cdkey Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Question for organ bods, anybody know what effect the number of tone wheels has on the sound of the digital clone organs like c1, xk1 etc.. would this make the sound brighter on one model over another with less digital tone wheels? is there some special number of wheels these are suppose to have equiv to B3/C3/A100 etc..? I am curious after testing a C1 again, versus the small Hammond Suzuki model the little xk1 seemed much brighter (better) on identical drawbar settings through the same speaker and mixer setup. or is there a setting within these to alter characteristics of the organ models that I have not noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 91 tone wheels are necessary to emulate the B-3. The spinets had less, and specialty organs like the X-66 and X-77 had more. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 The Hammonds have 96 digital tonewheels. The XK-3, XK-1 and XM-2 have several sets each of B3 type, mellow (sine wave) and transistor (simulating old transistor Hammond and Vox etc. type organs. Only the XK-3 can the individual tonewheels adjusted. The Hammond owners manuals are available here:http://www.hammondorganco.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdkey Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 OK so this is what clavia mention in the specs for their model but HS quote 96 unless I read a mis print, so just wondering if this made the difference in tone that I could clearly hear even with my none expert ears (never had the real deal so have no benchmark to go from). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdkey Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 thread hi jack, Question while you here mr stubb have you found any glitches with the new os yet for the stage and does the difference for the key settings on organ mode apply only to the weighted models like yours or does it do anything to the compact model like mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I would say the Nord has the most unique tone of the clones. Some people really like it and I would say for certain styles it works well. To my ear the Nord has a very aggressive mid-range tone. You should be familiar with how 888888888 sounds on a real Hammond. It should sound bright, full but not harsh or shrill. Recordings can lie or tell you half truths. If you compare the Nord, XK3 and B4 using the same drawbar setting they are going to sound very different. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 This link will show you how the drawbar combinations build the sound: http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/drawbar.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 The Hammonds have 96 digital tonewheels. The XK-3, XK-1 and XM-2 have several sets each of B3 type, mellow (sine wave) and transistor (simulating old transistor Hammond and Vox etc. type organs. Only the XK-3 can the individual tonewheels adjusted. The Hammond owners manuals are available here: http://www.hammondorganco.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=50 Really? I wonder what the extra 5 tonewheels are for. A real vintage Hammond has 91 as I said. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 thread hi jack, Question while you here mr stubb have you found any glitches with the new os yet for the stage and does the difference for the key settings on organ mode apply only to the weighted models like yours or does it do anything to the compact model like mine? No, no bugs or glitches that I have found. It's a very good OS update as far as I am concerned, but guys who are heavy handed don't like the adjusted velocity curves. Clavia needs to quit trying quick fixes (this is what, the 4th time they have changed them?) and just make them more adjustable. Since they do not produce a different OS for all the models, the changes would definitely apply to the Compact as well. I just don't know if they would be of any practical benefit. I know there was a noticeable improvement on the weighted action though. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 The Hammonds have 96 digital tonewheels. The XK-3, XK-1 and XM-2 have several sets each of B3 type, mellow (sine wave) and transistor (simulating old transistor Hammond and Vox etc. type organs. Only the XK-3 can the individual tonewheels adjusted. The Hammond owners manuals are available here: http://www.hammondorganco.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=50 Really? I wonder what the extra 5 tonewheels are for. A real vintage Hammond has 91 as I said. Pressing the lowest C and moving the 16' drawbar brings up tonewheel 1. Pressing the highest B and moving the 1' drawbar brings up tonewheel 96. The highest C uses tonewheel 85. Foldback is also functional on the 2 2/3', 1 3/5' and 1 1/3' drawbars and the range for the high frequencies is 4G - 5C so the extra tonewheels are probably needed for that. With foldback at 4G, the highest tonewheel is 8F# (TW 91). When set at 5C the highest is 8B (TW 96). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 So what you are saying is that the extra tonewheels are there to cover a non Hammond standard foldback at a higher point? Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdkey Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 So having the extra wheels is not exactly the same as the original sound then? I have read the JmcS post but not exactly sure about the comments about the foldback. Does that mean that the new HS clones have more tones in foldback than the original? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdkey Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 MS (I will give that new stage OS a try out this week) thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcS Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 So having the extra wheels is not exactly the same as the original sound then? I have read the JmcS post but not exactly sure about the comments about the foldback. Does that mean that the new HS clones have more tones in foldback than the original? Yes, they tried to sneak an improvement past us. On the new Hammonds, the top three black drawbars fold back in addition to the 1' drawbar and it appears it can be set five notes lower (or 5 higher, I'm still trying to figure it out) - so in effect, you get/need a few extra tonewheels. It sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdkey Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 Would this give the sound difference that I could detect then when comparing them back to back? (I am not sure how to describe the difference correctly but it sounded a touch nicer to my ears kind of more theatre organ sounding (fuller / richer) on the top end if you get my drift)From what I have read about the real hammonds the later models of tone wheel organs had more didn't they? but were very complex for working on according to my local hammond tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 All B3s, C3s, and A-100s were 91 tonewheel organs. Hammond didn't put in 96 wheels until the last ten years of tonewheel production. Before that the milling technology didn't exist to hob the tiny teeth for the five higher frequency wheels. Most if not all console Hammonds with 96 wheels were solid state, no tube circuits or scanner vibrato. The later version Porta-B had a 91 tonewheel generator even though it was a spinet. This was because it was the only spinet organ with a pedal link to lower manual function, so it needed the full 91 wheel set. I have one of these Porta-Bs and it is a screaming organ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B3bluesman59 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 CDkey said: after testing a C1 again, versus the small Hammond Suzuki model the little xk1 seemed much brighter (better) on identical drawbar settings through the same speaker and mixer setup.