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Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! #3011380 10/07/19 05:22 PM
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Anderton Online Content OP
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Just in case you haven't seen the mass emails sent out from various companies, iZotope, Presonus, Native Instruments, Audient, Serato. et al, don't upgrade to Catalina until you get an "all clear" signal that applications, plug-ins, and drivers have been updated. A lot of this is due to the excising of any vestiges of 32-bit code. More info:

https://www.musictech.net/news/gear/apple-macos-catalina-upgrade-remove-32-bit/
https://cdm.link/2019/09/macos-cata...-your-music-software-heres-what-to-know/

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3011414 10/07/19 09:21 PM
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There are some cool apps that will tell you what apps you have still have 32-bit code and won't work. Here's my favorite.

I'm 90% sure (not 100% - yet) that the "Automatically Update" switch in the Software Update System Pref will not upgrade you to Catalina. You have to click to specifically do that.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Joe Muscara] #3011418 10/07/19 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bone Muskeleton
There are some cool apps that will tell you what apps you have still have 32-bit code and won't work. Here's my favorite.

I'm 90% sure (not 100% - yet) that the "Automatically Update" switch in the Software Update System Pref will not upgrade you to Catalina. You have to click to specifically do that.


Thanks for the link!!! I've got 79 apps with 32 bit code in them and 346 that are fully 64 bit.
Oddly, some of the un-installer programs are/have 32 bit code but the plugins they uninstall are 64 bit.

I'll just stay right here for now, running High Sierra. Some of these will just go away, Painter 2016 barely got used so I won't be upgrading.
I'm migrated from MOTU to Presonus for my interface so I don't need their software anymore. Quite a few of them are drivers for printers I don't have and never will.

IK Multimedia Custom Shop and Authorization Manager are both 32 bit, Izotope Product Portal is 32 bit, Adobe Application Manager and other Adobe stuffs is 32 bit, Native Instruments Service Center is 32 bits.

And quite a list of Apple goodies that are 32 bits. I think it is fairly safe to assume the Apple stuff will take care of itself.
Some apps are easily discarded and won't be missed. Others are pretty "iffy" at the moment, especially the recording software and Adobe.

I was not able to print to .pdf or copy and paste the list of 32 bit apps. I tried to drag the list to another program, no love there either. Reveal in Finder is a massive spew of windows showing one app each for the most part.

Switching to All Executables and Rescanning shows 549 32 bit files and 2,881 64 bit files.

This could become a nasty mess!!!!

Would be nice to have a way to isolate all 32 bit files but I don't expect that to become available.

I'll start with MOTU and the printers etc. I won't miss any of them anyway.

Just found this, have not tried it yet. Looks good so far: https://uninstallmacapp.com/motu-universal-audio-install-removal.html

Last edited by KuruPrionz; 10/07/19 09:59 PM. Reason: Added information

There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3011442 10/08/19 01:37 AM
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It's Mac-using DJs who are really screwed until their applications are updated. iTunes was the de factor way for DJs to organize music, and export XML playlists to use in various programs.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/...e-breaks-xml-file-support-removal-update

"Additionally, according to Apple a previously reported fix saying users can manually export XML files in the Music app is incorrect. Essentially, if you’re a DJ and you have put tons of time into sorting music in your iTunes playlists for whatever software you use, upgrading to Catalina will likely erase all your hard work."

On the bright side for NI, anyone using a Mac with Catalina is going to have to upgrade to the latest version of Traktor smile Might be a nice income stream for people on earlier versions and who aren't eligible for a free upgrade.

And frankly...why should the upgrade cost be borne by NI? They're not the ones who decided to get rid of iTunes and eliminate XML export.

Last edited by Anderton; 10/08/19 01:50 AM.
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3011446 10/08/19 02:41 AM
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The Nord app for downloading new sounds to their keyboard products is among the apps that are not yet 64-bit, and thus are not yet ready for Catalina. The topic has been discussed extensively in the Nord User Forum:
https://www.norduserforum.com/gener...-t-support-sound-manager-t17850-100.html

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: KuruPrionz] #3011450 10/08/19 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
[
Just found this, have not tried it yet. Looks good so far: https://uninstallmacapp.com/motu-universal-audio-install-removal.html


Turns out to be what I call "sneakware". Downloaded, installed, started it up.
I chose a MOTU program. It showed what the files were that it could delete but demanded to be registered prior to the deletion.
They want $30.

Fair enough but I have a list of all 32 bit programs. I can just hunt them down myself.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3011503 10/08/19 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
It's Mac-using DJs who are really screwed until their applications are updated. iTunes was the de factor way for DJs to organize music, and export XML playlists to use in various programs.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/...e-breaks-xml-file-support-removal-update

Similarly, I just found out today that Music doesn't seem to support multiple libraries like iTunes did. I use an app called PowerTunes that managed them for me. I kept one library with my main stuff, but I have separate libraries for tunes I don't want shared to iCloud such as my collection of concert recordings. If Music never supports separate libraries, I don't know what I will do. frown


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3011665 10/09/19 05:42 PM
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Apparently nothing from Ableton or NI works with Catalina. Funny, I used my MacBook Pro for DJ gigs because I figured that because my library was in iTunes, it would work better in its native environment than with a Windows laptop...

