Choice between XS8/ PC3x For Onstage W/ Muse Receptor..?

[surreal mccoy]

Since my return to the digital piano/ synth shopping arena @ 2 months ago, I've tried to spend as much time as possible auditioning the various boards. After doing a bit of research and listening, I've narrowed the 88-key board choice to either a Yamaha Motif XS8 or Kurzweil PC3x. This will be used in conjunction with a Muse Receptor Pro 2 w/ Komplete. So quality pianos, strings, organs & horns will be available via the Receptor. My main objective with the keyboard (in addition to the controller functions) would be quick access to onboard high quality rompler voices.

This will be used only in church with a Praise & Worship band. So I'm not concerned about any set up issues, just which board's voices may cut thru best within a live mix..?

 

I'm hoping to hear from XS/ PC3 users with pros & cons onstage....

 

Thanks ahead....

 

Alan

[timwat]

I'm confused a little Alan - with the Receptor covering pianos, strings, organs and horns, what kind of voices are you looking for from the board? By "voices", do you mean "choir voices" or am I misunderstanding completely?

 

I'm not sure what the Receptor wouldn't do that you're looking for from the Yammie or Kurz.

[Aidan]

There does seem to be a fair amount of redundancy in what you're planning but maybe that's the idea. I recently demo'd the Kurz and its keybed is considerably lighter than I remember the one XS8 I ever played, so would perhaps be more of a compromise solution if you're playing everything on the one keyboard.

 

A lot of the XS voices, in my experience, need tweaking for live work. A lot are smothered in unwanted fx and there's a great variation in relative volumes which you may need to sort out too. Guitars on XS are unbeatable, though!

[surreal mccoy]

Hi Tim,

 

Sorry if I sound confusing....I'm quite good at that....;~)

 

While I plan to keep the Receptor pre loaded with an acoustic piano voice, B4 organ, orchestral strings, and a brass/ woodwind horn section, I also wish to have quick separate access to the rompler (XS or PC3)for various synths, EP's, pads....just anything I might need "on the fly" without having to reload the Receptor.

 

Does that make more sense...?

 

Alan

[surreal mccoy]

There does seem to be a fair amount of redundancy in what you're planning but maybe that's the idea. I recently demo'd the Kurz and its keybed is considerably lighter than I remember the one XS8 I ever played, so would perhaps be more of a compromise solution if you're playing everything on the one keyboard.

 

A lot of the XS voices, in my experience, need tweaking for live work. A lot are smothered in unwanted fx and there's a great variation in relative volumes which you may need to sort out too. Guitars on XS are unbeatable, though!

 

As awesome as the concept of the Receptor may sound, I've been warned to treat this unit as an add-on vs. an all in one solution.....especially onstage....

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Aidan....

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I can't give you much detail about the Motif, I've played a couple of them briefly, but don't know them well. But - I've had my PC3X for a year now - I bought a PC3 a couple of weeks ago also to use in Praise & Worship (the 3X lives in my shop/studio).

 

I have been using a K 2661 for the more portable and movable keyboard, but wanted more piano like action, and especially the quality of sounds. My first use of the PC3 is in preparing for our Easter musical - the quality of sounds is excellent. The new String ROM adds a large number of different sectionals, and lets me choose exactly what will complement. The orchestral sounds surpass the 2661. I have an older K2000VP and PC2 that stay at the church (avoids loadin and loadout for routine services).

 

In playing ensemble with the group, the sounds are not quite as noticable; but I'm doing a couple of cello solo parts that really don't sound electronic. (Of course, you have to figure that I liked the 3X pretty well, or I would have looked for something else for a carry about keyboard).

 

Another factor: you indicate that you would be using this keyboard to control a Receptor. The PC3 has one of the most capable MIDI controllers that I have seen. Enough sliders, switches, 3 footswitches, 2 continuous control pedal inputs; and they can be assigned in a Setup to almost any MIDI combination.

 

Editing VAST does require a learning curve, but building setups to make zones and splits; then mixing setups and patches into a Quick Load bank - not too difficult, and it is really great to just jump from one patch to the next instead of having to remember the 3 or 4 digit patch number each time.

