MSM for pain?

[Jazz+]

I performed 5 hours straight on Saturday and 3 hours on Sunday with 10 minute breaks each hour. Then late Sunday night I practiced for another 90 minutes. It was all jazz trio playing standards with easy tempos from 63 to 163. I played everything on my Roland FP4. I played lots of melodies with Red Garland style block chords (octaves with the 5th inside in the right hand) which tends to make me even more sore afterwards. I was sure my wrists would become extremely sore as usual due to a lifelong tenosinivitis condition (pretty much the same as tendonitis but it's the tendon sheath that gets inflamed from friction). However I find almost no soreness or stiffness today. What I did differently was to take 2,000 milligrams of Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) before each gig per my doctor's suggestion, plus 2 Advil tablets during the Sunday gig. I don't know what to believe, whether MSM worked or it was some other factors.

 

Wikipedia on MSM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane

[kanker.]

MSM helped my tendonitis as far as I can tell. The MSM/Glucosamine/Chondroitin combo really has done a number on my joint and tendon issues. At this point, I consider my tendonitis healed. I still am very careful with what I do with my hands and how I do it, and I also attribute a lot of my recovery to therapeutic massage and my CA-X (wood keys man, wood keys), but I think what finally put the nail in the coffin was the MSM.

[zahush76]

hi. my name is zahush, and i'm a junky. (support group: "we love you zahush")

[Jazz+]

I tried the combination of just Glucosamine and Chondroitin for several months but didn't notice much improvement and stopped. They tended to upset my digestion. Recently I started taking MSM alone and seems to have made a substantial difference. I wonder if there are negative side effects. I will probably start taking Glucosamine and Chondroitin in combination with MSM again.

 

I also take 2 grams of fish oil, 1000 E, B complex, 1000 D, and multi vitamins and minerals.

[Dave Ferris]

I haven't had that much luck with the stuff.

I've taken it off and on. The first time I used it for about 6 months then stopped after I saw no results. I then spoke with a sports doc and he said you really need to give it at least 9 months...so I tried it for almost a year and still didn't notice any less soreness/stiffness in my running.

 

Luckily, I haven't any major cramping/soreness/stiffness from piano playing.

That is a lot of playing in a couple of days +. 5 Hrs. straight?

Man, I hope you made some good bread on that one. That conjures up bad memories from 20 yrs. ago when I used to do a lot of weddings..ceremony-cocktails-4 hr.band hit w/ almost no breaks...good $$ but LONG night!

 

I have had great results for my arthritic big toes (both feet...the same problem Shaq O'Neal had...he had the surgery. My condition is quite painful after a long run!) with this creme called:

 

"IB Relief"...the stuff REALLY WORKS...take it from a beat up 54 yr. old runner. It's not cheap...$20 for a little 2oz. tube. It is an "homeopathic ibuprofen creme for muscles and joints" to quote the label. "Reduces inflammation, increases mobility, reduces swelling, non-greasy and odorless".

 

Other stuff I've had good results w/ are:

All Terrain Recovery Rub 3oz. $9

Biofreeze Pain relieving gel 4oz. (not sure of price)

Miracle Rub

 

There are tons of these pain relieving cremes now for aging boomers that are into sports.

I'd try one of these and see if it helps.

Of course if the MSM/combo is working for you...great.

It didn't help me however.

[SK]

Jazz+ and kanker, that's pretty cool that you found something that works.

 

Now get the precise combination of medications/nutrients down, and patent it and package it for keyboardists.

("Dr. Jazz+ Formula")

 

Good to know about the MSM. I haven't had any serious reoccurrence of keyboard related tendonitis for a while, as long as I work it out on a real piano action.

 

Dave - another thing you can check out is Capsazin ointment at the drugstore. Made from red peppers (don't get it in your eyes) it stimulates blood flow and healing. AFTER it was first marketed as a muscle pain reliever, they discovered it can actually cure certain forms of arthritis. But it was already on the market as a lower priced pain reliever, so it's a more affordable treatment for arthritis.

