Why aren't these guys BIG???

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Doug. His name is Doug Pinnick.

 

Oh, all right then.

[MILLO]

But most of the time it's all about MINIMIZING risks. I think, seeing how the industry works, that it is RISKIER to back up someone like Pinnick than to back up Britney Spears, Ashlee Simpson, or Jay-Z. ...or Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg or Brad Paisley or Coldplay or Mute Math or Radiohead or Metallica or Maxim Vengerov or etc, etc, etc...

Totally agree. If somebody that looked like the guys in Radiohead came out and made music that sounded like Britney Spears, it would either be a novelty or quickly dismissed for reasons that have nothing to do with the music. And IMO the exceptions prove the rule in this case.

That's what I think, honestly. I really didn't mean to offend or sound sour or anything.

[Fumblyfingers]

But most of the time it's all about MINIMIZING risks.

 

Yeah.....I know all this, I have been around this industry too long to not know all this stuff....longer than a lot of you guys I am loathe to say

 

Then too, you almost cannot compare Spears and Co to any of this because that is Pop ....but I totally get what you are saying. They are going to back those groups and artists anyway...whoever is bringing it home.

 

I agree with you, I don't know why Kings X did not make it, but I still stand by what I said.... ....it must have to do with people not liking something about the music, his voice, the lyric content, the timing, the live shows, how they have been marketed.........I still prefer to believe it has nothing to do with his color or which gender he prefers as a partner.

 

I am going to get off this now.....it's going to start to look like we are fighting and I know we are not......

[Gifthorse]

Dug Pinnick didn't even announce he was gay until like 4 years ago or something so I doubt that is the reason they didn't have success. He really doesn't act 'gay', and I never would have thought that from listening to Gretchen Goes To Nebraska (I agree this album is a complete masterpiece)

 

Gretchen Goes to Nebraska literally changed my whole direction. It made me excited to play rock again. At that stage, it was the end of the glam rock era. Anyone who disses King's X who hasn't heard this CD is kind of like someone who thinks Led Zeppelin sux but has never heard Physical Graffiti, or someone who thinks Van Halen sux but has only heard that song Dreams off 5150.

 

I garantee some of you doubters would be swayed if you heard that CD. It has it all. Great vocals (pinnick is one of the greats of all time for rock singers in my book), great guitar playing, harmonies and songwriting. The stuff MDRS posted (no offense) is by no means a sum up of thier diverse sound.

 

I do think that they didn't make it big because of timing. That guy retiring from Atlantic right when they were getting thier push. And also the 'lack of push' that it really turned out to be. How often were they on the radio? Not often. That determines success cuz if people don't know who you are they won't buy your CDs.

[mdrs]

If I can, I always try to judge what a band is made of, by seeing them in the flesh.

 

These guys are the read deal. Period. Just go see them. You'll know. And, the message won't take long to get thru.

 

Many good points have been made on this thread. There are many factors that go into "making it". Who knows, maybe the phase of the moon wasn't right? I sure don't know what makes one band make it, and another fail.

 

 

 

[MILLO]

Gretchen Goes to Nebraska literally changed my whole direction. It made me excited to play rock again. At that stage, it was the end of the glam rock era.

I'll give it a listen.

 

Don: I'll also check when they're in town--I never go to concerts anymore, LOL! But I'll check these guys b/c from the live vids I've seen they seem to be great performers.I seem to remember they're from the Houston area... Katy, right? Never even been to Houston but got a few friends from over there.

[Fumblyfingers]

Today I was ordered to tidy the garage so the boss could get to her Christmas ornaments. I don't really care about all that as long as I have a clear path to the studio. But being as I want a nice present for Christmas to make up for all the shite I have taken over the last year, I complied.

 

Anyway, given all the hullabaloo about Kings X lately, I put on Gretchen and cranked it...solid album!

 

I also get the idea some people are talking without really having listened to this band. Not the crap on the YouTube or on the radio or MTV here and there. Gretchen is a fine album.

[Soulrock]

Wow, I'm really late on this thread. I had Gretchen Goes To Nebraska on cassette back when I was in high school. It's one of those that I keep meaning to buy on cd. I probably haven't heard it in 15 years or more, but it was a cool album, at least as I remember it. I haven't really heard any of their later work, except a single or two that got airplay. I should probably check some of it out.

