The ultimate single-board gig rig: 2 contrasting manuals

[stoken6]

Gear is overrated.

Has your SKX arrived yet Ed?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[RandyFF]

@RandyFF I think a two-part design would add a lot of value (like the Hammond XLK5 and the Mojo lower 61). I do think it's a shame that the guys who make "satisfactory" (we all have different tastes) lightweight hammer actions - Casio, Yamaha, Kawai - don't make 73/76 note options, with the exception of the Yamaha P121.

 

Cheers, Mike.

I'm sure Kawai would custom make the length required. They could be known as an alternative to Fatar, and could supply inexpensive weighted action keybeds (ES110) as well as higher end (like used for the Nord Grand). This would boost their prestige for making superb keybeds.

[AnotherScott]

I believe the technology is already there in plastic moulding to keep it lightweight and reasonably compact.

A problem with large plastic enclosures is that the initial fabrication costs are quite high. A risky investment unless you have a high confidence in being able to sell many thousands of them at a decent pace.

 

Korg Kronos 88 is 24.1kg

Roland RD2000 is 21.7kg

Kurzweil PC3A8 is 24.5kg

Yamaha Motif XF8 and Montage 8 are 29kg!

...though keep in mind that many gigging musicians don't consider these boards specifically because they find them too heavy! And, anecdotally from this board, that seems to become more of an issue as so many of us are getting older, and so much very capable new gear is getting lighter.

 

I feel I get pretty close to the ideal with the YC61 over a P121. And there's many other keyboard combinations that would get just as close. They key point, from an ergonomic standpoint, is to get the boards as close as possible, which entails blocking the controls on the lower board, which in turns means you're either triggering sounds on the upper board from lower, or connecting the lower to a module or software.

...or (as you did with your P121) selecting a lower board that requires very little panel depth of its own, like a Casio PX5S, Korg SV2 or D1, Dexibell S1, Kawai ES110, Numa Compact, etc. All need minimal panel depth, though some more minimal than others. Sometimes they may need a little more access space at the left edge, but there's still room to put a 61 over at very close depth without blocking access to the critical left-edge controls.

 

What I'd like is a simple, weighted keybed action to stack the NS3C on top of in a dual manual configuration. Most of the options I look at have knobs and sliders where you'd stack the NS3C, or they weigh a ton. A simple, light and weighted slab with minimal controls that don't get in the way would be perfect for me.

With the right stand (see next paragraph) some of those mentioned in the previous paragraph could work. Also, if you are open to used models, there are plenty to choose from that still had MIDI ports. Casio PX-x00, PX-x10, PX-x20, PX-330, Yamaha P-35, P-95, P-85 come to mind.

 

Lots of existing weighted action boards will work, you just need to find a way to support the back end of the upper board.

...which is the appeal of the old Invisible stands, and the K&M 18880 with the 18881 stacker flipped backwards. There are still issues that heights of various boards line up well on these stands, and others don't, though both stands can be modified to some extent. Having the right stand is arguably better than building a bottom board that has enough free depth to stack a board directly. I do see the appeal of the latter, but what that will add to the travel weight of the bottom board compared to basically no increase in travel weight for a properly designed stand swings my vote in that direction. Though if a board must be deep anyway (to accomodate a certain action or whatever), sure, it would be good to design it with an eye toward using that space to support a second board. I guess the Korg Grandstage does that to some extent.

 

Tangentially, I also like off-center control panels. Some models get that right, like the Vox Continental... leave all the free space consolidated on one side so you have a place for an iPad or other module. It's irritating when a large panel is centered to split up the space so there's unnecessarily not enough space for anything else anywhere.

 

That's an interesting take. I think I've always conceived of two-board solutions from the POV that the lower, hammer-action board is the main element with most of the audio and control duties, and the upper synth board an add-on for playing right hand synth and organ parts (probably because I'm basically a piano player). Maybe the opposite is better ergonomically, as you say: a really comprehensive 61-note unweighted workstation, with an 88-note controller underneath it just for triggering the piano and EP sounds it contains.

