Stereo pianos in MONO

[Reezekeys]

One byproduct of being out of work for ten months is that you have time on your hands. Apropos of a recent thread debating the merits (or lack thereof) of sending a stereo piano feed to a house PA in mono, as threatened, I made this short (1:11) video. Here I"m goofing around on my keyboard while switching among three mono 'configurations' to see which one sounds the best in a situation where you wanted to - or had to - send a mono feed to a house PA. I have a definite opinion on the matter which some of you may already know, but I was curious about how others might react to these sounds. This is kind of a 'blindfold test' - I don"t mention which excerpt is left channel only, right only, or both left & right summed. I do identify by number when I switch these output setups, so ladies & gentlemen step right up and test your skills! I would be curious if there was an actual consensus as to which of the three examples sound best. I think they all⦠never mind, I"ll wait on expressing my opinion!

 

[video:youtube]

[MathOfInsects]

I guess if you made me choose, I could convince myself that 2 sounds best. 1 and 2 sound most similar, with 3 maybe sounding a little choked. BUT....I wouldn't care which one you used for FOH, and everything I'm saying is colored by me knowing there are supposed to be three different things to listen for.

 

Cool experiment. I think you should split it into three separate small videos, one with each setting, so we can bounce around A/Bing each one. (I dropped the needle on the vid to try to mimic that, but am definitely affected by knowing, "OK, this is going to be different now!")

[AnotherScott]

Listened through my computer monitor's speakers.

 

#1 sounds worst.

#2 sounds best.

 

One more variable if the particular piano sample at hand, particularly when it comes to summing L+R into a mono signal. Some stereo piano sample some to mono nicely, some do not.

[drawback]

Listened through headphones, and agree that #2 sounds best.

[KuruPrionz]

I put headphones on and listened carefully, once.

 

It's difficult to place this into context since I don't know what sort of gigs you are playing, where they are played, if you have a FOH soundman, what the room (or is it outdoors?) sounds like and if the soundman still can hear or is deaf as a post. All of those things matter.

 

In the context of just about all the gigs I was playing before gigging stopped, any of those 3 tones would work fine. In the context of what would now be a 5 piece rock/country/blues/pop band chugging out their own versions of other people's songs (mostly) with a few originals tossed in here and there it should fit in pretty well. But then there really isn't much room in the mix for more low frequency information, the bass and kick have that covered and both guitarists are careful not to cloud up the bottom end.

 

One of the places we play has a full stereo PA, both the mains and the monitors. You could run stereo there, it's a great sounding room with good quality speakers in good condition. But, they have a Steinway baby grand that is well maintained and is plenty loud enough for the room, it is available and on wheels for musicians who want it. We keep our volume way down there and it sounds beautiful.

 

I'll check back in, this is fun thread so far!

[Reezekeys]

I think you should split it into three separate small videos, one with each setting, so we can bounce around A/Bing each one. (I dropped the needle on the vid to try to mimic that, but am definitely affected by knowing, "OK, this is going to be different now!")

 

Good suggestion - I just can't imagine anyone putting in the work to open three separate videos! How about this - here are links to the specific times in my video. You can open each in its own window and switch between them:

 

[KuruPrionz]

It is further noted that you did not include the "stereo" sounds for comparison and yet I suspect that is what you are comparing these mono sounds with?

 

And, is it truly stereo or dual mono? I will run two guitar amps sometimes, one with just a bit of reverb and the other with a touch of modulation or other effects.

While it widens the sound field, by definition it is dual mono, not stereo.

 

A keyboard could offer true stereo but I don't know if yours does that or at some point they split the signal in parallel and make changes to each output channel.

[Reezekeys]

It's difficult to place this into context since I don't know what sort of gigs you are playing, where they are played, if you have a FOH soundman, what the room (or is it outdoors?) sounds like and if the soundman still can hear or is deaf as a post. All of those things matter.

 

My little video example wasn't meant to simulate the exact sound you'd hear at a gig, except that I did put a reverb on the output â and that was stereo. I wanted to simulate a "space" that the mono sound would live in, something like being at a gig. But this was more about the initial quality of the raw sound coming out of my key rig. If that's not happening, no room or sound man will improve it. Sure, it matters less if acoustic piano is not prominent in the band sound, but that's another variable and not directly related to what I'm showcasing in my examples.

