Tedster Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Not guitar related...drum related...on getting phat drum sounds live... Thought this would be a cool place for anyone to share tips/secrets of getting phat drum sounds live, especially the kick. I don't play a lot of gigs where miking drums is a necessity (heck, most of my gigs don't even use a drummer these days)... Probably be using a Beta 52 on kick, 57s on snare/hat and toms, not quite sure what the overheads will be yet. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 IF you can get your hands on one, use an AKG D119 for the kick. They have a large diaphragm, and they produce very usuable lows without a lot of EQ. There are a couple of other dedicated kick drum mics, but that one I am personally acquainted with, and it works beautifully. If you can find a smaller diaphragm condenser mic, use that for the snare/highhat combo. The 57's work great for toms, but the small diaphragm condensers work better for overheads. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 The Beta52 is a fabulous start. The 57's are good, but on low toms they'll likely come up short compared to other mics. Still, I've had to use them many times and achieved a wonderful sound. The first thing is to realize that all instruments fill space in the frequency spectrum. Where instruments can be compartmentalized into a certain area you can achieve great separation and clarity with a run-of-the-mill sound system. The first rule of thumb is put the mic where the drum sounds best. Don't just throw it in place and accept what you hear as the sound of that mic on that drum. Mic placement will make a huge difference in the performance of your sound system. For kick I prefer to aim the Beta52 through a hole in the outer drum head, to approx. 1" off the point the beater makes contact with the beater head. Adjust to taste. Also, remember 60Hz will provide quite a bit of oomph to your kick, if you need to add bass on the channel Also remember to embellish/attenuate the beater "click" around 1kHz - 2.5kHz for clarity. The Beta52 is already designed to accentuate these areas, so be careful you don't overdo it. For the situation you describe I'd suggest beginning with a single or double overhead pointed at the floor tom and rack toms from above the drummer. Be sure the stands and mics are out of his line of fire. If he likes to point his stick in the air above his head you'll want to adjust away from that position. I find I can get a really punchy tom sound from this position. In fact, in Guantanamao Bay we were under quick-set tents. I used a clip with mic threads (available at music stores in the drum department, by drum "claws" and clipped it to the support above the drummer's head. Worked like a charm! If you decide to mic each tom, be sure to recognize the consequences of your mic placement. You may or may not want cymbals in your tom mics. angling the mics in one direction or another will add/deter bleed from the cymbals. For snare I go back to listening. I never know what the snare will sound like until I'm with the drummer, so it is imperative to listen to it without, then with the mic and move it appropriately. If you have individual compression/gating there are other techniques you can use, but it sounds like this will be a no processing (or reverb only) gig. Let me know if there are other considerations to take into account. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudcat Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Earthworks manufacures an inline pad that does a really good job with any mic you might use on a kick drum. It's called the Kick Pad . Mudcat's music on Soundclick "Work hard. Rock hard. Eat hard. Sleep hard. Grow big. Wear glasses if you need 'em."-The Webb Wilder Credo- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Originally posted by Picker: IF you can get your hands on one, use an AKG D119 for the kick. They have a large diaphragm, and they produce very usuable lows without a lot of EQ. There are a couple of other dedicated kick drum mics, but that one I am personally acquainted with, and it works beautifully. If you can find a smaller diaphragm condenser mic, use that for the snare/highhat combo. The 57's work great for toms, but the small diaphragm condensers work better for overheads. I believe you mean the D112. AKG has made a D119, but it was a low end drum condenser for toms, etc. The D112 is their primier kick mic, but it doesn't carry nearly as much punch in the low end on its' own as the Beta52. It's very popular in the studio but less popular on the live circuit because the Beta52 and other kick mics carry more bass before eq. I would not use a small diaphragm condenser on the snare. Talk about harsh! They work wonders on the high hat, but it sounds like you won't be covering the hat from your description of the gig. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Without a good pair of sub bass cabinets and the right cross over settings I don't think you can ever get what your talking about. TED you didn't say what the PA consisted of? what are you using for cabinets? http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Originally posted by ellwood: Without a good pair of sub bass cabinets and the right cross over settings I don't think you can ever get what your talking about. TED you didn't say what the PA consisted of? what are you using for cabinets? This is true... in most instances. I mixed at a small bar in Nashville for a year which had 4 EV SX500 cabinets for FOH w/o subs. Due to the small size of the room and the specific acoustics I was able to produce a thump one would not have expected from the woofer end of 4 full range cabs with 15" woofers and 2" horn loaded tweeters. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Originally posted by fantasticsound: Originally posted by ellwood: Without a good pair of sub bass cabinets and the right cross over settings I don't think you can ever get what your talking about. TED you didn't say what the PA consisted of? what are you using for cabinets? This is true... in most instances. I mixed at a small bar in Nashville for a year which had 4 EV SX500 cabinets for FOH w/o subs. Due to the small size of the room and the specific acoustics I was able to produce a thump one would not have expected from the woofer end of 4 full range cabs with 15" woofers and 2" horn loaded tweeters. For sure Neil! like you said if the place is small and IF the small mains don't have to be turned up too much, I just have never heard that chest hiting thump without subs. