Alternative controllers (touche, rings, breaths, ribbons...)

[mauriziodececco]

There a number of threads on the various alternative controllers, but it would be nice to have a single thread centralising the different experiences and opinions on them.

Since i sold my Roli Block (fun to use live, but essentially i had to heavily edit all the parts i wrote with it in Studio), and while putting aside the money needed for an Osmose,

i am researching in general on alternative expressive controllers.

 

It would be nice if people using one of them could describe its experience, not expecially from the technical point of view, but more in musical terms, like if you got what you where looking for, and the kind of things you get from them you couldn't get from a control pedal or a modwheel.

 

I am in particular interested on experiences with the Touché E/SE. There are a lot of nice videos on Youtube, but in some way i am not still really convinced of what it brings.

 

Maurizio

[analogholic]

Very good topic indeed!

 

Thank you!

 

I have used the Roli block a little...can´t say I mastered PLAYING on it...but fun to give that little extra for simpler playing.

Also been using Yamaha breath-controller via my Kurzweils controlling all kinds of stuff....

 

I would like to see some breath-controller with CV/gate for my analog synths....midi 1.0 seems not be good enough for this

 

Been eyeing the Touché-stuff myself...but just as you, wondering if it would be worth it....

[AnotherScott]

I only saw a video of a ring thing... looked like it could be a cool way to get "aftertouch" out of a keyboard not equipped for it.

[Melving]

Do tell... Not having had the opportunity to play any of these, I'd assume there's a pretty obvious reason that hooking three Roli blocks together hasn't become the default 6 octave MPE wonder?

[GovernorSilver]

While waiting for my Osmose, the GeoShred app is the alternative controller I've been using the most.

 

A bit of jamming with the GeoOboe SWAM instrument. An oboe player didn't like it but I wasn't trying to sound like a real oboe player. If anything I was thinking more like a zurna player.

 

[video:youtube]

[Tusker]

While waiting for my Osmose, the GeoShred app is the alternative controller I've been using the most. A bit of jamming with the GeoOboe SWAM instrument.

 

Sweet! It's cool to hear the duet with voice.

 

An oboe player didn't like it but I wasn't trying to sound like a real oboe player.

 

Illegitimi non carborundum. I get grief from the acoustic players too. When VL physical modeling first came out the folks at Yamaha, started describing some of the VL instruments as "syncoustics," as a way of saying we are not really trying to sound exactly like you. But in a sense yes we are borrowing from you. There are plenty of wind players running their instruments through filters and synthesizers. No worries. As far as I am concerned, it's all good for music.

[Tusker]

It would be nice if people using one of them could describe its experience, not expecially from the technical point of view, but more in musical terms, like if you got what you where looking for, and the kind of things you get from them you couldn't get from a control pedal or a modwheel.

 

I've used the Yamaha BC for several years and I love it. I have also enjoyed using Liine Lemur/Animoog on an Ipad and the Leap Motion GECO on a laptop. At the moment I am using Touche SE mostly, but I use the other tools also.

 

With all the controllers, most of the problems are still in your mind and in your body. You have to decide if the controller creates the substance of your sound (i.e. if it is substantive, without it there will be no sound or very little sound) or if it will be decorative to an existing sound the same way that pitch and mod wheels usually work: there is a sound when your finger hits the keys and then you can decorate it with the pitch and mod wheels. If you decide to go with the first path, you will need to train yourself, just like taking piano or violin lessons. Sometimes the effort is worth it, sometimes less so, depending on your musical goals and circumstances. If you are playing in pop/rock music and particularly as part of a large ensemble, most of the time it's not worth looking at alternate controllers. Modwheels and control pedals are fine. If you are playing in a small ensemble or if you are using your computer to create intimate timbres (think duduk, a small violin section, etc.), it starts to make more sense. Well, what about purely synthesized sound? Yes, these are very good for that type of control also. In fact, I think the next Vangelis will be using alternative controllers a lot!!