While the band may have never really broke through, they have managed to stay together for 20 years, record a body of work and have a loyal following to whom their music is important(judging by the responses here). Seems better to me than making one or two albums that sell a ton, but then are forgotten because the people that bought them are more into pop culture, fads and whatever is hip at the time than music. My two cents.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

I also get the idea some people are talking without really having listened to this band. Not the crap on the YouTube or on the radio or MTV here and there. Gretchen is a fine album.

 

Yeah, but talk about moving the goalposts! Ok, I'd never heard the band before we were asked by the good Dr. to comment on why we thought King's X never made it big, based on a bunch of YouTube vids.

 

And now it turns out that the vids aren't where the band is at its finest and blah, blah, blah. Personally, I don't feel like spending $ on an album by a band whose YouTube clips did nothing for me, in order to discuss why they didn't make it bigger.

 

If you can indicate some videos (or whatever) online that shows King's X at their best for free, I'd be happy to listen to them, but otherwise, if you're going to bring in stuff outside the original terms of reference, the whole discussion seems rather pointless, doesn't it?

[Hardtail]

I also get the idea some people are talking without really having listened to this band. Not the crap on the YouTube or on the radio or MTV here and there. Gretchen is a fine album.

 

Yeah, but talk about moving the goalposts! Ok, I'd never heard the band before we were asked by the good Dr. to comment on why we thought King's X never made it big, based on a bunch of YouTube vids.

 

And now it turns out that the vids aren't where the band is at its finest and blah, blah, blah. Personally, I don't feel like spending $ on an album by a band whose YouTube clips did nothing for me, in order to discuss why they didn't make it bigger.

 

If you can indicate some videos (or whatever) online that shows King's X at their best for free, I'd be happy to listen to them, but otherwise, if you're going to bring in stuff outside the original terms of reference, the whole discussion seems rather pointless, doesn't it?

 

Good "point".

[MILLO]

Well, I have listened to one or two of the 90's albums... in the 90's. Overall I thought they were good but 'blah', didn't move me or grab me or excited me or anything. Nothing bad, but just didn't do it for me.

 

I listened to some of 'Gretchen' on iTunes last night, and heard some nice riffs and nice turns/chord changes/harmonies. Cool, still not grabbing my attention, but one can't judge from 30-second snippets. Most likely someone I know someone that has it and can lend it to me.

 

Anyway thanks for the recommendations.

[Trucks]

My mum says, "if you don't eat your greens, you won't ever grow up big and strong"

 

So in answer to the orginal question, they obviously did not eat their greens.

 

Mum's are always right, so who's to argue?!

[mdrs]

My mum says, "if you don't eat your greens, you won't ever grow up big and strong"

 

So in answer to the orginal question, they obviously did not eat their greens.

 

Mum's are always right, so who's to argue?!

 

You might be on to something there, Trucks.......

[The Bear Jew]

Back a few years, I worked in very small office with two other people. One of the guys was a real muso and a huge King's X fan, and he took every chance he could to play the band's music on the office CD player/boom box.

 

While I certainly recognized the musical appeal of the band, the songs never particularly grew on me for whatever reason. The music had that feel... like the band was really smart and knew exactly what it was doing, but the tunes never wound up grabbing me aside from making me appreciate that these guys had talent.

 

They didn't have songs that made me forget I was a musician and just get lost in the feeling the music created, if that makes any sense. The band always struck me as soulful but somewhat lacking in substance and the sorta unclassifiable element I always call the "x factor" that usually takes a band to chart success.

 

We could sit here and look at technical or societal reasons for this band's moderate success (gay, black, christian singer, lack of promotion, etc, etc), but ultimately, I think what kept this band from truly being really big was simply that lack of the "x factor." I mean, I can get into almost any music and appreciate why it appeals (or doesn't appeal) to folks, and these guys just never seemed to have that "thing" that takes the band over the top to big sales and such.

 

I liken them to the whole Vai/Satriani thing--great players, lots of talent, big appeal amongst a certain group of musicians and music fans, but little-to-no chance of crossing over to folks in the general population.