 

Before getting back into the debate of which is "better" for gigs (and the big reveals as to which example is which), maybe let a few more folks throw in their .02. I'm actually surprised this has gotten the attention it has!

[MathOfInsects]

 

Before getting back into the debate of which is "better" for gigs (and the big reveals as to which example is which), maybe let a few more folks throw in their .02. I'm actually surprised this has gotten the attention it has!

Yeah, who ever would have thought the Corner would turn out to have a bunch of tweaky nerds who would dissect and debate the nature of sound and the relative benefits of mono vs stereo???

 

[KuruPrionz]

It's difficult to place this into context since I don't know what sort of gigs you are playing, where they are played, if you have a FOH soundman, what the room (or is it outdoors?) sounds like and if the soundman still can hear or is deaf as a post. All of those things matter.

 

My little video example wasn't meant to simulate the exact sound you'd hear at a gig, except that I did put a reverb on the output â and that was stereo. I wanted to simulate a "space" that the mono sound would live in, something like being at a gig. But this was more about the initial quality of the raw sound coming out of my key rig. If that's not happening, no room or sound man will improve it. Sure, it matters less if acoustic piano is not prominent in the band sound, but that's another variable and not directly related to what I'm showcasing in my examples.

 

Before getting back into the debate of which is "better" for gigs (and the big reveals as to which example is which), maybe let a few more folks throw in their .02. I'm actually surprised this has gotten the attention it has!

 

No worries, I'm done thinking of stuff now. I will be watching, this is an interesting thread.

 

Edited to add, if I got a bit "tweaky" or "persnickety" it is in the context of the OP, at least as I read and hear it. I am interested in the comments by others, I'll be checking in here and there.

Cheers, Kuru

[MathOfInsects]

Edited to add, if I got a bit "tweaky" or "persnickety" it is in the context of the OP, at least as I read and hear it. I am interested in the comments by others, I'll be checking in here and there.

Cheers, Kuru

 

Oh, no--I was making fun of all of us. It's exactly up the alley of every person here. Including the dweeb who responded first...

[AnotherScott]

Including the dweeb who responded first...

You beat me by mere seconds! ;-)

[MathOfInsects]

Including the dweeb who responded first...

You beat me by mere seconds! ;-)

:roll: :roll:

[The Piano Man]

1 - right

2 - left

3 - right and left

 

Sound source - Gem RP-X. Program no.1

 

I mean, I don"t know if any of this is correct, or if I have even understood the rules, but 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'

[Reezekeys]

It's the Native Instruments Grandeur. That wasn't meant to be a secret (I mention it on the youtube page) and I wasn't asking anyone to try and guess the piano - it's more about judging the quality of it's stereo output when made into mono.

 

As far as your guesses on the output streams.... you're close! :-)

[Reezekeys]

OK well the groundswell of enthusiastic piano-listeners has failed to materialize other, than the few commenters here, so I'll cut to the chase. To those who pronounced example #2 as best-sounding, good job; you guys picked the left + right feed. Example #1 is the right channel by itself and #3 is the left channel. I may have more to add on my take-aways from this little experiment later.

[jazzpiano88]

OK well the groundswell of enthusiastic piano-listeners has failed to materialize other, than the few commenters here, so I'll cut to the chase. To those who pronounced example #2 as best-sounding, good job; you guys picked the left + right feed. Example #1 is the right channel by itself and #3 is the left channel. I may have more to add on my take-aways from this little experiment later.

I misread the challenge and thought you were asking which one we preferred to be sent to a Mono PA from the output of a stereo keyboard with prior knowledge of the examples. I thought it was

example (1) Right Only

example (2) Left Only

example (3) Left + Right

and I missed your statement "I don"t mention which excerpt is left channel only, right only, or both left & right summed. I do identify by number when I switch these output setups"

 

I couldn't figure out why (2) Left Only sounded best.

It was totally obvious (2) sounded the richest with better bass while (1) and (2) are thin, especially in the midrange.

 

Isn't it sort of to be expected that you wouldn't want to listen to only the L or R of a stereo patch?

My understanding is that most stereo keyboards send L, R separately when plugs are inserted into both, but send L+R from one of the outputs (usually L) when the other ® doesn't have a connection as with Yamaha gear.