Yeah, more often it is my top board that has been the more capable, both for keeping actions close, and because I'm always concerned about travel weight, and there's generally been a wider range of light top/non-hammer boards with tons of features than light bottom/hammer boards with tons of features. But this has varied. Sometimes you get both. A MODX7 over a PX5S provides two capable boards that can stack close where, if you were so inclined, either could easily be configured to play sounds from the other.

 

What I find curious about this stuff is that pure MIDI controllers don't seem to weigh any less than full-on audio workstations of similar size and keyboard spec. That Kawaii for example is the same weight as a Montage 8 or the biggest of the Fantoms - the very heaviest 88-note workstations you can buy. The doepfer is exactly the same weight as a Kronos 88, the most advanced and comprehensive workstation you can buy. The Oberheim MC2000 MIDI controller that I use weighs the same (24kg).

 

It's like once you've accounted for the case and the action, all the electronics in a workstation or performance keyboard - the parts that make sound - are made of air and don't actually add any further weight (???)

Actions vary tremendously in how much they weigh, so your comparison is only valid for boards that use the same action. The action in that Kawais is presumably physically heavier than the action in the Montage or Fantom (maybe in part from longer keys for a better pivot point, for example). Same for the Doepfer vs the Kronos. For a like-to-like comparison, the Korg D1, SV2-88, and Kronos 88 actions are the same (well, except for the addition of aftertouch in the Kronos), so you can get an idea of the relative weight of all their other components, but even that isn't just sound generation, but also control surfaces/displays and their related electronics, different size and/or material of chassis, internal vs. external power supply, etc.. But yes, sound generating electronics are not necessarily heavy themselves. Which brings me to...

 

I found the same thing researching Hammond clones. The GSI DMC-122, which as far as I can tell is the only pure MIDI controller in Hammond-form factor on the market, weighs 18kg. The Mojo, made by the same company, with the same number of manuals and drawbars, but with its own comprehensive internal audio engine, weighs 17kg! How does that work?

The entire Gemini module in its own chassis (with its own display, connectors, etc.) is only about 3 lbs, and that's got all the sounds of the Mojo models then some. So that explains why they would be close, but yeah, it's surprising that the DMC would actually be heavier. Possibilities that could contribute... Slightly heavier keys/springs? (They wouldn't have to be heavier by much for 122 of them to add something on the scale.) The aftertouch sensors? Pitch/mod wheels with their associated circuit board and wiring?

[AnotherScott]

I do think it's a shame that the guys who make "satisfactory" (we all have different tastes) lightweight hammer actions - Casio, Yamaha, Kawai - don't make 73/76 note options, with the exception of the Yamaha P121.

and Yamaha CP73.

 

But sometimes boards can be modified, too. Nord has made 73 key boards where they were manufactured as 76 and just had end bits removed. If you had some of the earlier 73 models of Electro/Stage, you could open them up and attach more keys because the electronics were still there. In fact, I turned my Hammond SK1-73 into a 74 and gave it a low E! They had done the same trick Nord had done. The issue was apparently that Fatar was not manufacturing the correct shaped end keys to include an aesthetically pleasing low E or high G. My added low E has a hole where the Eb would go. The end block could have been shaped to fit, if one wanted to invest the labor.

[RandyFF]

Another possibility:

 

Someone comes up with EXACTLY how to configure a 2 tier stand. Easy to follow instructions, or which stand to buy and how to set it up with a number of 2 board combos.

 

OR, someone could sell their hardware modifications to existing stands, so cost would conceivably be under $200, and a list of the boards that this configuration would work with.

 

This could work!

[CEB]

Gear is overrated.

Has your SKX arrived yet Ed?

 

Cheers, Mike.

No it"s back ordered. Rehearsals are in permanent space so I don"t have to worry about moving the organ. I think Sweetwater told me a week. I"m in no hurry sort of. If it"s here before Wednesday that would be great though. I really don"t want to carry that big bas**** down those stairs.

[confidence]

@RandyFF I think a two-part design would add a lot of value (like the Hammond XLK5 and the Mojo lower 61). I do think it's a shame that the guys who make "satisfactory" (we all have different tastes) lightweight hammer actions - Casio, Yamaha, Kawai - don't make 73/76 note options, with the exception of the Yamaha P121.