 

If you are looking for an extra measure of control, your mind and body may still not allow you to make full use of a perfectly good controller. With Geco, I found myself limiting the number of dimensions of control, mostly because I couldn't be effective with all it's potential. I've seen other people do more with it. Props to them.

 

With the Touche, you get four behaviors which are called "shiftings". Each one sends a MIDI cc. The front and rear shiftings are basically pressure pads. The left and right shiftings are spring loaded like a pitch wheel, which means you can't send the left message at the same time as the right message. So at any point in time you can have three messages: front, rear and either left or right. Also the front and rear are quite stable as you can rest your hand gently on the pads. This means that the front and rear can be substantive, but the left and right have to be decorative. A decoration can modulate pitch or timbre or any other aspect of the sound, depending on what sound source you are using. It's just a cc that you can send to any component of your signal chain. I tend to use the front shifting for the basic body of the sound, the rear shifting for cross-fading a second timbre or something gentle like vibrato. The right and left shiftings are usually used for pitch bend or for special decorations like a growl or a pitch envelope (tiyoo).

 

One of the sounds I control with Touche is a physically modeled cornet. The instrument was originally made by Chet Singer for the Reaktor platform. The formants were adjusted downward to make it a bit warmer. You can imagine a cornet with the longer tubes of a french horn. It has a brighter blare than a flugel horn and has more fundamental frequency than a trumpet. It goes through a static flanger which can sound a bit like a mute. This allows you to signal to the listener that it is not a "traditional" instrument, but it's still evocative of a traditional sound. The flanger allows you to vary the basic timbre of the instrument as you play. On the front shifting of Touche, we have the body of the sound, so if we don't press the front pad, it is silent. The rear shifting provides a gentle vibrato, the left shifting provides a rasp. The right shifting adjusts the amount of mute (flanger). Finally, the sound goes through a finishing stage of distortion, delay and reverb. This instrument is mostly Chet's excellent work which is customized for taste and for Touche. In the next couple of days, I'll send you a musical example. Hope this helps.

[Tusker]

I am in particular interested on experiences with the Touché E/SE.

 

Hopefully this rough and ready iPhone video will show you one example of how Touche can be used ...

 

 

[video:youtube]

[Dr Mike Metlay]

Do tell... Not having had the opportunity to play any of these, I'd assume there's a pretty obvious reason that hooking three Roli blocks together hasn't become the default 6 octave MPE wonder?

Several, none particularly obvious. In no particular order:

 

1. The feel of a Seaboard bothers a lot of players. I have heard it described as playing a dildo.

 

2. Hooking several of them together doesn't provide a unified surface for pitch bends of more than two octaves, which are fun sometimes.

 

3. The charging system can be a bit fiddly, and the programming interface on computers can be VERY fiddly. It's nowhere near as transparently plug and play as they say it is, unless you only use one Block by itself.

 

4. It's ROLI. Google the company and its ongoing financial woes and embarrassingly awful Kickstarter campaigns; I backed out of the Lumi KS in the middle, got my money back, and have never considered their products again.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

I had a Touché SE for a while. The problems I had with it were ergonomic; there was no comfortable way for me to put it to use in my studio. But it's exceptionally well made and the client software is wonderful, to say nothing of the many excellent optimized sound libraries out there (some of them free to owners). It actually requires a fairly delicate touch for real nuance; I am fairly hamfisted, and never got as much out of it as I might have.

[mate stubb]

Stand alone ribbon controllers have certain phallic possibilities.

 

http://hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/ribbon2.jpg

[MathOfInsects]

I only saw a video of a ring thing... looked like it could be a cool way to get "aftertouch" out of a keyboard not equipped for it.

I think you might be referring to the Hot Hand?

 

[GovernorSilver]

While waiting for my Osmose, the GeoShred app is the alternative controller I've been using the most. A bit of jamming with the GeoOboe SWAM instrument.

 

Sweet! It's cool to hear the duet with voice.

 

An oboe player didn't like it but I wasn't trying to sound like a real oboe player.