So if I was sending a signal to a mono PA from my Yamaha CP300 I would plug the L(Mono) 1/4 inch plug into a direct box and subsequently into the snake, resulting in L+R, as opposed to the ® 1/4 inch output. I could send either (L) or ® to the PA but it would require a dummy plug being inserted into ® to obtain the (L) signal.

[AnotherScott]

Isn't it sort of to be expected that you wouldn't want to listen to only the L or R of a stereo patch?

Yes... but sometimes it could be the "least bad" option...

 

... if you must play through a mono PA. Listening to only the L or only the R could be the way to go, if all the piano patches in your board are stereo and none of them sum to mono without creating phasing issues

 

... and *maybe* even if your PA is stereo, and the room is set up such that most of the audience is substantially off-center, in which case it is possible that some form of mono for everyone might be better than stereo, and then the question is, which mono configuration provides the most pleasing result. And I think that's the possible scenario that prompted this thread. And I think it's an interesting experiment, but I'm not sure that the results for "Native Instruments Grandeur" necessarily can be applied to what you'd experience doing the same test from a Nord, MODX, Kronos, Casio, etc., since they may sum to stereo with different results.

[jazzpiano88]

Isn't it sort of to be expected that you wouldn't want to listen to only the L or R of a stereo patch?

Yes... but sometimes it could be the "least bad" option...

 

... if you must play through a mono PA. Listening to only the L or only the R could be the way to go, if all the piano patches in your board are stereo and none of them sum to mono without creating phasing issues

 

... and *maybe* even if your PA is stereo, and the room is set up such that most of the audience is substantially off-center, in which case it is possible that some form of mono for everyone might be better than stereo, and then the question is, which mono configuration provides the most pleasing result. And I think that's the possible scenario that prompted this thread. And I think it's an interesting experiment, but I'm not sure that the results for "Native Instruments Grandeur" necessarily can be applied to what you'd experience doing the same test from a Nord, MODX, Kronos, Casio, etc., since they may sum to stereo with different results.

So in that case, I guess you just have to run the experiment. In all of my years of Yamaha and Roland stereo outputs I just went with the plug labeled L/Mono and assumed no sane company would release a patch that was broken, if only for marketing (Guitar Center Keyboard Customer/User) reasons :).

I could imaging that certain VSTs abosolutely require stereo, but is there a gigging keyboard that has a broken L+R mono piano due to the phasing issues you mention?

[MathOfInsects]

is there a gigging keyboard that has a broken L+R mono piano due to the phasing issues you mention?

 

Nord does not use L/Mono, for reasons known only to them. Each output is its own share of the signal. HOWEVER: they do have a Mono button on the front to do the job for you.

[jazzpiano88]

is there a gigging keyboard that has a broken L+R mono piano due to the phasing issues you mention?

 

Nord does not use L/Mono, for reasons known only to them. Each output is its own share of the signal. HOWEVER: they do have a Mono button on the front to do the job for you.

 

Not sure if I would call it 'broken' but some boards sum L+R better than others. I had a couple of Kurzweil boards that summed to mono quite nicely (i.e., no phasing issues) where as when I first got my Nord Stage (classic) it felt like I was playing in quicksand. Fortunately, Nord has since improved this situation.

I had suspected Nord was a culprit based on looking at their outputs. You would have to do a deep dive to make any sense of (1) (2) (3) (4) outputs. I think Math has it right... you have to figure out the linear combination of coefficients using linear algebra to get your intended sound.

[Moonglow]

My beloved Kronos also does not sum to mono very well. Overall, I wish keyboards had more dedicated mono piano patches.

[Reezekeys]

JP88: As Scott said, phase cancellation & reinforcement issues can sometimes make for a better mono sound from just one of the sides; that's what I was investigating here. I agree that #2, summed L&R, sounds better but the difference is not that drastic and I would not be able to tell anything was amiss if I walked into a club and listened to a band playing and heard what's on these examples. I also think the piano I used (NI Grandeur) sums to mono better than my previous one (NI New York). Also, using the stereo reverb on my examples helps a lot. Listening to these totally dry, especially using cans, would unmask some of the more undesirable properties of the sound. In short, imo it's just a good idea to keep stereo piano samples stereo - regardless of how folks on each side of a stage might be missing the sweet spot â any amount of "stereoness" in the sound is better than the summed or isolated L/R stream, imo. I think I proved that the bass notes don't disappear when listening to the right channel, and the same with treble notes in the left. So any of these streams, imo, are "workable" in a band situation through a PA if you had to be mono. If the piano is exposed, like a solo or duo situation, I know I would be able to hear the deficiencies right away. Joe & Jane sixpack â how would they? From my perspectice as a player I also know I would be very unhappy playing a mono acoustic piano. Then again I've been stereo for the last 21 years! (I looked at my old Quicken file to see when I bought my two Mackie SRM450s... December 1999!).