 

My first setup at church was only the K2000, with a 49 key midi controller into a notebook running NI B4. Sounded good, but too much hassle to try to make changes on the fly live.

 

 

[timwat]

Ok, that makes sense, Alan.

 

Can't see you'd go wrong with either one. Internal sounds - each will have strengths vs. the other, but either one should sit well in a mix for you. Controller and quick access banks - don't know anything 'bout the Motif, but setting up quick access on Kurz is very simple and fast.

 

So it seems like the big issue of personal preference is keybed action. You're going to be playing everything from the one board so I'd think you'd want to really love the action.

 

Seems like a nice gig-worthy rig you're planning. The Receptor should give you the best 'staple food groups' that (compatible) plug-ins offer, and if it ever coughs up a hairball in the middle of a set, either keyboard's internal sounds will sit nicely in a pinch.

[eric]

I think you're stepping into overkill land with a high-powered rompler plus a Receptor. I honestly think you can do what you need to do with a good rompler. If this is for gigs and you are carrying the freight, go with the Kurzweil or a Yamaha S90ES.

[surreal mccoy]

I think you're stepping into overkill land with a high-powered rompler plus a Receptor. I honestly think you can do what you need to do with a good rompler. If this is for gigs and you are carrying the freight, go with the Kurzweil or a Yamaha S90ES.

 

I see a high-powered rompler in conjunction with the Receptor as kind of balancing each other out. With any rompler I've played, I've found certain strengths and weaknesses within their overall voices. The PC3x seems to have strong EP's, orchestral strings, and deep synth abilities....yet I'm a little leery of their acoustic pianos and definitely leery of their horn voices! The Motif seems a bit overkill for me because I'd never use the sequencer or sampler....yet their acoustic pianos and horn voices trump the Kurz IMO....I was really hoping to see Yamaha introduce the S90XS at NAMM....;(

 

So....if I can maintain the absolute best few B & B sounds ready to go in the Receptor along with instant access to all other rompler voices, I should be set...

 

BTW.....as I said earlier, the set up won't be an issue as I won't be traveling with this rig.

 

Alan

[timwat]

I think you're stepping into overkill land with a high-powered rompler plus a Receptor.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[eric]

It is not a bad thing, but I don't want to see someone buying into this on either side of it. The original poster is talking about buying all of this at one time and I think he would be better served by taking baby steps rather than buying a high end rompler and a Receptor in one fell swoop.

[surreal mccoy]

It is not a bad thing, but I don't want to see someone buying into this on either side of it. The original poster is talking about buying all of this at one time and I think he would be better served by taking baby steps rather than buying a high end rompler and a Receptor in one fell swoop.

 

Eric,

 

Pleezzz.......this is surreal mccoy.....remember....you graciously phoned me when we were both at NAMM to see about making a connection....(I apologize that we didn't connect)....

 

When you address me as the "OP" along with talking about "taking "baby steps" that some how doesn't quite feel right or appropriate....as I've been making my living as a professional pianist/ keyboardist for many more years than I'd care to admit.....

 

I was playing synths before true polyphony entered the picture...;~)

 

I merely originally implied that I was away from the "digital game" for several years, because in fact...I removed myself from it...only concentrating on piano (mind you....not to find a whole lot different when I returned).....in fact, when I was last an active participant, I met Steve Fortner down at NAMM several years back (we both have wonderful shaved heads...)

 

The last keyboard/ synth I bought and currently own is a Yamaha S90. In addition to my 12 years of solo Jazz piano employment on a Yamaha Grand piano, I've been playing a Roland RD700 along with a 61 note Oxygen MIDI controller w/ B4 at the church gig I do.

 

A better question might be to ask just how familiar you might actually be with the Muse Receptor, as I get the feeling that you might equate it's duties on equal par with a rompler..?

 

hmmm...."baby steps"....interesting concept....

