confidence

UPDATE ON UPDATE: A used Hammond SKX came up on Ebay for a good price, so I nabbed in and sent the Legend back. I'd played it for several long sessions trying to talk myself into getting used to the action, but it wasn't going to happen. One play on the Hammond and I know I made the right decision. Not that it's particularly fantastic or anything (I don't think the action is quite as good as the mojo that I remember playing) but it's in the ballpark enough that it doesn't get in the way. I now realise it wasn't me; the Legend action was just WRONG. Shame, as it's a great instrument in terms of sound. Some have mentioned they don't mind the action so I don't want to put anyone off. Just be prepared. Haven't dug deep enough into the Hammond to say much more, but I like it a lot so far. Will be glad to have all the preset functionality etc. that I did think was a shortcoming of both Legend and Mojo. Much quicker and easier to bring up known drawbar settings for particular sounds. I'm happy with this. Hammond came with a warranty, stand, basic pedalboard and expression pedal for a couple of hundred quid less than the Legend was new. It's also smaller, both in width and depth, so fits better into the odd bit of wall space I have for it in my studio. Time to play!

It's got to do with the overarching power of the melodic figure, b3 - 2 - 1, and the force of the b3 leading down as a blue note. The chromatic progressions are all rooted in supporting that, and to some extent the blues b5 going on elsewhere as well. This is one reason why the polarity between I7 and IV7, with the 7ths flattened (in this key, C7 & F7) is so central to so much of this gospel sound - because the IV7 contains the b3 of the scale. Where it then goes F7 - F#dim - G, the F#7 is just a passing chord that intensifies the F7 on the way up to G (and happens to do it by using the blues b5, but "spelt" as a #4). Now when you play the "B chord in the right hand" it's not really a B chord. The bass note is a G, and the fundamental harmony is G7. It's just that there an Eb (blues b3) pushing down onto the D and a Gb (blues b5) pushing down onto the F. If you put the Gb and Eb together with the B on the beat in the RH, you then get something that LOOKS like a B chord. A lot of strongly blues-influenced styles a like this: the chords don't always make sense when you just look at them as chords, but if you look at them in the context of the all-powerful melodic impulses it all falls into place. Other thing I would say is that listening to the original, I don't think it's actually a C minor chord on the top of the outro. I think it's just C7 with a bunch of bluesy Ebs over it (or C7#9, if you like). Not sure as I'm listening on crappy laptop speakers, but doesn't the Hammond hit a C chord just before it all comes crashing in? The band as a whole just doesn't sound minor to me the way your piano version does.

What's the difference between a "line mixer" and a "mixer"?

Thanks, will play with that tomorrow. I don't normally use a two-teir keyboard setup, but when I have it's always been with the lower tier at comfortable piano-playing height and the upper a bit higher. But then I probably wasn't ever playing just on the upper for hours at a time, hence the fatigue difference. And you know it's the strangest thing, but I could swear that the upper manual action on this thing is stiffer than the lower manual. I've tried adjusting both height and distance from instrument so my arm's at the same angle on each, and I'm sure I feel a resistance in the upper keys that I don't feel in the lower. I'd say the lower manual is basically comfortable (or at least enough within the range of "acceptable" not to bother me, given how much else is awesome about this instrument). It must be my imagination (after all, if you were going to make the two manuals different, you'd surely make the upper manual lighter to accomodate fast and fancy melodic playing) but I can't seem to get over it.

This has been mentioned in this forum dozens of times. I'm not sure how you could now be surprised by it. I'm not surprised as such - indeed if you look at the beginning of this thread it was one of the things I asked about. But these things are hard to quantify until you actually play them yourself. So the Legend is heavier than the Mojo. How much heavier? There's no number for that, or for trying to predict how I will react to it. As usual, none of these instruments were ahead of the others on every single specification, so I chose the one that I felt was ahead on the most. Obviously I would have preferred to play it first if possible, but as I said above there's literally nowhere in the country to do that. Unfortunately action is a pretty fundamental factor - more fundamental than MIDI spec, number of presets etc. I'll play it a bit more tomorrow and see how I feel but if it's still not comfortable, it'll have to go back. One thing that I did notice is that playing the lower manual was more comfortable than the upper, so I may have been sitting too low. I think I basically set it up so the lower manual was where I would normally have a piano keyboard. The fatigue in my right arm might have been partly from holding it at an unnaturally high angle for too long. Will have to experiment with this tomorrow. It's separating out what is specific to the Legend from what is general about moving from piano to organ.