 

A weird thing about Capsazin is when you put it on, you may not feel anything. But if there's any inflammation to the area, it will start to burn (like a sunburn pain) even a day later if there's re-inflammation. So you only feel it when it's working.

 

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I'm going to have to try this. I've had this pain between my fingers for many months now (5-6 months I think) and it doesn't appear to be healing. I've been using icepacks which I just don't have the patience to maintain it daily. I also take Motrin. It doesn't hurt when I play (thank goodness), but it is tender.

 

I don't know what the pain is from. I'm guessing in my case that it is a sprain (torn or strained ligament), instead of an actual tendon. But I can't be sure.

 

I play three hours a day so my fingers don't get any rest.

 

 

 

 

[delirium]

for me that works:

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EVR0HGVPL._AA240_.jpg

[Steve Nathan]

I recently learned that the pain I had in my right foot and ankle was caused by arthritis which the doctors said developed from 53 years of pushing on a piano sustain pedal

I started high dose Gluc/Chond/MSM and wear good orthotics in my shoes and the pain is pretty much gone

The orthopedic surgeon said that G/C/MSM works for about 40-50% of the people who try it and they don't know why it works for some and not others. It's worth a shot.

 

 

[Jazz+]

I was taking 1,000 mg of MSM for few months without much effect. When I took 2,000 mg before each gig this weekend I really noticed a substantial benefit. One of my students is an aerobics instructor and she just told me today that 3000 mg is an ideal dose. She says she has taken 3,000 mg twice a day for many years.

[BluesKeys]

What I did differently was to take 2,000 milligrams of Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) before each gig, plus 2 Advil tablets during the Sunday gig. I don't know what to believe, whether MSM worked or it was some other factors.

 

Wikipedia on MSM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane

 

Timely thread my friends. I just went to my Chiropractor this past week to work on my forearm. He said I had more muscle on the underside than the top side. So I am doing exercises to strengthen my arm. How ever the pain is still there and tightens me up when I play certain songs.

 

Where do I find MSM? Is it prescription? What kind of cost?

[kanker.]

Where do I find MSM? Is it prescription? What kind of cost?

Go to the drug store or Wal-Mart or similar that has supplements. It's pretty cheap.

[Dave Horne]

From wiki ...

 

The published clinical trials of MSM did not observe any serious side-effects of treatment, but there are no peer-reviewed data on the effects of long-term use in humans.

 

You guys are self medicating using over the counter suppliments?

 

and from QuackWatch.org

 

Published Research is Minuscule

Medline searches for "methylsulfonylmethane, "MSM," and "dimethylsulfone" found few reports on MSM published in mainstream scientific journals between 1966 and 2000 and none in which MSM was tested for effectiveness against any human ailment. Two studies in rats found that MSM delayed the onset of chemically induced cancers [9,10]. However, since no further studies have been reported in more than 10 years, this appears not to have been a fruitful line of research. Another study found no effect on the onset of diabetes in rats [11].

 

The claim that MSM is an important source of dietary sulfur is unsupported by published research. One study that involved feeding MSM to guinea pigs found that the sulfur from MSM was absorbed rapidly into the blood stream and was incorporated into methionine and cysteine of serum proteins. However, most of the sulfur appeared in the urine; less than 1% was incorporated into serum proteins. Increasing the dosage of MSM 100-fold increased the incorporation into serum proteins only 3-fold, indicating that the capacity to use MSM in this pathway is limited [12]. Thus, while MSM is naturally present in small amounts in a variety of foods, its contribution to sulfur metabolism in humans is likely to be negligible.

 

Regulatory Action

Karl Loren (whose birth name was Loren Karl Troescher) operates what he calls "The Largest Web Presence For MSM On The Planet," a site that markets MSM products with many health claims and testimonials for them. In October 2000, the FDA warned him that the long list of therapeutic claims he was making for these products made them drugs would be illegal to market without FDA approval. The letter stated that the FDA had seen no evidence that the products were safe and effective for their intended uses [13].

 

The Bottom Line

No published research studies link MSM to any of the health claims made by its marketers. Sulfur needed in human metabolism comes from dietary protein. MSM supplements probably make little or no contribution to the body's sulfur requirements. Thus there is no good reason to use MSM supplements.

