R.I.P. Michael Jackson

[Legatoboy]

yeah, i guess for some it's a fine line. Like Shiva (not that I'm into Indian goddesses that much) but it does seem that destruction is part of creation. Even inside people!

 

I guess the sources of the skill or beauty do not have to follow the prescription of a 'normal' personality. An alpha state is an alpha state no matter what it is bolted to!

 

 

 

there have been a lot of child molesters in the classical music garrisons slogging through the centuries!

Sure. Schubert was one, it seems. And what's weird, all his music tells the contrary.

 

[MAJUSCULE]

Michael Jackson was the only thing that mattered to me when I was 2. That was in 1982, the year Thriller came out. I wanted to be him. It's amazing, I could barely speak in complete sentences yet his music spoke to me and made me want to dance. That was the spark which led to me being a musician.

 

Every night when I was a young kid, my brothers and I would have a bath, get into our pajamas and go to the basement. We would then proceed to dance wildly all over the place to MJ, in particular the Thriller tape. This is an integral part of my childhood, and, coupled with the fact that we didn't have a tv until I was 7 and didn't have cable until I was 15, I believe is a big reason that music is one of the most imporant things in mine and my brothers' lives.

[Tonysounds]

Let's not gloss over the reality - he was an intensely screwed up individual, possibly in very disgusting and reprehensible ways. Just because someone died doesn't mean we need to forget the entire person. That's incredibly dishonest. His music might have been popular, and he might have been a great singer and performer, but that isn't all that defined him...

 

 

Dude, you're on a roll lately... why all the hating? What gives? If you don't like MJ (or soccer), give those who do a break please.

 

I don't view it as hating. Kanker doesn't accuse Jacko of anything. I agree with him: just because he made great music doens't exempt him from the things he may or may not have done.

 

That said, I don't know that Jacko was a pedophile, I'd like to believe that he wasn't, but instead was a product of some real dysfunctional parenting, and suffered from extreme arrested development.

[steadyb]

I'd say we have no idea what any of our favorite artists have done behind closed doors, either to themselves or others. But in any case the art remains, and it was that art that moved people in a positive way, regardless of who created it.

Pick anyone's (on this forum) 5 all time favorite musician/songwriter/performers and tell me that you know with complete certainty that they are beyond judgement/suspicion of doing anything that you wouldn't approve of?!?!

 

Impossible. If the media didn't report it does that mean they didn't do it?

 

If all you ever knew was the song or piece of music that moved and inspired you, without any of the speculation, innuendo, rumor, or "news" about the person who made it, is their art better?

[steadyb]

Their personal life is just that... "theirs" and "personal".

 

If you enjoyed their art or were moved by it, it's because it was good enough (to you) to do so. Whether or not it was created by the "person of the year" is irrelevant.

[Cloud_9]

It seems to me that all great minds and talents in history have been in some way deeply disturbed or deviant in some way or another. In no way am I inferring that madness is proportionate to genius, or that one cant exist without the other, but I cannot think of any truly significant historical figure in history without recalling some story or allegation of deviance, madness, abuse, some tragic story or dirty secret.

 

However, I do believe that a great contributor to modern music has passed away, and out of respect for family and friends all allegations should be put aside for the time being. This is not censorship or defending the unworthy, but it is indeed a lack of respect to bring forth these topics at this time.

 

Imagine that MJ was your brother, cousin, best friend or whatever, how would you feel reading these posts?

 

Give it a rest for now. There will be plenty of time left for debate. I myself have some pretty good points to make, I just dont feel that now is the right time.

 

Peace.

 

 

[Cloud_9]

Their personal life is just that... "theirs" and "personal".

 

If you enjoyed their art or were moved by it, it's because it was good enough (to you) to do so. Whether or not it was created by the "person of the year" is irrelevant.

 

damn straight.

[JpScoey]

 

A great talent , but a sad character.

 

With all that plastic, I wonder if he'll be recycled?