[eric]

Hey Alan -- no offense intended! I know you've been gigging for a long time and of course I remember our conversation at NAMM. Perhaps "baby steps" is a misplaced analogy here. What I meant was this. I understand you are trying to freshen up your gear, having used the same kit for many years. You've been putting all the top rompler/workstation players through their paces and have narrowed it down quite a bit. You're close to making the final decision. You also think the Receptor is cool. All of this is great stuff, seriously! What I am suggesting that you do is get the rompler you like and see how that works out, then snag the Receptor to fill in the gaps...or do it the other way around. Snag the Receptor and see how much it improves your current rig, then decide if you need the new rompler or not. That's all I'm sayin'.

 

As for which of the romplers will work best with the Receptor from a MIDI controller standpoint, the Kurz can school the Yamaha in terms of flexibility and sophisticated MIDI tricks. You would be more familiar with the Yamaha UI since you've had the S90 for so long.

 

As for the Receptor, that is a great piece of gear that can cover so many bases (soft synths, virtual Rhodes, B3, pianos, etc.). I think you might get enough sound horsepower from a Receptor that you won't care as much what your controller board has under the hood (hence my thought about you keeping the S90).

 

Have fun with it, no matter what decision you make! You have some great gear on your wish list!

 

Regards,

Eric

[ErikH]

Both the Yamaha and the PC3x have excellent sound sets, and the fact that you'll have a receptor pretty much means that you can easily use the Receptor to cover any particular sound that isn't on the rompler.

 

In the end, your decision should probably be made based on controller functionality and keybed.

 

The pc3x is a crazy good controller (2 cc pedals, 3 sustain pedals, 2 wheels, 9 sliders, breath, ribbon, and tons of buttons, all individually assignable to do pretty much everything.) The Yamaha may be just as good or even better; I don't know for sure.

 

But to use the organs as an example, you could easily set up the pc3 sliders to be drawbars for the receptor. Etc.

 

The really crucial difference between the pc3 and the yamaha is that the yamaha will sample. So if you ever want to travel WITHOUT the receptor, and if you want a sound that isn't no the pc3x, you can sample it int to the yamaha.

[surreal mccoy]

What I am suggesting that you do is get the rompler you like and see how that works out, then snag the Receptor to fill in the gaps...or do it the other way around. Snag the Receptor and see how much it improves your current rig, then decide if you need the new rompler or not. That's all I'm sayin'.

As for the Receptor, that is a great piece of gear that can cover so many bases (soft synths, virtual Rhodes, B3, pianos, etc.). I think you might get enough sound horsepower from a Receptor that you won't care as much what your controller board has under the hood (hence my thought about you keeping the S90).

 

Thanks Eric.....sorry if I sounded offended. when I heard "baby steps"....I thought of the example I use with my students.....;~)

I should mention that for this particular gig, I don't use my S90 (the S90 stays in my studio except for occasional gigs where I don't have access to an acoustic piano). For the church gig, I've been using a Roland RD700 (not SX or GX) along with a 61 note M-Audio Oxygen controller w/ B4 via a laptop. If I were to just add a Muse Receptor to the mix, I'd still be dealing with the rather dated and weaker voices of the RD700. If I just replace the rompler with a higher powered board, I still want to be able to have access to software quality acoustic pianos, orchestral strings, etc. that really aren't available on any rompler. So.....if in fact the Receptor would behave like a rompler in the sense of being able to instantly call up a multitude of different instrument voices on the fly.....I might just forget the idea of a dedicated rompler. But since that's not quite the case....I feel this is the best route for me to take. I guess this makes sense to me and i don't view this as over kill.

 

So now back to my original question.......between the PC3 & XS boards, which cuts thru better onstage...?

 

Alan

[surreal mccoy]

In the end, your decision should probably be made based on controller functionality and keybed.

But to use the organs as an example, you could easily set up the pc3 sliders to be drawbars for the receptor. Etc.

The really crucial difference between the pc3 and the yamaha is that the yamaha will sample. So if you ever want to travel WITHOUT the receptor, and if you want a sound that isn't no the pc3x, you can sample it int to the yamaha.

 

Thanks Erik,

 

Your comment about controller abilities and keybed make a lot of sense. I should've mentioned that I'm keeping a 61 note non-weighted M-Audio Oxygen controller w/ 9 sliders (quasi B4 control) for my organ duties.