 

and the Yamaha CP73?

[stoken6]

and the Yamaha CP73?

and Yamaha CP73.

Yeah I guess you got me on that one. Although the CP73's 29lb is quite a step up from the 22lb P121.

 

I kind of love the idea of the CP73, but as we've discussed on this thread, to get both boards really close involves having a minimal control surface on your lower board, and all the knobby goodness upstairs. P121 does that, CP73 doesn't.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stoken6]

Has your SKX arrived yet Ed?

No it"s back ordered.

 

Report your thoughts when it arrives, please!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Pigmeat]

I would like a keyboard controller that can 'transform' between keyboard actions at the push of a button. It would be neat if a simulated clavinet keyboard action had the feel of the strings vibrating underneath, for example.

[CowboyNQ]

...anyone who currently lugs an 88-key board would lose nothing (apart from a few notes in the extremes of range that we never use) by lugging this, and in fact would gain by not having to lug a separate unweighted board in its own case.

 

I understand this argument but disagree. IMO it"s actually easier to carry, store and transport two 'normal' sized 'boards than one big guy. Therefore I"m investing (giving up) my 88 keys for a return of one giant keyboard in a giant road/flight case instead of two.

 

As I tried to show with the numbers before, I don't think your assumption that the resulting single board will be such a behemoth is justified. Remember that we're cutting the hammer-action board from 88 notes to 73. That in itself will save weight, and the reduced horizontal casing will also save weight. And then remember that a 61-note unweighted keyboard actually weighs very little. There will only be one set of panel controls, and one set of input/output connectors on the back. My contention is that the final dual manual 73+61 would be hardly any heavier, if at all, than your current 88.

 

I do understand your argument but we"ll have to agree to disagree here. As noted above I"m also considering a large road/flight case to transport our hypothetical Frankenstein"s monster, and the challenges of storing, moving and packing it. But you"re right it is just an assumption. I"ll be excited to be wrong - as previously stated I find the concept interesting.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

What I'd like to see from the manufacturers is a lower-tier controller, 7x notes, designed to rest a top-tier board directly on it. (Deep, flat top panel without controls).

 

 

 

Yep something like in my avatar perhaps? Hee hee

 

My Prophet 5 sitting literally straight on top of my Korg Lamda. But the korg was only a 48 note string synth believe it or not. A 48 noter with a flat full wooden top for adding synths above.

 

A time when manufacturers considered the real estate on top as perfect place for adding a synth. Probably not a large P5 but it did fit.

 

Please excuse my appearance at that time but i was struggling to afford food at the time. hee hee.

 

Anyway there are very few keyboards now that offer that realestate.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Here's something maybe we can all agree on: just bring back the days when every club would provide a B3.

 

(But what if you need it to control a VST? :wink:)

[Al Quinn]

The ultimate single-board gig rig would have one keybed (with seventy something keys) that switches between unweighted and weighted actions depending on the selected patch and weighs less than 30 lbs.

 

A dual manual keyboard would have to have a weighted and an unweighted keyboard and weigh less than 30 lbs to be useful for me. Dual manual keyboards are cumbersome to move because of their shape. The shape makes them feel heavier than they actually are. I have a dual manual mojo and a CP4. They weigh about the same amount. But, the CP4 is so much easier to move, pack, put-on the keyboard stand, etc. simply because it's an easier form-factor to handle.

[confidence]

A dual manual keyboard would have to have a weighted and an unweighted keyboard and weigh less than 30 lbs to be useful for me.

 

I'm not aware of even any SINGLE manual hammer action keyboards that weigh under 30 lbs. Are you saying none of those are useful to you?

 

In which case, you're obviously not the target market for this. The hope (and debate) is that it might be able to come in about the same, or not too much heavier, than a single manual 88-note board. I don't think anyone's suggested it's going to be lighter.

[AnotherScott]

I'm not aware of even any SINGLE manual hammer action keyboards that weigh under 30 lbs.