 

And is that really a terrible thing? Sure, the King's X lads aren't rich, but the band has a solid career in music, a great deal of respect from its peers and a dedicated fan base without really worrying about the charts because I'm pretty sure these guys are aware that it's just not really in the cards for them.

[Fumblyfingers]

if you're going to bring in stuff outside the original terms of reference, the whole discussion seems rather pointless, doesn't it?

 

Nobody tried to get you to opine based only on the video's. The original question was "We've discussed it before. Don't you think that these guys should be flying higher? Kings X".....the video's were provided as a reference. You chose to critique based solely on the video's...without knowing anything about them or ever having heard a deep cut.

 

I don't have the inclination to go looking for some free stuff of theirs that might impress you more, and as Millo said, you cannot judge a band based on an iTune clip. Besides, if you are not liking them at this point you probably never will......no biggie, we can't all like the same bands all the time.

 

[Mudcat]

...While I certainly recognized the musical appeal of the band, the songs never particularly grew on me for whatever reason. The music had that feel... like the band was really smart and knew exactly what it was doing, but the tunes never wound up grabbing me aside from making me appreciate that these guys had talent...

 

My exact thoughts.

[Gifthorse]

Check out these songs if you so feel inclined.

 

Don't Believe it

Out of the Silent planet

The Difference (these 3 are off Gretchen Goes to Nebraska)

 

The World Around Me, The Ooh song (Off King's X)

 

Manic Moonlight (off Manic Moonlight)

Happy (tapehead)

Faraway (out of the silent planet--album not the song)

Flies and Blueskies (dogman)

Black the Sky (dogman)--I know the ending sux

Fool you (dogman)

 

 

None of the live clips I have seen on Utube do these guys justice. They are incredible live but for some reason either the sound quality or the performance is bland in these clips. I have to say also I was bored with thier set list at the last show--besides Ogretones. Why? They just played the songs everyone knew. Most bands do this and it is boring for true fans.

 

 

 

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Besides, if you are not liking them at this point you probably never will......no biggie, we can't all like the same bands all the time.

 

Yeah, fair enough.

[duff beer]

I have to say also I was bored with thier set list at the last show--besides Ogretones. Why? They just played the songs everyone knew. Most bands do this and it is boring for true fans.

 

 

Except for a small percentage (the "true fans" that you mention), most fans buy concert tickets to hear the songs that they know (which normally include most of the hits). The large percentage of people who want to hear the hits have just as much right as the "true fans" to hear those songs. They didn't spend $100 on a ticket to hear songs they haven't heard before. I have a friend who is a huge fan of the Black Crowes...he has all their CD's and knows all their songs. He went to a concert a couple years ago and was extremely pissed that over half of the set list was songs he had never heard before, and most of the songs that he did know were not the hits or well-known songs.

 

Bands become popular for the most part because of certain songs...and I find it arrogant that a band would ignore what made them famous and what sold out the arena just so that they can indulge themselves playing songs that no one has heard before.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I have to say also I was bored with thier set list at the last show--besides Ogretones. Why? They just played the songs everyone knew. Most bands do this and it is boring for true fans.

 

 

Except for a small percentage (the "true fans" that you mention), most fans buy concert tickets to hear the songs that they know (which normally include most of the hits). The large percentage of people who want to hear the hits have just as much right as the "true fans" to hear those songs. They didn't spend $100 on a ticket to hear songs they haven't heard before. I have a friend who is a huge fan of the Black Crowes...he has all their CD's and knows all their songs. He went to a concert a couple years ago and was extremely pissed that over half of the set list was songs he had never heard before, and most of the songs that he did know were not the hits or well-known songs.

 

Bands become popular for the most part because of certain songs...and I find it arrogant that a band would ignore what made them famous and what sold out the arena just so that they can indulge themselves playing songs that no one has heard before.

 

+1

[mdrs]

Regardless your your opinions stated here, or elsewhere, if you have a chance to see Kings X live, DO NOT MISS IT.

 

You may not find that they suddenly become your favorite band. They certainly aren't close to my favorite. But, I'd see them anytime I possibly could. And, they totally earned my respect with their very first song. They ARE the real deal, even if they are not YOUR real deal!!