 

 

[Jazz+]

I know there is a lack of clinical research. But in my case it seems to be of substantial benefit for my tenosinivitis condition.

[jimmymio]

Where do I find MSM? Is it prescription? What kind of cost?

 

Costco sells a very reasonably priced glucosamine/msm combo under their own Kirkland label.

JP

[Jazz+]

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane#Evidence_from_clinical_trials

 

Effects on health

 

The effects of supplemental methylsulfonylmethane in biology and medicine are poorly understood. Several researchers have suggested that MSM has anti-inflammatory effects (Morton et al. 1986; Childs, 1994; Murav'ev et al., 1991). Any health effects of dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) may be mediated, at least in part, by MSM (Williams et al, 1966; Kocsis et al, 1975). Stanley W. Jacob, M.D., of the Oregon Health and Science University, claims to have used MSM to treat over 18,000 patients with a variety of ailments (Jacob & Appleton, 2003).

 

There is also criticism about the efficacy of MSM. MSM is promoted as a natural source of sulfur by the supplement and health food industry, suggesting that people are deficient in sulfur intake. However, protein in the diet is an abundant source of sulfur, which is contained in the amino acids methionine and cysteine.

 

Clinical evidence for the usefulness of MSM is limited to animal studies and four published clinical studies in humans. These pilot studies of MSM have suggested some benefits, particularly for treatment of osteoarthritis. Further studies would be needed to test the usefulness of the chemical as a medical therapy.

 

[edit] Evidence from clinical trials

 

* Osteoarthritis: After several reports that MSM helped arthritis in animal models, a double-blind, placebo-controlled study suggested that 1500 mg per day MSM (alone or in combination with glucosamine sulfate) was helpful in relieving symptoms of knee osteoarthritis (Usha and Naidu 2004). Kim et al. then conducted a double-blind clinical trial of MSM for treatment of patients with osteoarthritis of the knee. Twenty-five patients took 6 g/day MSM and 25 patients took a placebo for 12 weeks. Ten patients did not complete the study, and intent-to-treat analysis was performed. Patients who took MSM had significantly reduced pain and improved physical functioning, without major adverse events (Kim et al). No evidence of a more general anti-inflammatory effect was found, as there were no significant changes in two measures of systemic inflammation: C-reactive protein level and erythrocyte sedimentation rate. The authors cautioned that this short pilot study did not address the long-term safety and usefulness of MSM, but suggested that physicians should consider its use for certain osteoarthritis patients, and that long-term studies should be conducted (Kim et al. 2006).

 

* Seasonal Allergic Rhinitis: Barrager et al. evaluated the efficacy of MSM for hayfever (Barrager et al, 2002). Twenty-five subjects consumed 2,600 mg of MSM per day for 30 days, and a significant improvement in symptoms was observed compared to those taking a placebo. However, the study was not blinded. Also, no significant changes were observed in two indicators of inflammation (C-reactive protein and immunoglobulin E levels). The authors suggest that MSM is safe for short-term use and recommend that a larger, double-blind study be performed to establish its usefulness in treating symptoms of seasonal allergic rhinitis.

 

* Interstitial cystitis: In 1978, the FDA approved dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) for instillation into the bladder as a treatment for interstitial cystitis. Since DMSO is metabolized to MSM by the body, it is possible that MSM is the active ingredient in DMSO treatments (Childs 1994).

 

* Snoring: Blum & Blum conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trial of an MSM-containing throat spray for snoring (Blum & Blum, 2004).

 

[edit] Pharmacology and toxicity

 

The LD50 (dose at which 50% of test subjects are killed) of MSM is greater than 17.5 grams per kilogram of body weight. In rats, no adverse events were observed after daily doses of 2 g MSM per kg of body weight. In a 90-day follow-up study rats received daily MSM doses of 1.5 g/kg, and no changes were observed in terms of symptoms, blood chemistry, or gross pathology (Horvath et al., 2002).