I'd say there are tons of them, but at less than 30 lbs each, you'd be hard pressed to get to a ton.

 

Casio PX-5S, PX-3, I think every CDP model ever made (there have been at least 4 or 5 of them), and almost every Privia model ever made (there have been at least a dozen sub-30 lb models)

Kawai ES110, ES100

Korg Kross/Kross 2 88, B2, SP170, XE20

Kurzweil SP1, SP6, PC4, KA90

Numa Nano, Stage

Roland FP10, RD88

Yamaha MX88 and at least a half-dozen P-series models

 

Those are just the 88s that come to mind. There are even more if you count 7x-key boards like Yamaha P-121 and CP73, Dexibell P3 and S3, and every Nord HP model ever made (at least a half dozen of those).

[stoken6]

I'm not aware of even any SINGLE manual hammer action keyboards that weigh under 30 lbs.

I was about to compose a reply, but thought... nah, Scott's got this.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

LOL

[confidence]

I'm not aware of even any SINGLE manual hammer action keyboards that weigh under 30 lbs.

I'd say there are tons of them, but at less than 30 lbs each, you'd be hard pressed to get to a ton.

 

Casio PX-5S, PX-3, I think every CDP model ever made (there have been at least 4 or 5 of them), and almost every Privia model ever made (there have been at least a dozen sub-30 lb models)

Kawai ES110, ES100

Korg Kross/Kross 2 88, B2, SP170, XE20

Kurzweil SP1, SP6, PC4, KA90

Numa Nano, Stage

Roland FP10, RD88

Yamaha MX88 and at least a half-dozen P-series models

 

Those are just the 88s that come to mind. There are even more if you count 7x-key boards like Yamaha P-121 and CP73, Dexibell P3 and S3, and every Nord HP model ever made (at least a half dozen of those).

 

Yeeerp.

 

That's the most comprehensive way that I've been told "you're wrong" in a long time.

[AnotherScott]

LOL... and since then I've also remembered some soundless controllers, like the ones from Native Instruments and Studiologic. But yeah, since low weight has long been my focus, I'm pretty aware of what the light boards have been. ;-)

[miden]

maybe the next post will be with a little less "confidence"

[confidence]

I don't get it, personally.

 

Like many here, I'm getting on a bit. But my keyboard controller (Oberheim MC2000) weighs 53 lb and when I gig, I stick it in a strong Gator ABS plastic case with wheels, in the back of the car along with amp, rack etc. and get on with it. If there's someone at the other end to help carry it good, if not I can manage short distances myself.

 

The flipside of this is that it's built like a tank, out of solid metal, and nothing has ever broken on or in it in nearly twenty years' service.

 

Would I like a lighter board, if it could do everything I need and be equally reliable? Well yeah, sure. Is it a priority? Not really. As a keyboard player getting to and from gigs, setting up etc. is always going to be a hassle anyway. I've got the rest of my rig as practical as possible (amp, stand and rack). One trip from the car stretches my arm a bit. Probably makes it easier to reach the high notes.

 

So I'm surprised by much of the reaction to this thread which seems to be along the lines of "making keyboards as feather-light as humanly possible is the MAIN/ONLY priority I care about, far more important than what sounds they make, how hard they are to program or the ergonomics of playing them. So the fact that your dual weighted-unweighted controller might not hold us back too much in that quest is not enough - it's unlikely to take us forward, and therefore I'm not interested."

 

I guess for me there are just other things that are more important. But there you go, everyone has their thing.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Confidence i too have an Oberheim MC2000 but its been packed away since an interstate move. I keep threatening to pull it out of its box but due to my health limitations i havent wanted to address that weight till i found its final destination in which room i decided its wanted.

 

I just moved my MP9500 and without someone to help next time its staying put. Thats probably why i dont need the oberheim out as the MP is nice. But there is something appealing about the Oberheim. It even looks like a controller should. Shes a pretty one the MC2000 Jim lad.

 

You definately need a lighter gigging board than the Oberheim if you are not spritely. Especially in its roadcase thats a lot of weight when youll ber surprised how good the lightweight boards feel.