[SK]

I'm agreeing with some of the last posts. I can't pass judgement on something I can't really know or understand, or let that affect my musical listening. No doubt, MJ was screwed up; he made some effective music, he did some good things, and probably bad. (If I had a kid, I wouldn't have dropped him off with MJ!) I never bought his recordings and wasn't a huge fan, but I enjoyed the energy.

 

By the way, for those who separate the artist from the art, is there no limit to that separation?

Hmm... now there's a question. I understand an artist's personal life can turn you off to everything he's done. But I generally think there shouldn't be a limit to the separation of art and artist, as long as their work has some merit.

 

A parallel I made to a student once (I give weird non-musical examples sometimes): film director Roman Polanski made some artistic films, some of which I enjoyed, but I wouldn't walk across the street to shake hands with him. He certainly has issues, which can probably be traced to his childhood when he was used for target practice by Nazi soldiers. His bizarre experiences gave a unique perspective to his talent. That doesn't mean I have to condone his personal life - I don't need to read an artist's biography to approve his personal life to enjoy his work.

 

Many great musicians had problems and some committed crimes (like when Bird tried to steal Sonny Stitt's alto or Mingus attacked Ellington's trombone player with an axe) but it doesn't outweigh significant musical contributions.

 

Not to compare MJ with higher levels of artistry, but as a phenomenal talent in pop music, it applies. But it doesn't mean you, I, or anyone has to like him, or that no one should.

[Bridog6996]

The problem with trying to judge someone's personal life is that you don't know what it's like being in their shoes. MJ was acquitted of child molestation charges. The first kid that accused him was caught admitting he lied, and the kids mother even denied any wrong-doing on Jackson's part. Nobody seems to remember that, though.

 

So, it's a shame that MJ's personal life has been summed up by events that likely never even happened. When you're the most famous person in the world, the media wants to turn you into a freak, because that's what'll make the tabloids fly off the shelves. Unfortunately, that stuff came to dominate the public's image of him to point where everyone just took it for granted that he was off his rocker. The guy lived the real-life Truman Show. Give him a break.

 

[Dave Horne]

A great talent , but a sad character.

 

With all that plastic, I wonder if he'll be recycled?

 

First laugh of the day. Thanks!

 

 

[Ian Benhamou]

The guy lived the real-life Truman Show. Give him a break.

 

 

For real!!!!

[Dave Horne]

I'd cut Jacko some slack if he were accused of income tax evasion, smoking dope or even pulling a Pee-wee Herman, but I draw the line at child molestation.

 

CNN stated that he reportedly paid $10,000,000 to the family of one boy.

 

My wife knows several university students who paid for his upcoming London concerts (including hotel accommodations and airfare). His poor health was no secret which leads me to speculate that he and his people knew he wasn't going to honor that contract.

 

This will all be interesting reading ... and will play out slowly .... and go on f o r e v e r.

 

 

[zephonic]

The LA Times:

 

Jackson's attorney charged that the boy's father, a would-be screenwriter who had tried to obtain Jackson's backing for a project, was trying to extort money. The criminal investigation was closed after the boy refused to testify. A civil lawsuit was settled for a reported $20 million.

 

A second case unfolded in November 2003, when Santa Barbara authorities, acting on accusations by a 13-year-old cancer patient who had stayed at Jackson's ranch, arrested the star. The 14-week trial featured celebrity witnesses such as Jay Leno and Macaulay Culkin and Jackson's own bizarre antics, such as showing up for court in pajama pants and a tuxedo jacket. It ended June 13, 2005, with his acquittal on all counts.

 

Other news agencies talk about a "reported" 10 million. When the figures vary that widly, I would consider that a lack of hard facts. But I guess "Guilty until proven innocent" still applies here.

[Dave Horne]

A civil lawsuit was settled for a reported $20 million.

 

That's interesting.

[JpScoey]

A civil lawsuit was settled for a reported $20 million.

 

That's interesting.

 

Well it's said there's no smoke without fire.....

 

talking of which - could you imagine a cremation... & the light show that would provide!!!

 

He's certainly not biodegradable!