 

Illegitimi non carborundum. I get grief from the acoustic players too. When VL physical modeling first came out the folks at Yamaha, started describing some of the VL instruments as "syncoustics," as a way of saying we are not really trying to sound exactly like you. But in a sense yes we are borrowing from you. There are plenty of wind players running their instruments through filters and synthesizers. No worries. As far as I am concerned, it's all good for music.

 

Thank you for the listen and kind thoughts. Much appreciated.

 

The oboist objected to how I was fading in the notes, on the grounds that it's impossible to initiate a note on an oboe without an attack. He's technically right in that when I listen closely, there is always an attack, however subtle, in oboe phrasing. He also insisted that all notes should have vibrato, because an oboe - to his ears - sounds horrible without it. I was subconsciously imposing my own bias regarding vibrato. I also play viola and guitar, and eventually came to dislike the overuse of vibrato. I treat vibrato like sugar - some can be applied to sweeten a dish, but too much can be sickening, imo.

 

The Osmose demos I've seen and heard so far indicate a willingness to create virtual instruments that behave and respond like real acoustic instruments, without being chained to a requirement for a 100% faithful recreation of any real world instruments. That's up my alley.

[MathOfInsects]

While waiting for my Osmose, the GeoShred app is the alternative controller I've been using the most.

 

A bit of jamming with the GeoOboe SWAM instrument. An oboe player didn't like it but I wasn't trying to sound like a real oboe player. If anything I was thinking more like a zurna player.

 

[video:youtube]

Just curious why the C's are red. An "avoid" tone in G?

[GovernorSilver]

Just curious why the C's are red. An "avoid" tone in G?

 

I think it's just a default setting for Root in the Keyboard section of the settings. I just now tried changing root to Ab and sure enough all the Ab notes turned red and the C's turned blue

[mauriziodececco]

It would be nice if people using one of them could describe its experience, not expecially from the technical point of view, but more in musical terms, like if you got what you where looking for, and the kind of things you get from them you couldn't get from a control pedal or a modwheel.

With all the controllers, most of the problems are still in your mind and in your body. You have to decide if the controller creates the substance of your sound (i.e. if it is substantive, without it there will be no sound or very little sound) or if it will be decorative to an existing sound the same way that pitch and mod wheels usually work: there is a sound when your finger hits the keys and then you can decorate it with the pitch and mod wheels. If you decide to go with the first path, you will need to train yourself, just like taking piano or violin lessons. Sometimes the effort is worth it, sometimes less so, depending on your musical goals and circumstances.

 

Thanks, very interesting ideas.

 

One of the things i am looking at is the BBC2 breath controller; the reason is that i have been playing the Melodica for a year or so, and now i find very natural to use breath and the keyboard (using breath as substantive controller), and i suppose that, while surely requiring adaptation in the technique, the mind/body attitude shouldn't be too far.

 

About my actual need, is somehow wide; i play jazz/funk in a group, and ambient/electro/jazz in another, and i compose minimalist music (acoustic and electronic) and sometime music for (short) films; the need can be simply defined as "having more musical fun playing" :->

 

Maurizio

[Melving]

Like playing a dildo? How would...? Anyway, now that you put it that way...

 

Yes, sort of difficult to know about digital fussiness from a distance.

 

As much as I hate to admit it, even in my home studio, we do break things at times. So eventually having the company alive matters...

 

Thanks!

[Ed A.]

Since i sold my Roli Block (fun to use live, but essentially i had to heavily edit all the parts i wrote with it in Studio), and while putting aside the money needed for an Osmose,

i am researching in general on alternative expressive controllers.

 

It would be nice if people using one of them could describe its experience, not expecially from the technical point of view, but more in musical terms, like if you got what you where looking for, and the kind of things you get from them you couldn't get from a control pedal or a modwheel.

 

I am in particular interested on experiences with the Touché E/SE. There are a lot of nice videos on Youtube, but in some way i am not still really convinced of what it brings.