 

 

For example i use a Casio Privia PX330 to gig with its only 11.4kg which is super light for a hammer action 88, feels good and thats coming from someone with a yamaha G1 grand piano at home. Theres some things i dont ( like all boards once you own them awhile) but overall a great board. And a good feeling keybed.

 

So there are heaps of good feeling lightweight boards now.

 

.. but ironically my health limitation is so dificult i am thinking of replacing the Privia with a lighter still Studio Logic Compact 2x a semi weighted 88 at around 7 kg i think. I also like that its got drawbars and aftertouch. But i cant try one out till the current crisis dissipates.

 

But i will admit im not sure if i will like going back to semi weighted. An action which i havent gigged with since the 90s i think. I have a bunch of semi weighted boards here that i never play because i have weighted boards.

 

I am always on the look out for the lightest thing. Always.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

PS: confidence i realised you must be using a sound module or similar for your sounds unless you have the Dreamblaster board in the Oberheim. I doubt youd use that.

 

Therefore you can keep using your rack but with a lighter keyboard. You wont sacrifice your sound.

 

Therefore as your Obby has master controll functions youd need a lightweight board with such functions so id recommend looking at a Casio PX5s which is a 4 zone master controller keyboard with the added advantage of great inbuilt sounds. You get the best of both worlds. Its in the 11kgs weight range too. Very competant controller and you might love the sounds if not use your rack.

 

I had always wanted this board because of its master functions but the Privia was so good i didnt want to ditch it when the PX5s came out so i waited and now have decided to try the compact 2x instead for its even lighter 7kg weight.

 

 

You don't have to sacrifice your sounds to get a lighter keyboard. Continue using your rack but with a keyboard half the weight and even less in its lightweight bag compared to your case. Yes the casio bag is very robust in a car trip / non roady situation.

 

Anyway i applaude your choice of board infact love it but i couldnt shlep it even if i had normal lungs so I offer the above info as just that ..INFO...not as a knock on the Obby.

 

.Edit: oh bugger i forgot this long thread was about dual manuals. Ok ok "confidence" i still believe a 76 note Compact 2x semi weighted keybed on bottom with a 61 note synth/organ action on top (light as that on a 4kg korg kross)integrared together could be possible around 12kg all up.

 

Whether a privia hammer action type lower could be done at that weight may or maynot be possible but definately a semi weighted action.

 

Use the Compacts synth engine with drawbars and aftertouch on bottom. That weight already included in board.

 

But i do get what others say that the bulkiness outweighs the weight saving. Bulky being harder to shlep even when lightweight.

[niacin]

I went the double manual clonewheel (SK2) plus a rack (most sounds from a Roland Integra 7) for a long time. You get the bonus of a quick and easy set up because the leads, midi cables and power cords are ready to roll out of the rack case and plug and play. I'd never use a hard case for the SK2 unless I was flying, so I have a Gator bag and it's quite manageable. If Nord did a Stage Compact with 2 manuals I'd be interested, but with weighted keys on the lower manual some folks would obviously baulk at the weight.

[psionic11]

My preferred portable yet do-it-all solution is this:

 

Kronos 61 (31 lbs)

Privia PX-5S (24 lbs)

 

It takes just as much effort to set up a 2-tier stand as a single tier stand.

 

Quick setup, comprehensive engines, both semi-weighted and hammer action. Win-win-win.

[confidence]

AUSSIEKEYS -

 

I'm not gigging much at the moment so there's no urgency, but I am looking at replacing the Oberheim+rack. Not because of the weight, but because of setup and programming hassle and desire to replace its "in between" action with a proper piano hammer action + proper organ action.

 

My current aim is a hammer action with high quality internal sounds that can cover small scale gigs, jam sessions etc, with a view that I can do those without having to take a second board. And a dedicated Hammond clone primarily for my own enjoyment, but that I can also take out and use, both as a Hammond and as a light-action MIDI controller playing the other board. And ditch the rack.