 

Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) studies have demonstrated that oral doses of MSM are absorbed into the blood and cross the blood-brain barrier (Rose et al., 2000; Lin et al., 2001). An NMR study has also found detectable levels of MSM normally present in the blood and cerebrospinal fluid, suggesting that it derives from dietary sources, intestinal bacterial metabolism, and the body's endogenous methanethiol metabolism (Engelke et al., 2005).

 

The published clinical trials of MSM did not observe any serious side-effects of treatment, but there are no peer-reviewed data on the effects of long-term use in humans.

[Dave Horne]

This still comes down to self medicating.

 

 

[kanker.]

This still comes down to self medicating.

 

I used to be REAL good at that...

[Dave Horne]

This is an interesting bunch. If someone asks how to play the piano or asks about hand position, whatever, we recommend studying with a professional ... and this is for something relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

 

When someone has a health issue - relatively important in the grand scheme of things, we take the self medicating approach and the dosage advise of a yoga instructor.

 

If I were to have chronic hand pain I would make an appointment (after first visiting my GP) with a hand specialist, but that's just me.

 

 

[BluesKeys]

Dave I did see a doctor... a Chiropractor. Someone who specializes in bone and muscle structure. He has set me on a path of exersise that seems to be helping. But I play several times a week and need more instant relief when I play. I currently am using Alleve and it helps some.

[Dave Horne]

BluesKeys, there are some of us who don't consider a chiropractor a real doctor, but I realize this borders on discussing religion.

 

I went to a chiropractor once and found the experience .... interesting. I was placed on a table and when he manipulated my back, the table made the sound of my back cracking. The sound did not come from me; why someone would design a table that would make that sound gave me pause. I also saw literature in his waiting room (endorsed by their professional association) regarding chiropractic and diabetes.

 

from Wiki ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic

 

Chiropractic was founded in 1895 by Daniel David Palmer, based on his assertion that 95% of all health problems could be prevented or treated using adjustments of the spine (spinal adjustments), and 5% by adjustments of other joints, to correct what he termed vertebral subluxations. He, and later his son B.J. Palmer, proposed that subluxations were misaligned vertebrae which caused nerve compression that interfered with the transmission of what he named Innate Intelligence. This interference interrupted the proper flow of Innate Intelligence from "above, down, inside, and out" (ADIO) to the organ to which it traveled. As a result, the human body would experience "dis-ease" or disharmony which would result in loss of health. Palmer related this concept as similar to applying pressure to a hose that supplies a garden; relieve the pressure and the garden flourishes.

 

 

 

 

[BluesKeys]

Dave, I can tell you there are differences between various Chiropractors. Some are about healing and others are about making money. I think you can find the same situation with Medical Doctors or any profession for that matter.

 

I have found one who is into the holistic approach and he doesn't require his patients to set up return visits in most cases. His approach has worked for me when I have had lower back pain that crippled me as well as sinus problems.

 

To each his own and what ever works for you go for it. I believe that many Docs over prescribe drugs and I for one look for other ways to take care of myself.

[Jazzwee]

Dave, just so you know, there's a pretty limited number of things you can do with hand/finger pain. In my case, my GP injected cortisone between my fingers. The pain has not disappeared (6 months ago).

 

Torn ligaments, tendon sheath issues, and tendonitis in general will just be treated with anti-inflammatories. All with effects on your stomach lining.

 

Given the lack of choices, you can't really blame people for looking for alternatives.

 

Obviously surgery would be overkill for activity induced pain and even surgery might cause more problems.

 

I'm about to get surgery on my foot for another source of pain. But it had to take a very serious turn for doctors to even consider surgery. In this case, I can hardly walk now. It took two years of seeing doctors (and injections) to even arrive at this conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

I have been to the famous MD that treats the famous symphony musicians for repetitive stress hand injuries. He said if MSM works for me then go for it. None of his other therapies seemed to work in my case (cortisone injections, anti-inflammatory drugs stripped the lining of my stomach, massage had no benefits, stretching didn't help enough, acupuncture wasn't very helpful, warm then cool soakings and medicate balms offered minor relief, ultrasound made it worse, wrist braces were no good, a light keyboard action helped, playing with a minimum of effort and tension with a butterfly like touch reduced stress, etc..and so on) It all had limited benefits in my case, the intense pain from inflammation kept coming back for many years. Last weekends episode with MSM made a dramatic improvement unlike any other therapy in my case.