[Tusker]

Geoff,

 

My thoughts are with you and your friends at this time.

 

Humanity is a passing cloud over an eternal landscape. Each of us can be blown apart by the wind. Yet we try to impart some shape and beauty and keep ourselves together long enough to do so. Rest in peace MJ.

 

Jerry

[Cliffk]

Michael Jackson was a seminal musical influence on me, and is a profoundly significant loss to popular music.

[Aidan]

I hear what people are saying about separating artists and their art. In my previous life as a journalist, I got the chance to interview an up-and-coming comedian whose stuff I found very funny, had championed to others and he went on to become a nationally-known TV figure here in the UK.

 

I was crushed when he turned out to be an utter ***hole in the phone interview, stonewalling all my (utterly uncontroversial) questions and not leaving me even with enough material to get a piece out of, unless it was to say what an utter ***hole he was - and unfortunately or not, it wasn't that kind of paper.

[Bridog6996]

I'd cut Jacko some slack if he were accused of income tax evasion, smoking dope or even pulling a Pee-wee Herman, but I draw the line at child molestation.

 

So being accused is all it takes for you to make up your mind? I'd hate to be the guy on trial the day you show up for jury duty.

 

And Lord knows nobody would ever try to extort one of the richest men in the world by falsely accusing him of some heinous crime. That never happens...

 

I'm no fan of child molestation either, but it's one of those things where even the accusation will ruin somebody's life. One kid admitted he lied, the other had a notoriously sleazy moocher of a father (who also tried to extort comedian George Lopez) and a mother who was, quite frankly, insane. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to see there was something fishy going on. MJ cooperated fully and was very convincingly acquitted in my opinion, not just "OJ acquitted." If he paid them anything, it was probably just to give them what they wanted in the first place so they would leave him alone, and he could just be done with it. But again, with that kind of crime, being acquitted doesn't really seem to matter.

[Dave Horne]

So being accused is all it takes for you to make up your mind? I'd hate to be the guy on trial the day you show up for jury duty.

 

Nah, just the paying of tens of millions of dollars to silence someone would do it for me.

 

If the glove fits, then we must ....

[NoahZark]

Jeff K:

 

To answer your question from earlier, I'm certainly not a devout fan of Michael Jackson's music (as others here apparently are), but I'm not NOT a fan either. Like millions of peole, I bought Thriller when it was released, and to this day, I have the Jackson 5's greatest hits on my iPod. (For some reason, it's easier for me to separate the art from the artist when Michael was a boy, because I see him as far less corrupted at that stage of his life. Indeed, there was a sweetness and innocence in those younger days that made his prodigious talent all the more appealing.)

 

Also, as I mentioned, I think I've said my piece on the "separation" debate. I actually believe that reasonable minds can disagree on that issue, which is why I was asking the questions I did earlier (and thank you, SK, for your well articulated and thoughtful response).

 

Noah

 

 

[marino]

Each of us can be blown apart by the wind. Yet we try to impart some shape and beauty and keep ourselves together long enough to do so.

These are beautiful and very true words. Thanks Tusk!

 

 

 

[Griffinator]

But what about the stuff you don't know about? Would you be able to continue to appreciate Pink Floyd (I see DSOTM in your profile pic) if you'd found out that Nick Mason was a pedophile, or an arsonist, or something equally repugnant?

 

Interesting that you cite Pink Floyd, because I've consistently been of the mind that MJ needed the same kind of help that Syd Barrett and Roger Waters needed (and eventually got)

 

Sorry to all you who have already condemned Jackson, but I suggest you take a long hard look at not only the trial notes from that criminal case against him, but also the interesting sidebar that the people who had plenty of money (like Caulkin, for example) said nothing inappropriate happened at Neverland, while the people with something to gain told different stories.

 

Unlike the OJ trial, the prosecution's case against MJ was as flimsy as flimsy could get. No hard evidence, just the testimony of a family that already had a history of extortion (mother scored a $175,000 settlement from a clothing store where the family was arrested for shoplifting by claiming that the security guards beat her up and molested her, not to mention her history of welfare fraud) and coaching their kids to make shit up to their financial gain. The rest of their case was an end-around on the law, producing "character" witnesses, people who claimed Jackson molested them in the past, again with conflicting stories, even between siblings.