 

I've been looking at 73-note boards partly to reduce weight and bulk when carrying both, and partly because a second keyboard will reduce demands upon multi-zone layout on the first for complex arrangements. I quite like the look of the Korg Grandstage 73. It only has two zones though and I think I'd miss the MIDI capabilities of the Oberheim. Will definitely check out that Casio, but build quality is important to me (also something I might miss about the Oberheim) and I also quite like the idea of reducing length, partly because of how it will fit in my studio. So I currently prefer the idea of getting whatever 73-note hammer action board is best for my needs and not worrying about weight (with the assumption that it will be lighter than the Oberheim anyway) rather than getting another 88 and having to make weight a consideration. Problem is there aren't a lot of 73-note hammer action boards. If I don't go Grandstage I might consider a Kurzweil Forte, where the 76-note is hammer action, though they're expensive.

 

The Oberheims don't fetch much used any more so I can always keep it too for if occasions come up when I'll want it, instead of selling it.

 

I totally get that in your situation with serious health issues, weight is more of a priority.

[confidence]

I went the double manual clonewheel (SK2) plus a rack (most sounds from a Roland Integra 7) for a long time. You get the bonus of a quick and easy set up because the leads, midi cables and power cords are ready to roll out of the rack case and plug and play. I'd never use a hard case for the SK2 unless I was flying, so I have a Gator bag and it's quite manageable. If Nord did a Stage Compact with 2 manuals I'd be interested, but with weighted keys on the lower manual some folks would obviously baulk at the weight.

 

Does the SK2 have enough weight for playing piano & EP parts, though?

[niacin]

I went the double manual clonewheel (SK2) plus a rack (most sounds from a Roland Integra 7) for a long time. You get the bonus of a quick and easy set up because the leads, midi cables and power cords are ready to roll out of the rack case and plug and play. I'd never use a hard case for the SK2 unless I was flying, so I have a Gator bag and it's quite manageable. If Nord did a Stage Compact with 2 manuals I'd be interested, but with weighted keys on the lower manual some folks would obviously baulk at the weight.

 

Does the SK2 have enough weight for playing piano & EP parts, though?

 

I wouldn't want to play a solo piano gig on that action, or a jazz trio for that matter, because the dynamic control isn't wonderful, but for pop or blues or rnb I'm used to it. It's absolutely fine for Wurly EP, maybe not so good for rhodes if you're playing jazz.

[AnotherScott]

My preferred portable yet do-it-all solution is this:

 

Kronos 61 (31 lbs)

Privia PX-5S (24 lbs)

That's s a super-capable combination, with nice actions for both tiers. I happen to prefer the MODX7 which knocks off 15 lbs and gives me 76 keys up top, but the Kronos does have a whole lot of advantages of its own. I was going to say more about this, but instead of derailing this thread, I'll move those comments back over to the "Super light 2-board rigs" thread.

 

It takes just as much effort to set up a 2-tier stand as a single tier stand.

Yes, there are numerous two-tier stands which move as one (i.e. where the 2nd-tier component stays permanently attached and automatically in place with the rest), making them no more time-consuming to set up than a single tier version would be.

 

I quite like the look of the Korg Grandstage 73. It only has two zones though and I think I'd miss the MIDI capabilities of the Oberheim...Problem is there aren't a lot of 73-note hammer action boards. If I don't go Grandstage I might consider a Kurzweil Forte, where the 76-note is hammer action, though they're expensive.

Besides the Grandstage and Forte, other 7x hammer action boards with at least two MIDI zones include Yamaha CP73, Dexibell S3, Korg Kronos 73, Nord Stage 3 HP76. The first two are priced in Grandstage territory, the latter two in Forte. All are about Grandstage width, except for the Kronos with its controls on the left, which is noticeably wider. Most are much lighter than the Grandstage, they weigh between 22 and 29 lbs, except for the 46+ lb Kronos. All have more MIDI capability than the Grandstage. (Though be aware that the number of external MIDI zones and number of internal sound split regions the board has are not always identical.) If your Hammond clone will be behind/above it, the Grandstage has the virtue of letting you keep the actions closer to each other than the other options. Since the PX5S is not totally out of consideration despite its 88 keys, that's another one where you could keep an organ above quite close. It is 9" wider than the Grandstage, though.