And since this rig will stay at the church, the sampling option from the Yamaha won't be needed.

 

Alan

[denkom67]

Another factor to consider is the weight and form factor of the XS8. I was originally on the fence with respect to the XS8 vs. the XS7, but decided to go with the XS7 as the XS8 weighs over 60 pounds and is decidedly bulky. I recently got a PC3X as I decided I really missed having a more weighted action for playing piano sounds. It's not a significantly lighter board than the XS8 (I believe it's about 55 pounds), but it has a surprisingly slim form factor for an 88 key controller - it's only a smidge longer than my XS7, and I believe the depth is actually shallower. And as previously noted by others, if controller capabilities are important, the Kurzweil smokes the Yamaha in flexibility and capabilities.

[ProfD]

Skip the 88-note ROMPler altogether. Too many features that would go unused.

 

Pick up the Muse Receptor and a Motif rack. That would upgrade the soundset and provide the necessary redundancy.

 

Use the S90 (studio), RD700 and M-Audio (church) as MIDI controllers.

 

If the MIDI capabilities aren't sufficient to run the Receptor and Motif rack, pick up a dedicated 88-note MIDI controller.

[surreal mccoy]

Another factor to consider is the weight and form factor of the XS8. I was originally on the fence with respect to the XS8 vs. the XS7, but decided to go with the XS7 as the XS8 weighs over 60 pounds and is decidedly bulky. I recently got a PC3X as I decided I really missed having a more weighted action for playing piano sounds. It's not a significantly lighter board than the XS8 (I believe it's about 55 pounds), but it has a surprisingly slim form factor for an 88 key controller - it's only a smidge longer than my XS7, and I believe the depth is actually shallower. And as previously noted by others, if controller capabilities are important, the Kurzweil smokes the Yamaha in flexibility and capabilities.

 

My biggest question to you: did you compare the XS/PC3x as far as overall abilities to cut thru in a live, onstage mix?

[surreal mccoy]

Skip the 88-note ROMPler altogether. Too many features that would go unused.

 

Pick up the Muse Receptor and a Motif rack. That would upgrade the soundset and provide the necessary redundancy.

 

Use the S90 (studio), RD700 and M-Audio (church) as MIDI controllers.

 

If the MIDI capabilities aren't sufficient to run the Receptor and Motif rack, pick up a dedicated 88-note MIDI controller.

 

Actually, the church wants to pass the RD700 down to the youth group. We'd still keep the 61 non-weighted Oxygen to control B4, synths, etc. But I'm thinking a dedicated rompler/ 88 key controller would work best. I'd thought about going with the Motif XS rack + 88 key MIDI controller. I think I'd prefer dealing with the PC3x or XS8 in a live performance situation.

 

Alan

[burningbusch]

For the price of what you're talking about you could probably land a recession-discounted OASYS 88. Much more fun in my book. Just a thought.

 

Busch.

[zxcvbnm098]

Interestingly enough, I just reread the KBM review of the Kurz before I sat down at the computer. Although I have not A/B'd the 2, it might be interesting to have Dave or Stephen weigh in. The gist of the review is that the Kurz sounds amazing in a band context and really cuts through.

[surreal mccoy]

Interestingly enough, I just reread the KBM review of the Kurz before I sat down at the computer. Although I have not A/B'd the 2, it might be interesting to have Dave or Stephen weigh in. The gist of the review is that the Kurz sounds amazing in a band context and really cuts through.

 

I would like to hope so. I used to own a PC2r and while it sounded somewhat amazing via headphones, there was a major loss of translation via onstage performance. I eventually purchased my Yamaha S90 to cover the weak points of the Kurz...

[Bobadohshe]

I would probably get the Kurzweil and the receptor, or the Kurzweil and an XS6. I really don't think you need an XS8. That would be eXcSess (snigger).