 

Don't compare MJ to OJ. We're not talking about a situation where the defense played race cards (it was an all-white jury, that card wasn't available) and the prosecution had DNA and other physical evidence to support their case.

 

The guy was a screwed up mess, for sure, but being a screwed up mess doesn't automatically make you a child molester.

 

I, for one, will remember him as I do many, many other iconic musicians - as an incredibly talented, yet just as incredibly tortured soul.

 

May he finally find the peace that eluded him in life.

[Dave Horne]

Jackson's image took a further turn for the worse when his older sister La Toya Jackson accused him of being a pedophile, a statement she later retracted.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jackson

 

 

[ITGITC]

Controversy aside...

 

I was fifteen (15) when The Jackson 5 hit the airwaves with songs like:

 

ABC

I Want You Back

The Love You Save

I'll Be There

Never Can Say Goodbye

Got To Be There

 

...and many more.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Most of the early Jackson 5 singles were written and produced by four Motown songwriters and producers Berry Gordy, Alphonzo Mizell, Deke Richards, and Freddie Perren who were collectively billed as The Corporation. They crafted for The Jackson 5 a sound that mixed the traditional "Motown Sound" with teenage-honed lyrics that they termed "bubblegum soul".

 

The group's studio recordings were first handled by Motown's famed in-house studio band The Funk Brothers during their brief recording tenure at Hitsville and later instrumentation was played by many of the members of The Wrecking Crew, which formed Motown's Hitsville West studio band.

 

The Funk Brothers was the nickname of Detroit, Michigan, session musicians who performed the backing to most Motown Records recordings from 1959 until 1972, when the company moved to Los Angeles.

 

The Funk Brothers played on Motown hits such as "My Girl", "I Heard It Through the Grapevine", "Baby Love", "Signed, Sealed, Delivered I'm Yours", "Papa Was a Rollin' Stone", "The Tears of a Clown", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", and "(Love is Like a) Heat Wave".

 

==============

 

I enjoyed many of Michael Jackson's recordings. But it was these songs at this time in my life that had the most influence on me. Many were melodic enough that I transcribed them and played them with my trio. Yeah, I was playing gigs before I could drive - I had to load my equipment in the family station wagon and Mom drove me to the gig & picked me up afterwards. Luckily it wasn't long before I turned 16 and was my own chauffeur and roadie.

 

And that's what I think of when someone mentions Michael Jackson.

 

Tom

 

 

 

[Griffinator]

Jackson's image took a further turn for the worse when his older sister La Toya Jackson accused him of being a pedophile, a statement she later retracted.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jackson

 

 

The only person in that family more screwed up than Michael was LaToya. He looked completely sane compared to her...

[Griffinator]

And that's what I think of when someone mentions Michael Jackson.

 

Tom

 

Cool story, Tom. And a good way to remember someone who had that much impact on your early musical career.

[zyzik]

Jackson's image took a further turn for the worse when his older sister La Toya Jackson accused him of being a pedophile, a statement she later retracted.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jackson

 

 

The only person in that family more screwed up than Michael was LaToya. He looked completely sane compared to her...

 

Artist is supposed to be weird and screwed up, that's why he is artist and not a regular Joe.

 

 

I enjoyed many of Michael Jackson's recordings. But it was these songs at this time in my life that had the most influence on me. Many were melodic enough that I transcribed them and played them with my trio. Yeah, I was playing gigs before I could drive - I had to load my equipment in the family station wagon and Mom drove me to the gig & picked me up afterwards. Luckily it wasn't long before I turned 16 and was my own chauffeur and roadie.

 

And that's what I think of when someone mentions Michael Jackson.

Tom

 

 

and that's all that matters.

 

 

 

[b3keys]

Hee-Hee-Hee!

Vocal sounds that will ever remain his trademark!

 

RIP, MJJ