[jazzpiano88]

JP88: As Scott said, phase cancellation & reinforcement issues can sometimes make for a better mono sound from just one of the sides; that's what I was investigating here. I agree that #2, summed L&R, sounds better but the difference is not that drastic and I would not be able to tell anything was amiss if I walked into a club and listened to a band playing and heard what's on these examples. I also think the piano I used (NI Grandeur) sums to mono better than my previous one (NI New York). Also, using the stereo reverb on my examples helps a lot. Listening to these totally dry, especially using cans, would unmask some of the more undesirable properties of the sound. In short, imo it's just a good idea to keep stereo piano samples stereo - regardless of how folks on each side of a stage might be missing the sweet spot â any amount of "stereoness" in the sound is better than the summed or isolated L/R stream, imo. I think I proved that the bass notes don't disappear when listening to the right channel, and the same with treble notes in the left. So any of these streams, imo, are "workable" in a band situation through a PA if you had to be mono. If the piano is exposed, like a solo or duo situation, I know I would be able to hear the deficiencies right away. Joe & Jane sixpack â how would they? From my perspectice as a player I also know I would be very unhappy playing a mono acoustic piano. Then again I've been stereo for the last 21 years! (I looked at my old Quicken file to see when I bought my two Mackie SRM450s... December 1999!).

Makes sense. I agree that the difference is not drastic and the L or R alone would be fine in a club.

And I agree that that Stereo is the way to go. Like you say, not only because of the lack of drawback for the listener, but for the inspiration of the pianist. I've always used stereo on stage (monitoring) regardless of the PA for my own inspiration.

[Reezekeys]

I'm with you 100% - I do stereo for me first. Of course I wish for the audience to hear my piano like I do, but it doesn't always work out that way. That's life â on to the next gig. I wish I knew when that was gonna be! :-)

[jazzpiano88]

I'm with you 100% - I do stereo for me first. Of course I wish for the audience to hear my piano like I do, but it doesn't always work out that way. That's life â on to the next gig. I wish I knew when that was gonna be! :-)

Hopefully soon! Love your playing!

[OB Dave]

This topic comes up from time to time. The solution for creating the samples is pretty straightforward - mic the piano in M-S, and not only will it sum to mono cleanly, you can dial in any stereo image 'width' you like. I am surprised more manufacturers don"t do this.

[Doerfler]

Overall, I wish keyboards had more dedicated mono piano patches.

 

Yamaha CP4 has excellent mono acoustic piano patches, Quite a few of them, actually

[Moonglow]

Overall, I wish keyboards had more dedicated mono piano patches.

 

Yamaha CP4 has excellent mono acoustic piano patches, Quite a few of them, actually

That is awesome. Nice corrective measure from the CP-5, which IIRC, had poor mono performance. Good to know some manufacturers are listening to their customers.

 

The Kronos has only one dedicated mono patch (an older OASYS piano, at that) out of around 2,000 programs. Same situation for my Jupiter-80, although I find the JP-80 (Supernatural) pianos more nicely sum to mono than the K.

 

I do understand that stereo pianos sound better on the showroom floor...

[JimboKeys]

Interesting discussion.

 

I've always assumed when running stereo (solo setup with speakers behind me 6 ft apart, no FOH) that even for someone at the back of the room who hears no distinction between what they perceive to be left vs right, that there is still a spaciousness to the sound that would be lost if the keyboard were in mono. And related to that, the assumption that phasing issues are only a problem if the L and R signals are mixed before going to the speakers, so that running them to separate speakers will will eliminate any phasing issues. Maybe the only way to verify these assumptions would be to have someone in the back of the room try to tell the difference between sending stereo to the speakers vs. sending the same mono mix to each speaker.

 

Related to that, i also have always assumed that even a mono sound coming from two slightly separated speakers will sound more spacious than sound coming from a single point (e.g. if you were to install the same drivers from that pair of speakers into single cabinet).

 

Thoughts ?