Joe P Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 We use an 8 channel Mackie powered mixer to run our PA. Usually it is on stage with us. We have an outdoor thing coming up and we want to put it in the audience using a 16 channel snake one of my friends has. Is it okay to send powered signals back to the mains and monitors through lines in close proximity to the inputs? This is a commercially made snake with (4) 1/4" lines for the returns. My friend thinks that normally the 1/4" lines would feed an on stage amp to power the speaker cabinets and thus the level in the snake would lower, but he is not sure. Thanks! Regards, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 We use an 8 channel Mackie powered mixer to run our PA. Usually it is on stage with us. We have an outdoor thing coming up and we want to put it in the audience using a 16 channel snake one of my friends has. Is it okay to send powered signals back to the mains and monitors through lines in close proximity to the inputs? This is a commercially made snake with (4) 1/4" lines for the returns. My friend thinks that normally the 1/4" lines would feed an on stage amp to power the speaker cabinets and thus the level in the snake would lower, but he is not sure. Thanks! Regards, Joe Izzat a snake in yer pocket... or are you jus' glad to see me? Running power from the Mackie powered mixer through the snake to the speakers might work - or it might not. To be on the safe side, I'd run speaker cables from the Mackie powered mixer back to the speakers - at all times. KLONK for more information... Tom "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Most snakes do not use wiring of sufficient gauge to handle powered signals. If the amps are onstage, and you're sending a signal to them, the snake should work fine. But, if you're going out of the power amp, you may burn up the snake. Like Gassy said, use speaker cables. "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe P Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Thanks, guys. We came up with another snake, so we'll likely use one for the ins and one for the outs. Regards, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ Cornish Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 You don't want to use a snake for speaker cables AT ALL. The issue is not proximity to the input channels, the issue is that the wire is not big enough in a standard snake to handle the power of a speaker cable. Run a snake for your inputs, and run speaker cables for the speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pierce Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 You don't want to use a snake for speaker cables AT ALL. The issue is not proximity to the input channels, the issue is that the wire is not big enough in a standard snake to handle the power of a speaker cable. Run a snake for your inputs, and run speaker cables for the speakers. Absolutely correct. Using a snake for powered signals will result in Bad Things. Use speaker cables to run back to the speakers. --Dave Make my funk the P-funk. I wants to get funked up. My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKey Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 +100 Your line returns are NOT meant for speaker lines. It will most likely sound really bad and risk damage. You don't want to use a snake for speaker cables AT ALL. The issue is not proximity to the input channels, the issue is that the wire is not big enough in a standard snake to handle the power of a speaker cable. Run a snake for your inputs, and run speaker cables for the speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 +100 Your line returns are NOT meant for speaker lines. It will most likely sound really bad and risk damage. You don't want to use a snake for speaker cables AT ALL. The issue is not proximity to the input channels, the issue is that the wire is not big enough in a standard snake to handle the power of a speaker cable. Run a snake for your inputs, and run speaker cables for the speakers. Running a powered line through a snake will sound bad for a while, then will stop working all together when you burn up the wiring inside the snake, short it out, and blow the amplifier. DO NOT USE THE SNAKE!!!! "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe P Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 I'm beginning to get the impression that I should not use the snake. We'll use separate wires. Thanks guys! Regards, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Nightime Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I'm beginning to get the impression that I should not use the snake. We'll use separate wires. Thanks guys! Regards, Joe Another crisis averted. "In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome. So God helped him and created woman. Now everybody's got the blues." Willie Dixon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I'm beginning to get the impression that I should not use the snake. We'll use separate wires. Thanks guys! Regards, Joe Another crisis averted. Using a snake for powered signals will result in Bad Things. --Dave I question whether Dave Pierce has a copyright on Bad Things. It wouldn't bother me so much unless it was performed in a bar or restaurant without said bar or restaurant paying their fair share to BMI and those folks who take care of such like that. I find that I think about these things all the time. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I don't know why anyone would expect the amp power to burn out the wires in the snake, this is just so fantastical... well, skip it. The answer is correct, even if the horror story is not. The best idea about speaker/power amp proximity is that they should be as close together as possible, and that you should use the largest diameter speaker cable that you can make fit into your connectors. Voltage loss occurs over distance and by wire diameter. The thiner the wire, the greater the loss over any given distance. Notice at the next concert you attend... amp racks tend to be just behind speaker hangs, or flown with speaker hangs, or in the case of some of the manufacturers, the amps are in the speaker cabs. Shorter runs are better, fatter wires are better no matter what. (barring a constant voltage system, which you don't see for music applications very often...) The new Lipinski studio monitor stands are designed to hold the amp, so the cable runs are maybe 18 inches. My Dunlavy/Cello system uses 10 gauge, running less than 8 feet. Come to think of it, a cheap amp might have trouble pushing signal down that thinner wire. But the wire ain't going to burn on the power one might generate from a Mackie powered mixer. "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedKey Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Agreed. The real problem is when the speakers sound awful and are really low volume even when driven hard due to voltage loss (aka: hot cables). Then the guy in the lawn tries to compensate by driving the output to square waves and blowing the speakers. All bad... and the horse is pretty dead now. Come to think of it, a cheap amp might have trouble pushing signal down that thinner wire. But the wire ain't going to burn on the power one might generate from a Mackie powered mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clpete Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 The best idea about speaker/power amp proximity is that they should be as close together as possible, and that you should use the largest diameter speaker cable that you can make fit into your connectors. Voltage loss occurs over distance and by wire diameter. The thiner the wire, the greater the loss over any given distance. Notice at the next concert you attend... amp racks tend to be just behind speaker hangs, or flown with speaker hangs, or in the case of some of the manufacturers, the amps are in the speaker cabs. Shorter runs are better, fatter wires are better no matter what. (barring a constant voltage system, which you don't see for music applications very often...) The new Lipinski studio monitor stands are designed to hold the amp, so the cable runs are maybe 18 inches. My Dunlavy/Cello system uses 10 gauge, running less than 8 feet. ++ It would be best if you had an additional power amp/amps on stage to run the speakers. Use the non powered outputs on the Mackie run through the snake to the power amp. Otherwise the mixer will have to be set close enough to the stage to allow the speaker cables to reach the cabinets. We play for free. We get paid to set up and tear down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Pierce Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Using a snake for powered signals will result in Bad Things. --Dave I question whether Dave Pierce has a copyright on Bad Things. It wouldn't bother me so much unless it was performed in a bar or restaurant without said bar or restaurant paying their fair share to BMI and those folks who take care of such like that. I find that I think about these things all the time. You know, I use these phrases in work-related email all the time, and I usually type them thusly: Bad Thing, Good Thing and Right Answer. I'm not even sure why I left out the in this post. Did you somehow subliminally catch that, Tom? Or did the sheep tell you... --Dave Make my funk the P-funk. I wants to get funked up. My Funk/Jam originals project: http://www.thefunkery.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyMary Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 +1 on what everybody says. Stage: MOX6, V-machine, and Roland AX7 Rolls PM351 for IEMs. Home/recording: Roland FP4, a few guitars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 I'm not even sure why I left out the in this post. Did you somehow subliminally catch that, Tom? Or did the sheep tell you... --Dave I can't even spell subliminally, Dave. All I know is the sheep aren't talking - that's a really Good Thing about sheep, don'tchaknow. But let's stop talking about snakes. I had a really bad dream last night... the snakes got me. I'm lucky to be alive this morning. Bring back the sheep. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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