[Jazzwee]

Is this something you'd have to take permamently? Or is it just an anti-inflammatory, having it heal by itself over time?

 

It sounds more like just a replacement to NSAID's, in which case nothing is cured, the symptoms are just hidden.

[kanker.]

I don't think it's supposed to be anti-inflammatory, more that sulfur is supposed to be essential to heathy tendon tissue and for good tendon lubrication. Again, as Dave has pointed out, the science isn't really there on this one. I suspect in my case that the MSM was beneficial to healing, but again, I don't know that for sure.

[Jazz+]

"The effects of supplemental methylsulfonylmethane in biology and medicine are poorly understood. Several researchers have suggested that MSM has anti-inflammatory effects (Morton et al. 1986; Childs, 1994; Murav'ev et al., 1991). Any health effects of dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) may be mediated, at least in part, by MSM (Williams et al, 1966; Kocsis et al, 1975). Stanley W. Jacob, M.D., of the Oregon Health and Science University, claims to have used MSM to treat over 18,000 patients with a variety of ailments (Jacob & Appleton, 2003)."

 

Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane

[Steve Nathan]

Sorry Mr. Horne, but the doctor who put me on Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM is a Vanderbilt University Hospital orthopedic surgeon, considered to be one of the best in his field, worldwide. He is the team ortho surgeon for both the Tennessee Titans and the Nashville Predators. He specifically stated that clinical trials have indicated remarkable success for some, but not all patients and that he had seen within his own practice significant results in 40-50% of his patients.

 

Quackwatch has always had a "baby with the bathwater" approach, with a decidedly clear bias towards traditional western medicine. Western medicine has done many great things for humankind over the years, but they are decidedly not infallible. The list of drugs in the last 10 years alone that have been FDA fast tracked, widely prescribed and then yanked off the market when horrible side effects and deaths occur is only one small indication of the tragedy that is (profit driven) health care in this country.

 

A simple PubMed search for

Methylsulfonylmethane

(MSM) will bring up pages of double blind clinical trials. Here are abstracts of the first two I found.

 

Randomised, Double-Blind, Parallel, Placebo-Controlled Study of Oral Glucosamine, Methylsulfonylmethane and their Combination in Osteoarthritis.

Usha PR, Naidu MU.

 

Department of Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics, Nizam's Institute of Medical Sciences, Hyderabad, India.

 

OBJECTIVE: Glucosamine, classified as a slow-acting drug in osteoarthritis (SADOA), is an efficacious chondroprotective agent. Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), the isoxidised form of dimethyl-sulfoxide (DSMO), is an effective natural analgesic and anti-inflammatory agent. The aim of this study was to compare the efficacy and safety of oral glucosamine (Glu), methylsulfonylmethane (MSM), their combination and placebo in osteoarthritis of the knee. PATIENTS AND DESIGN: A total of 118 patients of either sex with mild to moderate osteoarthritis were included in the study and randomised to receive either Glu 500mg, MSM 500mg, Glu and MSM or placebo capsules three times daily for 12 weeks. Patients were evaluated at 0 (before drug administration), 2, 4, 8 and 12 weeks post-treatment for efficacy and safety. The efficacy parameters studied were the pain index, the swelling index, visual analogue scale pain intensity, 15m walking time, the Lequesne index, and consumption of rescue medicine. RESULTS: Glu, MSM and their combination significantly improved signs and symptoms of osteoarthritis compared with placebo. There was a statistically significant decrease in mean (+/- SD) pain index from 1.74 +/- 0.47 at baseline to 0.65 +/- 0.71 at week 12 with Glu (p < 0.001). MSM significantly decreased the mean pain index from 1.53 +/- 0.51 to 0.74 +/- 0.65, and combination treatment resulted in a more significant decrease in the mean pain index (1.7 +/- 0.47 to 0.36 +/- 0.33; p < 0.001). After 12 weeks, the mean swelling index significantly decreased with Glu and MSM, while the decrease in swelling index with combination therapy was greater (1.43 +/- 0.63 to 0.14 +/- 0.35; p < 0.05) after 12 weeks. The combination produced a statistically significant decrease in the Lequesne index. All treatments were well tolerated. CONCLUSION: Glu, MSM and their combination produced an analgesic and anti-inflammatory effect in osteoarthritis. Combination therapy showed better efficacy in reducing pain and swelling and in improving the functional ability of joints than the individual agents. All the treatments were well tolerated. The onset of analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity was found to be more rapid with the combination than with Glu. It can be concluded that the combination of MSM with Glu provides better and more rapid improvement in patients with osteoarthritis.