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted August 17, 2006 Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 Well, let's put it this way. This ain't Cobo Hall or the Ryman we're playing . Just an outdoor barbecue gig. The PA will be small. I'll be using a compressor on the drums, prolly, but I'm not quad-amp electronic crossover'ing anything, just a couple beat up old EV cabs..(1502s) http://www.sdl-veranstaltungsservice.de/img/beschall_EV-1502.gif and a couple Mackie what, C-300s, http://www.musiciansbuy.com/mmMBCOM/images/MACKIE_C300.jpg with a couple more C-300s for monitors. Y'know..Smallville wing and a prayer productions. I just want to add a little mic to the kit to phatten it up out front...and looking for ideas. Y'know, juryrigged stuff. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightningdan Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Getting big fat drums requires a good compressor unit, and good subs, preferably EV 18's. We use a shure kick drum mic, I can't remember the model # but it was made for the kick drum. I use two phantom power overhead mics and just get a good clean ambient sound that way. Out in back of the room it sounds like the drums are playing right by you. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/sixtoedkitty/Miaroxsig.gif I've got my ship, and all her flags are flying. She's all the I've got left, and MUSIC is her name!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvar Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Another thing you can do to tighten up the the drums is cut 250-315hz on either the individual mixer channel or the house eq. "Who's gonna teach the children about Chuck Berry?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Originally posted by fantasticsound: I believe you mean the D112. AKG has made a D119, but it was a low end drum condenser for toms, etc. Yeah, it's been a while since I saw one. Thanx for the correction. My drummer used the D112 live for several years with pretty wonderful results. Originally posted by fantasticsound: I would not use a small diaphragm condenser on the snare. Talk about harsh! They work wonders on the high hat, but it sounds like you won't be covering the hat from your description of the gig. I never got much heartburn from a small diaphragm condensor helping the snare drum cut through a dense mix, particularly when it's doing double duty on the highhat. I guess one man's harshness is another man's crispness. But, that's what makes horseraces... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 You need to move air, and you need to have power and headroom, to get a large drum sound. That means lots of speakers and lots of amps, and lots of AC amperage. Don't have that? Smile, and have a good gig. Everyone can list their favorite mics... I can tell you that all of the mics listed so far are on my list of mics I don't use unless I have to use them. The best drum mixes that I have heard are generally using a mic, not a "kick drum" mic, just a mic. I figure 'dedicated' mics for designs that couldn't make it as a real mic, so they had to find a purpose for it or lose all of that R&D. MY favorite dynamics tghat I would use on a kick drum? Sennheiser MD441, MD421, Beyer M88, EV RE20. Re: Small diaphragm condensers: A small diaphragm condenser will work on almost anything, if you know how to use it. Same can be said for most any mic, but the small diaphragm condenser has a couple of design advantages that tend to make it a superior choice in a lot of situations, provided accuracy is your criteria. The typical SD design is more acurate over a wider frequency response, and has smoother off-axis response than most other types of microphone. Not many people today would consider using a small diaphragm condenser as a vocal mic, but that is exactly what you will find the Beatles singing into, on the rooftop sessions, in the Hey Jude video, and in a number of other situations. There are numerous other places where the SD mic has been used that we would think odd or different today, but all of this is a sidebar to what you are asking. Simply stated... at an outdoor barbeque I don't think that I would worry about it. I'd probably just put the vocals in the PA. At a 'real' outdoor gig, I'd either insist on real production supplied by the promotor, or I'd at least have a sound guy, 'cause there is no way to make this work correctly without one. The impression that I get about this gig is that it is a multifunction deal, and a smart band knows their place in the grand scheme of things. That band goes in, plays good, is fairly painess, doesn't blow everyone out of the place, and makes a lot of friends, future fans, and potential work. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdrs Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 If I was playing out, I'd love to have you doing the sound, Neil!! Don "There once was a note, Pure and Easy. Playing so free, like a breath rippling by." http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=574296 http://www.myspace.com/imdrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Originally posted by ellwood: ..., I just have never heard that chest hiting thump without subs. In my experience, that is 125 cycles, easily pushed out by the standard Perkins bottom that every bar band was carrying in the 70s, or even those half A7s(I forget the number for that horn-only part of the A-7, sorry.). Might not be able to get satisfactory push out of one of the little powered plastic boxes that are so popular today, but I don't think that they are designed to do that. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairfarmer Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Wow...I haven't heard "Perkins" used in any form of text in...ummm, 15 years or so? We use to drag around 4 of them with 4 90* radial loaded 45's stacked on top. Ahhhthememories.... Kerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 Originally posted by Hairfarmer: Wow...I haven't heard "Perkins" used in any form of text in...ummm, 15 years or so? We use to drag around 4 of them with 4 90* radial loaded 45's stacked on top. Ahhhthememories.... Me too. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Anybody remember the VOT A7's and A9's ...lug those around awhile! http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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