 

 

I had both the Seaboard Block and Seaboard RISE 49 but returned both. I got use to the spongy feel but there were build/design issues with them. The Block seemed like it was not carefully made, rough edges on where the silicone met the body. The RISE had a problem where the response two octaves in on the "keyboard" was inconsistent when doing a slide gesture compared to all other keys. I was told that that was normal because the design of the RISE 49 was actually two RISE 25's combined in one case. The point where they met was causing the problem. It was a design oversight I didn't want to put up with.

 

I also had a Touché SE for a while, but I just didn't get a feel for it. It was hard to configure and seemed kind of gimmicky to me. It was more trouble than it was worth.

 

My latest venture into alternative controllers is the Sensel Morph, I got the keyboard overlay and just ordered the Buchla Thunder overlay too. I like the feel of the overlay, I originally thought it would be like playing the surface of an iPad, but the black keys are slightly raised and there are indentations between the white keys, giving a somewhat tactile playing experience I was easily able to adapt to. The nice thing about the Sensel Morph is it's much more sensitive and responsive than the ROLI touch surfaces.

Also, the overlays can be "hot swapped" without shutting off or resetting the Sensel Morph, it senses what overlay is currently used and automatically configures for it.

 

[Tusker]

One of the things i am looking at is the BBC2 breath controller; the reason is that i have been playing the Melodica for a year or so, and now i find very natural to use breath and the keyboard (using breath as substantive controller), and i suppose that, while surely requiring adaptation in the technique, the mind/body attitude shouldn't be too far.

 

About my actual need, is somehow wide; i play jazz/funk in a group, and ambient/electro/jazz in another, and i compose minimalist music (acoustic and electronic) and sometime music for (short) films; the need can be simply defined as "having more musical fun playing" :->

 

Maurizio

 

Nice! Would love to hear your music sometime.

 

In your situation I would lean toward the BBC2 as well. With your harmonica background the return for effort should be high. It would seem that an important idiom for you would be the "Orchestral swell". This is where an entire ensemble of notes swells/declines together. Using a breath controller or swell pedal frees both hands for voiceleading. A lot of soundtrack can be generated quickly with that setup and decorated later. Not that different from the pipe organists who accompanied the silent movies! It seems that Osmose will provide the same sensibilities on a per note basis, but I have not yet played one.

 

It helps to know our musical purposes. To make some gross generalizations, BBC2 and pedals excel at swells. Touch pads like Touche excel at finger percussion. Rolie, Osmose and Poly AT excel at per-note articulations (especially of pitch, which is the trickiest domain to master). Long ribbons excel at single note pitch. Each of them can do other things of course, and so can our keyboards. What a good time to be a musician!

[mauriziodececco]

This instrument is mostly Chet's excellent work which is customized for taste and for Touche. In the next couple of days, I'll send you a musical example. Hope this helps.

 

Is the Reaktor instrument available somewhere (the original or the customized one) or is private development ?

 

Maurizio

[Tusker]

This instrument is mostly Chet's excellent work which is customized for taste and for Touche. In the next couple of days, I'll send you a musical example. Hope this helps.

 

Is the Reaktor instrument available somewhere (the original or the customized one) or is private development ?

 

Maurizio

 

It's free. Chet Singer has generously made a number of excellent Reaktor Instruments for the Reaktor user community. You will find them here:

 

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/reaktor-community/reaktor-user-library/all/all/all/300659/

 

Many of these Ensembles focus on some type of physical modeling (brass, bowed string, reeds, flutes, etc.) I used the Dannenberg Brass instrument, which Chet based on Dr. Roger Dannenberg's work at Carnegie Mellon. I tweaked some settings in the Chet's Reaktor instrument, added some midi processing for Touche and added an effects chain using stock Logic Pro X plugins. The only thing that makes it sound different to Chet's model is that Chet is trying to make it sound like a Cornet and I am trying to make it sound not like a Cornet, lol. There is a Touche-controlled flanger and distortion circuit which do that for me in Logic. I can send you my Logic Pro X patch, or you can customize Chet's original instrument to your taste in your DAW. An alternative to these types of Reaktor ensembles are the excellent Audio Modeling SWAM instruments, which reportedly pair beautifully with BBC2, one of the controllers you are considering. With the SWAM instruments you pay for each one and they are less tweakable, but they are quite beautiful.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

While waiting for my Osmose, the GeoShred app is the alternative controller I've been using the most.