 

Honestly I own an XS6, and there are many great sounds on it but Aidan is not far from the mark when he says that many of them need a little work before they can be used live. If you always tweak your sounds anyway though, maybe that's a good thing. The pianos on the XS are phenomenal. I've heard great things about the Kurz pianos too though, so who knows. As a controller the Kurz is probably much better than the XS. Unfortunately, despite all those beautiful knobs and faders, it's a massive pain to assign them to midi cc commands and you need to know the board extremely well to do it. Seems like it's a snap with the Kurz by comparison.

 

Also the XS6 would give you a much better organ experience than an 88 note keyboard. The organs are pretty awesome on the XS6, but if I had a receptor I would probably be using those organs instead.

[Analogaddict]

Interesting topic - I use a PC3x with a Receptor and an ES rack. I use the Receptor mostly for VB3, OP-X Pro and Kontakt for any special samples/sounds. I get my pianos, ep:s, strings, orchestral and woodwinds from the PC3, while the ESr usually supplies synth sounds and brass. With one project where I rely heavily on Wurlitzer, I use the Scarbee samples in K2 on the Receptor. The ESr is great for synth sounds, and while the PC3 surely has the same potential (if not more!), there are so many good preset sounds in the ESr that make the programming process easier. I tried the XS when it came out, and although I percieved it as slightly better sounding than the ESr, having my Receptor and the soft synths made the XSr a bit redundant for me.

 

As for pianos - well, I have Ivory on the Receptor too, but I don't use it as my main piano anymore. I use the PC3 pianos and instead I get more sample and processing mileage from the Receptor.

 

I always carry my own gear, and the smaller format of the PC3 was really important for me. I had a Nord Stage 88 before the Kurz, and I can't see myself returning to the 'big 3' format (big, bulky, impractical) anytime soon.

[Moonglow]

I have to say that showing up to a gig with just a PC3X and a Receptor is a very sleek, sexy idea! One of these days.......

 

Regarding surreal mccoy's question as to which board cuts through the mix, it seems that I see an XS8 just about every time there is a live concert on television. I doubt this keyboard would be elevated to such "industry standard" level if it did not cut through the mix.

 

That being said, I'm more of a Kurzweil guy, having regularly gigged with a K2600X. I will jump on the pile here regarding Kurzweil's uber-comprehensive yet user-friendly MIDI controller functions. Just about worth the price of admission, in and of itself, IMHO. I've also experienced hardly any problems with it cutting through the mix.

[surreal mccoy]

Thanks again to all the great replies...

 

I'm still on the fence between these two boards...?

 

The XS8 seems to have too many bells/whistles (sampler/ sequencer I won't use) along with it's extreme weight......yet I really appreciate many of the Yammie's voices.

 

While the PC3x seems to entice me more with it's overall controller capabilities, some of it's voices leave me less than thrilled....

 

Decisions, decisions.....

[TJ Cornish]

My wife and I went shopping for a glider rocker the other day, as we're expecting our first kid in a couple of months. We would sit on one, like it, and then sit on a different model, and hate it. That is, until we sat there for a minute or two. Then, suddenly it didn't feel so bad. When going back to the first chair, the same process happened in reverse - I now had to adjust back to the first chair.

 

 

I've had this same process with almost every keyboard I've ever bought. I listen to old recordings of gigs, and cringe at my piano tone, even though I loved it at the time.

 

In 2005, I went from a PC2-based rig for pianos to a new shiny Oasys. It completely blew my whole rig away as far as power was concerned, but the pianos were a little thin. Soon, I got used to it, and when I went back to my PC2, they sounded dull.

 

I've just repeated this process with my PC3X that I got a year ago. I've started playing the PC3X a little more often for my more-piano based gigs, and I'm used to that sound and feel. Going to the Oasys is taking an adjustment again.

 

I would give the PC3 some more time if I were you. Once upon a time I liked Yamaha, but I'm not a huge fan of their synth structure, though it's certainly a fine instrument that a lot of people have success with.

 

 

[surreal mccoy]

Well....FWIW.....I ordered a PC3x yesterday. Should arrive in a couple of days. Hope I made a good choice....?

 

 

Alan

[TJ Cornish]

Time will tell! Make sure you check out the unofficial official Kurzweil site:

 

http://community.sonikmatter.com/forums/index.php?showforum=83