UPDATE: After much research and soul searching I sprung for a Legend Live, went ahead and ordered one from Thomann without playing it first as there's literally nowhere in the UK to go and play one. Thing sounds fantastic, as so many have said in various ways (I'm not expert enough to give judgments on specific factors, related to original Hammond or other clones). Just been immersed in playing it for a couple of hours, and it definitely confirmed for me why I wanted a straightforward clonewheel and not a two-part controller+sound source kludge. BUT here's the thing: I REALLY don't like the action. it feels MUCH stiffer than I remember the Mojo feeling in the store. Different experience altogether, making it hard to execute fast runs etc. After playing it for a couple of hours, I literally have sore hands and arms. I'm wondering if part of this might be because as a piano player, I'm not used to the sustained demands of getting legato out of an organ, having to keep fingers on notes all the time while other parts move because there's no sustain pedal. Obviously I've played organ sounds and other sounds like that within general MIDI-keyboard setups, but not in the sense of that being the only sound, for a couple of hours. Has anyone else found this transitioning from piano to organ? But I also think it might be partly due to the action. Or to put it another way: Maybe one of the REASONS Hammonds, and organs generally, have light actions is because of the physical demands of playing legato and keeping sound going on them. I'm really thinking of sending it back and getting the Mojo instead, unless anyone can convince me that the action is something I'll get used to over time. It's a while now since I looked at all the specs for these: Apart from the second set of drawbars, is there anything else I'd lose swapping he Legend Live for a Mojo Classic?

The length is certainly what puts me off. It's just such an ungainly way of designing it. An 88-note keyboard is long already - long enough to need considerable wall space in studio, to need a long flightcase, to be hard to get into the back of some cars. The width that you combine that with doesn't really make any difference, within reason. It's not particularly harder to accommodate and transport a keyboard that's 130 x 40 cm, than it is one that's 130 x 30 cm. But you start adding to the length and you're just asking for trouble. I'm actually in process of looking for a 73 or 76-note fully weighted board, partly for the convenience of shorter length as one hardly ever uses those extreme ends anyway. I think I saw that this has MIDI 2.0 capability. Is that something you've used at all?

Ha, you've given me a clever idea. I was about to order a rack shelf like you suggested, when I remembered that I have one of those 1u pull-out drawer things kicking about from ages ago. So what I've down is mount it in the bottom space, but back-to-front, so the back rack ears are mounted to the front of the rack and the drawer can be pulled out the back. That way I figure if I allow just a little slack in the cables between modules and power supplies, I can cable-tie all the power-supplies and multi-socket lead to the drawer, and then I can pull the drawer out the back if I need to tinker with anything, or just to get it out of the way when I want to repatch the mixer.

That Furman looks like a brilliant idea but no, there's no wall warts. Just those damn PITA line lumps. Yep, it's a standard plywood rack.

This is something I've never properly got to grips with, gigging with a MIDI controller and rack unit with modules. How do you sort out all the external power supplies, mountains of cable etc. and fix it down in the back of the rack so it doesn't rattle about in transport? Currently reconfiguring my rack. The enclosure is 4U and has 3 x 1u units in it: two sound modules (one deep one medium) and a rackmount mixer (very shallow). The mixer has an internal power supply and standard IEC lead, but the sound modules both have external power supplies conveniently place halfway along the power lead. One is reasonably small and light but the other is a massive heavy lump. I've mounted the deep sound module in the top of the rack, the medium one under that and the shallow mixer under that. So there's 1u of free space all along the bottom, with a gradually increasing amount as you move back through the rack and the units get progressively shorter, through to the full 4U for the last couple of inches. This leaves the bottom free for fixing things to, and plenty of space for the power supplies etc. plus space to get my hands in and patch things in and out of the mixer when necessary. I now need to get all three units plugged into a multi-socket extension lead and fix the lead, plus the modules' power supplies, to the enclosure for safe transport, leaving the single lead of the multi-socket extension to come out of the rack and plug into house power. In the past whenever I've done this it's always been an unholy mess involving unconventional use of nuts and bolts, brackets and adhesives, much of it screwed or glued to the enclosure itself leaving it looking crappy the next time. (This however is a new enclosure). Would quite like to do it more elegantly, if there is a way. Any tips?

Thanks a lot everyone. The SKX I was looking at has gone now - auction finished earlier, they must have sold it elsewhere or something. But this is great food for thought. Weighing up SKX vs Legend Live, my current thoughts are: - Both have very highly rated core Hammond sound, C/V etc. that will be easily beyond my level of knowledge and experience to judge the finer points of anyway. - SKX has more advanced MIDI spec, but I'm not sure how much that actually means in practice. More presets, which would be useful. Apart from that, given that the Legend transmits everything (note on/off, panel controls etc.) over MIDI anyway, so I could use it as a controller for soft synths in the studio or external sounds at a gig, what else would I want it to do? What exactly would the SKX do better here? - Legend looks and feels more like a Hammond - Legend has four sets of drawbars to SKX's two. - Similar weight. SKX is slightly more compact (which could actually be useful). - SKX has extra non-organ sounds, but users seem to describe these as "OK" or "serviceable" at best, not as anything you'd actually go out of your way to have. I wonder whether I'd be better off just accepting that it has its own internal organ sounds, and then for other sounds I use it as a MIDI controller and get those sounds from my modules. - So far fairly even, with the Legend possibly slightly ahead on core factors and the SKX on additional ones. But the SKX is considerably more expensive, and really more than I want to pay new (while I could JUST see myself pulling the trigger on a new Legend, just to get this all wrapped up). OTOH SKXs do come up second hand in the UK where I am. This was the second one I'd seen in the last few months, and both of them were about the price of a new Legend (but then I wouldn't be getting any warranty). I've never once seen a second hand Legend Live in the UK.