 

A bit of jamming with the GeoOboe SWAM instrument...

Just curious why the C's are red. An "avoid" tone in G?

The GeoShred in the video has been set up so the UI tells the player that it's in C. Many players leave it in this setup all the time, so they can play a single layout with minimal confusion (i.e. root notes that move around and potentially confuse your fingerings).

[Dr Mike Metlay]

I only saw a video of a ring thing... looked like it could be a cool way to get "aftertouch" out of a keyboard not equipped for it.

I think you might be referring to the Hot Hand?

More likely the Enhancia Neova or the GENKI Instruments Wave Ring. The Hot Hand has been around for a long time and has been improved steadily, but isn't as universally useful as these two wireless MIDI control devices.

[mauriziodececco]

This instrument is mostly Chet's excellent work which is customized for taste and for Touche. In the next couple of days, I'll send you a musical example. Hope this helps.

 

Is the Reaktor instrument available somewhere (the original or the customized one) or is private development ?

 

Maurizio

 

It's free. Chet Singer has generously made a number of excellent Reaktor Instruments for the Reaktor user community. You will find them here:

 

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/reaktor-community/reaktor-user-library/all/all/all/300659/

 

 

Thanks a lot, i'll try them; i decided, based on this discussion and previous analysis, to go for the BBC2 , so i'll try to customize the instruments in that direction; well it may happens that i ask you some suggestions in the process :->

 

By the way, i think that, if i successfully put together my musicians brain with my software developer brain, some JavaScript for Logic Pro/Mainstage can be useful, for exemple to have behaviours like the Arché strings VIs, where is the controller that start the note.

 

Do you (or somebody else) knows the Respiro VI; it seems oriented to breath controllers or real wind midi controllers like the EWIs.

 

Maurizio

[Tusker]

Thanks a lot, i'll try them; i decided, based on this discussion and previous analysis, to go for the BBC2 , so i'll try to customize the instruments in that direction; well it may happens that i ask you some suggestions in the process :->

 

Anytime brother Maurizio.

 

By the way, i think that, if i successfully put together my musicians brain with my software developer brain, some JavaScript for Logic Pro/Mainstage can be useful, for exemple to have behaviours like the Arché strings VIs, where is the controller that start the note.

 

ð Love the Arche strings. I'd love to be able to use Touche (CC16) to restart envelopes on other VIs. With more sophisticated synths such as physical modeling (breath pressure) and modular synths (gate/trigger, conditional logic), you can do some of this within the synth. But there are some really great sounding synths and orchestral libraries which do not. It could be really useful.

 

Do you (or somebody else) knows the Respiro VI; it seems oriented to breath controllers or real wind midi controllers like the EWIs.

 

Pedro Eustache's musical work is an inspiration for me. I could see how Respiro could be perfect for a good EVI player who wants to focus more on expression and less on sound design. Some of our other members may have direct experience with it. I am going to stay with Reaktor.

[mauriziodececco]

By the way, i think that, if i successfully put together my musicians brain with my software developer brain, some JavaScript for Logic Pro/Mainstage can be useful, for exemple to have behaviours like the Arché strings VIs, where is the controller that start the note.

 

ð Love the Arche strings. I'd love to be able to use Touche (CC16) to restart envelopes on other VIs. With more sophisticated synths such as physical modeling (breath pressure) and modular synths (gate/trigger, conditional logic), you can do some of this within the synth. But there are some really great sounding synths and orchestral libraries which do not. It could be really useful.

 

OK, i'll get the BBC2 next week; i'll play around with scripts and i'll let you know

 

Maurizio