________________________________________________________________If the C1 you mention is a real tonewheel Hammond it is certainly old...and the older Hammonds loose their highs as the capacitors, resistors, and other electrical components that were used in those days age. One of the reasons owners "re-cap" their Hammonds is to get the original high frequencies back. Some owners however just let their Hammonds "mellow" prefering that aged tone. It is just a matter of taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdkey Posted July 31, 2007 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 err no... I was refering to the Clone C1 made Clavia/Nord, very small and about as heavy as a box of chocolates and just as nice looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 the older Hammonds loose their highs as the capacitors, resistors, and other electrical components that were used in those days age. One of the reasons owners "re-cap" their Hammonds is to get the original high frequencies back. Some owners however just let their Hammonds "mellow" prefering that aged tone. It is just a matter of taste. That's not the reason for re-capping a Hammond. A tonewheel generates a sine wave, there isn't much high frequency harmonics. The highest fundamental from the generator is about 6Khz and the Leslie and Hammond speaker cabinets have an intentional rolloff at 6Khz to mask the "key click". If you pull only one drawbar out and listen to the level of each key you will notice that some notes are weak, some hot. Most of the notes in the generator have a tank filter consisting of the cap and an inductor. Inductors hold their value over time but caps do not and this impacts the center frequency of the tank filter, IE it is no longer centered on the fundamental of the wheel and the result is an undesired loss of the fundamental. Re-capping a Hammond evens out all the notes and the sound is much more consistent. With fresh caps this brings the tank filter back in line and all the generator notes have even levels. I installed a re-cap kit from Goff in my Porta-B and it made a huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Mike is right regarding recapping the generator, although you can also clean up excessive crosstalk too. But the muffled sound old Hammonds get comes from aged caps in the preamp. Recapping the preamp will fix that. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 So having the extra wheels is not exactly the same as the original sound then? I have read the JmcS post but not exactly sure about the comments about the foldback. Does that mean that the new HS clones have more tones in foldback than the original? Yes, they tried to sneak an improvement past us. On the new Hammonds, the top three black drawbars fold back in addition to the 1' drawbar and it appears it can be set five notes lower (or 5 higher, I'm still trying to figure it out) - so in effect, you get/need a few extra tonewheels. It sounds good to me. When creating a custom tonewheel set based on my 1958 B3, I discovered this. The XK3 indeed has the foldback set 5 notes higher than a real B3. I always thought the extreme high range of the organ sounded weird. I can't believe it took me this long (over a year!) to figure out why! Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latchmo Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 When creating a custom tonewheel set based on my 1958 B3, I discovered this. The XK3 indeed has the foldback set 5 notes higher than a real B3. I always thought the extreme high range of the organ sounded weird. I can't believe it took me this long (over a year!) to figure out why! B3-er, besides the foldback, was there any other glaring differences that you found between the B3 and the XK3 when you were tweaking the XK3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I would say the Nord has the most unique tone of the clones. Some people really like it and I would say for certain styles it works well. To my ear the Nord has a very aggressive mid-range tone. If you compare the Nord, XK3 and B4 using the same drawbar setting they are going to sound very different. Busch. Don't forget that the C1 has three tonewheel sets; clean (default), vintage 1 and vintage 2. I prefer vintage 2, clean sounds too... clean for my taste. Next week I'll be gigging with the C1 -> Speakeasy pre -> Motion-Sound Pro-3t/Low Pro. I'll be back with a review! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 When creating a custom tonewheel set based on my 1958 B3, I discovered this. The XK3 indeed has the foldback set 5 notes higher than a real B3. I always thought the extreme high range of the organ sounded weird. I can't believe it took me this long (over a year!) to figure out why! B3-er, besides the foldback, was there any other glaring differences that you found between the B3 and the XK3 when you were tweaking the XK3? Yes. On my '58, the lower tonewheels (if you pull use a 008 000 000 registration, I'm speaking of the bottom octave) are a bit lower in volume than the XK3 by a few db. Likewise, the very upper tonewheels are quite a bit louder. Also, the key click on the XK3 is sometimes "bass heavy" compared to my B3 and you can filter that out with the HPF function of the XK3. And sometimes the amount of "leakage" from tonewheel to tonewheel is very different, as is the "pitch" of that leakage, all of which can be changed. Are the files that the XK3 saves to a compact flash readable by a PC? Because if so, I would love to share my custom tonewheel set if anybody is interested. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latchmo Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I'd imagine that if you had a card reader you could save the data on the PC. But I don't have a card reader, so I really don't know. Card readers are fairly inexpensive, it would be worth it to be able to swap XK3 settings with different people. I've tweaked my XK3 to where it works for me in my particular band settings with the PRO145. I haven't really got into tweaking the digital tonewheels yet as I don't have a real Hammond in the house to A/B it. (I have a M3/145 rig but it's living in a studio in Brooklyn) I'd be very interested in trying out your tonewheel set if we can make that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Well, I need to get a compact flash card (been meaning to anyway... I don't want to lose my data if/when the internal battery dies) and a card reader. But yeah, I'd like to make that happen as well. It would be neat to get opinions from others on the sound of it. I plan on also creating sets based on my '54 C2 and the mid-60s A100 I just got. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 One beef I have with my XK-3 is that the custom tonewheels on the compact flash card cannot be saved over MIDI sysex. WTF...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 Yes, the user customized tonewheel feature is the coolest feature of the XK-3. I duplicated the tonewheel calibration of my screaming Porta-B into my XK-3, and it sounds great. You will like it when you duplicate your C-2 and A-100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryptojunkie Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 Are the files that the XK3 saves to a compact flash readable by a PC? Because if so, I would love to share my custom tonewheel set if anybody is interested. I'd stand in line for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 I need to make a list of what I have to do tomorrow! I'll keep you guys updated. Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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