Thanks, that's helpful. I did once play one of the Hammond clones in a store but I can't remember which model it was. They also had a mojo. I liked the sound of both of them, but felt the experience of playing the mojo more immersive. Having said that, I think over time I'd appreciate the flexibility, MIDI spec. etc. of the Hammond. I really don't think I have enough experience to have an opinion about C/V, click etc. I've only played a real Hammond a few times in my life and this will be my first clonewheel. I'm glad you think it's the lightest, but I'm surprised you don't know for sure and can't quote its weight to the nearest gram.

Any opinions about this? Specifically, how does it stack up in sound, action and ergonomics to the Legend and Mojo? I'm looking for a compact two-manual clonewheel and had pretty much decided on the Legend, but they never come up second hand and I'm baulking at paying the new price. A near-new SKX has come up though. I'm attracted by the larger number of preset slots. The extra voices will potentially be useful, but they're not a dealbreaker. But the key thing is the core Hammond sound and feel.

I agree. I'm in the market for a clonewheel right now and love the sound and feel of Mojo, but this is staying my hand. It's sad because in principle I'm really impressed by the idea of someone being able to set up an operation like that as a single person having developed a great product. But I have to be realistic. If it were something costing a couple of hundred pounds I'd probably not worry and just accept the risk, but the cost of these instruments is something I need to take seriously and save and budget for, on a musician's income. I don't begrudge that, but it's not something I can afford to just say "oh well" if it bites the dust just after the warranty has expired.

Let me guess: You sold it to some schmuck on Ebay last fall, saying it was from an estate sale and had never been played blah blah . . . . . ?

It's Korg RH3 action, same as in Kronos.

It's funny you should say that. I actually once had an anxiety dream before a big gig where I walked on stage and sat down at the piano, only to discover that all the keys were reversed in pitch - from the lowest at the far right up to the highest at the far left. I never got to find out what it would sound like trying to play it as I woke up as soon as the horror struck me that the gig was about to start. Probably just as well.

I very much doubt it, given the tempo markings that Beethoven himself wrote on his score. The second movement is marked Prestissimo FFS, That's the very fastest tempo that there's a word for - what you get when allegro isn't enough, molto allegro still isn't enough and even presto STILL isn't enough. Can you seriously listen from 9.41 and tell me that's what you're hearing? It's great that we have Youtube and people can get this stuff out there, and I love a good obsession as much as the next man. But Opus 109 is one of my favourite sonatas and really . . . just no.

Actually I agree. I don't have absolute pitch but I do find it distracting trying to play while hearing the sound come at me in another key. And on second thoughts, the B thing is probably not such a big deal considering there's only two chords in the whole song. B7, E7 and B blues scale: Yep, I can probably handle that. Giant Steps it ain't...

Damn . . . Country just won't die.

For sure. It's mixo, and I agree that 7 chords can create some ambiguity. But the melody continues to spell out C even over the F, and the players solo in C, so I'd have a hard time thinking it's pulling anywhere but there. Having said that, I am going to try to hear it as V-I just for fun; might make a cool New Orleans retake on it some day. It's blues-based funk. That flat7 is the rule, not the exception.

Or they tracked in B as it is but McDonald played in C and had the keyboard transpose it. Let's face it: How often do you get asked to play something in B and how easy is it when you do?

Quick catch. Busted. And I could be mistaken, but on first glance, it looks like he"s playing in F while the recording"s in E. Video take transpose button.

Wow. Would you believe I grew up in the 70s listening to Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin etc. but had never heard of these people. Love the feel and the vocal harmonies - really strong.

Yeah, to be clear: I haven't actually seen or played a PC4 and want to do so before deciding. I'm only going on specs and forum comments etc. Of course there's plastic and there's plastic, and there's more to it than that in appraising build quality. I guess I just mean that once you get weight down to the point where you can carry a board on your own in its case from van to stage (even if it's really heavy), losing more weight beyond that point is less important to me than roadworthiness and build quality. So if the difference between an 18kg board and a 13kg board is due to the fact the former is made of steel and the latter of plastic, I'd rather have the former because it's light enough for me to carry so what's the point of it being any lighter? I'm not planning to use it between sets in my juggling act.