if the piece is played too slow or fast. The excitement of playing should not overcome the importance of playing the piece as you have all agreed to play it.

[Tonysounds]

Most people forget that what makes music live and breathe is SPACE; most people want to shortchange rests, and of course, if the band is rushing, there's further time embezzlement.

 

I have a guitarist who thinks playing things faster makes them "groovier". Fortunately, he's smart enough to know when he's in the minority, and respects the overall performance most of the time. My main drummer likes to play things slower: it makes them bigger, and the grooves even fatter. Everyone once in a while, I'll ask him to pump it up, even if the album tempo is slower: it's about the feel of the moment, and the dancefloor.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Most people forget that what makes music live and breathe is SPACE;...

 

Yes. Drummers like to play very fast, guitar players like to play very loud, keyboard players feel the need to fill any silence with at the very least, a pad if not 73 extra notes...

[Zydecat]

Groove and pocket are the things. Unless trying to make a song you're covering "your own", seems like the tempo should be close to the original, assuming that tempo is an important musical element of the original.

 

Tempo is often less of an issue than playing too much. Achieving goovation requires leaving the right spaces, too.

[mate stubb]

Give your drummer a good dose of Ritchie Hayward. That guy can groove live at a slower tempo than anybody I have ever heard.

[iLaw]

... My suggestion: talk the drummer into getting a metronome, or offer to get one yourself if he's amenable. For each song, get everyone to agree on the ideal tempo (whether it's the original or not). If they can't agree, drop the song and move on. Always practice the song at the agreed tempo -- but it has to be the drummer's responsibility to ensure that.

What Jeff said.

 

A metronome with a flashy light and a digital readout. The tempo is as important a decision as the key.

 

Larry.

 

[Eric Jx]

Most of you are on the same page.

 

Ian said it first and I have to thank him for his insight. It makes all the sense in the world. It's standard advice for the piano that you should practice it slow enough so you can get through it without mistakes, and then when you've mastered the piece at a slower speed, raise the tempo to where you think it should be. I never thought of applying that to the band as a whole.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

Yeah, I think we all agree.

 

Two points I'd like to add. First, the drummer doesn't always set the beat, does he? Perhaps the guitar player should try counting off some of the songs in question and the band can see what happens.

 

Second, do you ever record yourselves? I'd recommend doing that and listening back as a group and deciding if the chosen tempo works.

[Eric Jx]

As far as our drummer's mindset...

 

I think he plays at the tempo that he feels works best for the song. When a song is over, he will accept criticism regarding the tempo he set. However he gets bothered when either:

 

1) The guitarist try to slow the song down mid-song (or)

2) The guitarist stops playing mid song because he's unhappy with the tempo.

 

 

Again, to my ears, I don't view that this is a cronic problem with our drummer. However our guitarist feel differently.

 

I'm glad I posted the question. Because of all your replies, I'm now willing to consider that the guitarist's part may be more dependant on groove than my parts (in some songs), and it isn't just another case of him being argumentive.

[Eric Jx]

Yeah, I think we all agree.

 

Two points I'd like to add. First, the drummer doesn't always set the beat, does he? Perhaps the guitar player should try counting off some of the songs in question and the band can see what happens.

 

Second, do you ever record yourselves? I'd recommend doing that and listening back as a group and deciding if the chosen tempo works.

 

There are songs like "Kiss me deadly" or "separate ways" where I'm the one setting the tempo. There are other songs like Jenny 867-5309 where the guitarist sets the tempo.

 

During the intro to Kiss me deadly, our current singer has an issue where she lags behind the beat I establish, and I tend to want to slow down to match her. But when the whole band kicks in, the drummer will pick it up so the rest of the song doesn't drag.

 

 

[Tonysounds]

As far as our drummer's mindset...he gets bothered when either:

 

1) The guitarist try to slow the song down mid-song (or)

2) The guitarist stops playing mid song because he's unhappy with the tempo.

 

Your guitarist needs to be bitchslapped.

[Eric Jx]

One guy I play with occasionally likes to do an instrumental version of Georgia On My Mind at about 96. I do it because he's paying and I'm a shameless whore, but I do goof on him mercilessly about it. I always play the dumbest solo I can think of, quoting as much of If I Only Had A Brain as I can stuff into it.

 

Back in my 30s I decided to take weekly piano lessons and pick up where I left off when I quit lessons when I was 13. One of the first assignment the teacher gave we was to come up with a reharm of Georgia on my mind. I remember him telling me he LOVED how I slowed the song down, and gave it a laid back groove.

 

The thing was, I was really just playing the tempo Ray Charles did. It only seemed laid back because the instructor rushed it.

[Ian Benhamou]

A good way to set tempos live, is to pause, close your eyes and hear the first 2-3 measures in your head, then count 2 full measures before cuing the band in, vs the typical 1-2-3-4 drum stick clap. I've seen 2 live acts do this and not surprisingly both these bands have 2 of the greatest drummers of the last 10-15 years. The bands were Dave Matthews Band with the Carter Beauford and the other was Steely Dan with Keith Carlock on drums.

[Eric Jx]

A good way to set tempos live, is to pause, close your eyes and hear the first 2-3 measures in your head, then count 2 full measures before cuing the band in, vs the typical 1-2-3-4 drum stick clap. I've seen 2 live acts do this and not surprisingly both these bands have 2 of the greatest drummers of the last 10-15 years. The bands were Dave Matthews Band with the Carter Beauford and the other was Steely Dan with Keith Carlock on drums.

 

I'll have to pass that pointer on to our drummer. Who could argue with Carter Beauford?