[skipclone 1]

Well, the premise of this thread is kinda loaded to begin with-`these guys are so good, why aren`t they bigger`-I don`t know what someone who doesn`t get their appeal can bring to the discussion.

Or someone who thinks they are already the best band in the world, as a wide variety of famous players have said.

As an aside I think you could add Bad Brains or Fishbone and have the same topic.

looking at it objectively-which is the best way to move the discussion forward-you could just as easily say, how come so-and so DID make it so big, when they don`t seem to have that much ability, big corporate backing, good looks, whatever.

[Gifthorse]

I know what you mean Lee, with most bands that have made it (with the exception of VH who could easily get away with playing any old stuff they wanted), but with King's X, thier fans have already heard everything and love thier music. I mean they don't advertise King's X shows on the radio.

 

If any band could get away with it, it would be them. I mean songs like 'World around me' would be way bigger hits than some of thier other songs, but that wasn't even on the radio. Actually most of their cool stuff isn't on the radio, thats my point. The people who are at the concert are there because they know them. They have a very loyal fanbase. Alot of musicians.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Bands become popular for the most part because of certain songs...and I find it arrogant that a band would ignore what made them famous and what sold out the arena just so that they can indulge themselves playing songs that no one has heard before.

 

Well, I assume you (or your friend) objected to the percentage of new songs compared to old. Interesting point.

 

On the other hand, as you'd know, lots of bands write songs, perfect and develop them by playing them live and THEN go record them. It's also a good way of seeing how the public reacts to potential song releases. But yeah, I can see why it'd be important to keep an eye on the old vs. new mix.

 

As an aside I think you could add Bad Brains or Fishbone and have the same topic.

 

I think everybody has some favourite band that should have been bigger than The Beatles, but never quite got there. It's one of those conversation topics that always comes up, isn't it?

[Hardtail]

I think everybody has some favourite band that should have been bigger than The Beatles, but never quite got there. It's one of those conversation topics that always comes up, isn't it?

 

My favorite band, Led Zeppelin, didn't get quite as big as the Beatles but the came damned close.

 

[p90jr]

With King's X, I think "marketing" a retro-ish, genre-hopping and genre-blending band to the mass audience was just a difficult task. Also, the band didn't have ant "immediate" songs, songs that were instantly rewarding to people who casually hear music in the background someplace, and those are the people who take a band from "decent" sales to huge ones. They are a successful band on a cult level and for a bit a little beyond that... they were a major label act with all the surrounding attention.

 

Racism? Not in the industry, it seems there's always some act that everyone is championing. In the audience? I don't think it's actually racism, but maybe a weird expectation thing... There's a lot of african-american indie rock musicians at the moment, and everytime someone comments that that's a weird thing to see I remind them that Ike Turner and Chuck Berry were black and pretty much started the whole ball rolling. Living Color? Fishbone? Should they have made a bigger or more enduring impact? Hell, if the American public was that easy to figure out we'd all be President or a millionaire, wouldn't we?

 

I did see a band opening for Bloc Party called the Noisettes, who struck me as the spiritual punky younger English siblings of King's X. The guitarist could bust out some impressive playing when it was time for it, but he has that bluesy/punk economy most of the time. Soulful band, they're expected to be huge, we'll see...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dALeLKEHDz4

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C91iV8gQb1U

 

[Fumblyfingers]

Welcome to the forum p90jr.

 

[skipclone 1]

Yeah welcome, and a very cool first posting too.

[Werewolf by Night]

Well, I'd be ecstatic to be as successful as King's X; that'd be fine with me!

 

I know what you mean, though; there are loads of groups and individuals out there that really have a lot of talent and skill ( ) that never quite get into the higher levels of success and public recognition.

 

Allan Holdsworth, anyone? Tuck Andress? Zebra? The Pogues? Kevin Welch?

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Allan Holdsworth, anyone? Tuck Andress? Zebra? The Pogues? Kevin Welch?

 

I don't think you can quite compare The Pogues to King's X.

 

The Pogues' "Fairy Tale Of New York" was #2 on the British charts, and AFAIK, is still a firm listener favourite on Brit. radio.