 

 

 

Efficacy of methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) in osteoarthritis pain of the knee: a pilot clinical trial.

Kim LS, Axelrod LJ, Howard P, Buratovich N, Waters RF.

 

Southwest College Research Institute, Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine and Health Sciences, Tempe, AZ 85282, USA. l.kim@scnm.edu

 

OBJECTIVE: Osteoarthritis (OA) is the most common form of arthritis and the second most common cause of long-term disability among middle-aged and older adults in the United States. Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) is a popular dietary supplement used as a single agent and in combination with other nutrients, and purported to be beneficial for arthritis. However, there is paucity of evidence to support the use of MSM. METHODS: A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial was conducted. Fifty men and women, 40-76 years of age with knee OA pain were enrolled in an outpatient medical center. Intervention was MSM 3g or placebo twice a day for 12 weeks (6g/day total). Outcomes included the Western Ontario and McMaster University Osteoarthritis Index visual analogue scale (WOMAC), patient and physician global assessments (disease status, response to therapy), and SF-36 (overall health-related quality of life). RESULTS: Compared to placebo, MSM produced significant decreases in WOMAC pain and physical function impairment (P<0.05). No notable changes were found in WOMAC stiffness and aggregated total symptoms scores. MSM also produced improvement in performing activities of daily living when compared to placebo on the SF-36 evaluation (P<0.05). CONCLUSION: MSM (3g twice a day) improved symptoms of pain and physical function during the short intervention without major adverse events. The benefits and safety of MSM in managing OA and long-term use cannot be confirmed from this pilot trial, but its potential clinical application is examined. Underlying mechanisms of action and need for further investigation of MSM are discussed.

 

 

 

Bottom line for me, (if anyone is still reading at this point) is that Gluc/Chond/MSM works for me. Red Yeast Rice works better than pharmaceutical statins for me. Fish oil, Milk Thistle.....all have shown real results, with real improvement measured by (Western) lab tests.

[Dave Horne]

Steve, please, call me Dave and not Mr. Horne.

 

When I was younger, several decades ago, I bought into Linus Pauling's books and treatments - excessively high doses of vitamin C for the treatment of the common cold .... and cancer.

 

This guy was one of two people on our planet to receive two Nobel Prizes .... two! (He was actually the only person to receive two Nobel Prizes that were not shared with another individual. Pretty f****** special, wouldn't you say? I'd place his credits just above your Vanderbilt University doctor.)

 

You know what, his results could not be duplicated. I bought the books, I read them, I believed them. Double blind, peer reviewed testing gets you every time.

 

If that drug works for you, fantastic. I'll wait for more double blind, peer reviewed testing. I'm 57, the only drug I take is alcohol. It does the trick. It comes in various forms .... brown bottles is one of my favorites.

 

I have a friend, a gynecologist, who prescribes homeopathic 'remedies' when the conventional treatment doesn't 'work'. He doesn't believe in homeopathy at all, he only prescribes a homeopathic 'remedy' to keep his patients happy. The point, you do what 'works'. In his case, he still makes money even though the treatment is worthless.

 

Let's meet back here in five years and compare notes. Deal? I'll put this in my Outlook Calendar.

[Jazzwee]

Interesting Steve. And the test dosage on the second one was 3g TWICE A DAY. So that's 6g a day! So Jazz+'s dose was half that.

 

I'm personally going to give it a try.