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3011846 10/10/19 06:16 PM
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Well, the article I read must have been wrong, because Ableton Live 10 is compatible with Catalina, but no other version of Live is. Of course, that doesn't guarantee your plug-ins or drivers will be compatible. Sweetwater has done a great job of identifying what does and doesn't work in this article.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013362 10/22/19 09:38 PM
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I'm having a related problem with iPad apps and it demonstrates the main issue with not having OS install disk that you can rely on. Several programs for my iPad no longer work because they have not been updated for the newer OS. And Apple does not allow you to roll back the OS. You can sometimes pry the latest version off and go back one number but that does not help me use some great programs that are no longer supported. I cringe every time I see the "Developer needs to update the program for it to work on the new OS" message. When the developer is out of business what do you do? These are still great programs that I paid good money for. Normally I give my old iPads to family members. I wish I had kept a few and froze them from updates.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: RABid] #3013369 10/22/19 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RABid
I cringe every time I see the "Developer needs to update the program for it to work on the new OS" message. When the developer is out of business what do you do?


Welcome to another of the Great Lies: "It's in software so it'll never go out of date."

I'm an Android user, and there isn't much, if any, curation of the available apps. I had a great SPL meter that worked great under Android 4, but wouldn't run under any newer OS version. Recording apps are really spotty (good thing I have a TASCAM handheld recorder). And, unlike Apple, where there's one source for OS updates/upgrades, Android upgrades are at the discretion of the manufacturer of the device it's running on. The Samsung version is different from the Motorola version, or different from the ZTE or Blu or Huawei version - they're all based around the Google-released core, but different manufacturers' versions have different features and quirks.

And there's nothing like opening an app that's been working ever since you had it, and maybe on a previous phone, and have a notice pop up saying "You need to update this app in order to use it" because the host system it works with has changed. Very annoying, particularly if you're opening an app that you need to use quickly (like to get a good seat on a Southwest Airlines flight by checking in within seconds of 24 hours of your flight time).

Life's not the same now that software is everywhere.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013469 10/23/19 04:59 PM
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Have you heard the latest thievery fad? E-skimmers can hover over shopping carts when you buy stuff online, and take whatever information you provide in order to make the purchase. Of course, the e-commerce software will be updated at some point to fix the vulnerability, but then hackers will just find another vulnerability.

The whole online thing is becoming a house of cards. I've often speculated on what would happen if there was an X-Class solar flare that brought down the grid, but we probably don't need that...just an upset third-world dictator with a bunch of smart hackers. It's not probably, but possible that a group of dedicated hackers could bring down the banking system.

The irony is that you need to go online to your bank to check and make sure that no one has drained your account, but going online to your bank increases the odds of being hacked. Argh.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: KuruPrionz] #3013484 10/23/19 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
[
Just found this, have not tried it yet. Looks good so far: https://uninstallmacapp.com/motu-universal-audio-install-removal.html


Turns out to be what I call "sneakware". Downloaded, installed, started it up.
I chose a MOTU program. It showed what the files were that it could delete but demanded to be registered prior to the deletion.
They want $30.

Fair enough but I have a list of all 32 bit programs. I can just hunt them down myself.


Just open System Information, select "Report", then click "Applications". It will display a list of every application on your Mac, listed as either 32-bit or 64-bit.


Yamaha: Motif XF8/YS200/CVP-305/CLP-130/YPG-235/PSR-295/PSS-470
Korg: Krome 61
Roland: JV-1000
Casio: CT-370
Kimball Valencia/Broadway/Conn 465 w/144 spkrs/WCOC Reed Organ/Titano Virtuoso Converter
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Mighty Motif Max] #3013496 10/23/19 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
[
Just found this, have not tried it yet. Looks good so far: https://uninstallmacapp.com/motu-universal-audio-install-removal.html


Turns out to be what I call "sneakware". Downloaded, installed, started it up.
I chose a MOTU program. It showed what the files were that it could delete but demanded to be registered prior to the deletion.
They want $30.

Fair enough but I have a list of all 32 bit programs. I can just hunt them down myself.


Just open System Information, select "Report", then click "Applications". It will display a list of every application on your Mac, listed as either 32-bit or 64-bit.


From what I can see, I have to click on each individual app to find out. Go64 popped up a list with all apps and 64 or 32 bit listed in a fraction of the time and it is free.
So, i'm good. But thanks for the tip, it is certainly one way to do it. I'm just going to stay here on High Sierra for now.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013498 10/23/19 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
possible that a group of dedicated hackers could bring down the banking system.


without getting political, know with certainty that there are entire buildings full of people working all day every day paid by their governments to do just this


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: KuruPrionz] #3013504 10/23/19 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by davedoerfler
Just open System Information, select "Report", then click "Applications". It will display a list of every application on your Mac, listed as either 32-bit or 64-bit.


Are you sure it's that simple - the only variant is 32- or 64-bit? There were a bunch of "don't upgrade to High Sierra" when it first came out, and that had nothing to do with 32- or 64-bit code. Maybe there are some other elements that could cause incompatibilities? I don't know...

I did get a notice that GarageBand won't work in future Mac OS versions, so I need to update. No great loss smile

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013550 10/24/19 03:26 PM
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After losing Logic 9 on one due to OS update I decided to leave my two MBP's alone and hopefully they can live at OS10.13.6 for their duration!

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Greg Mein] #3013560 10/24/19 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by davedoerfler
Just open System Information, select "Report", then click "Applications". It will display a list of every application on your Mac, listed as either 32-bit or 64-bit.


Are you sure it's that simple - the only variant is 32- or 64-bit? There were a bunch of "don't upgrade to High Sierra" when it first came out, and that had nothing to do with 32- or 64-bit code. Maybe there are some other elements that could cause incompatibilities? I don't know...


Well, I found out the answer to my question. From Macworld: "Even if an app you use is 64-bit...that doesn't mean that you won't experience problems with it. You may also experience issues with 64-bit apps if components that they require are not 32-bit. This is the case with some Adobe apps, for example."

Originally Posted by Greg Mein
After losing Logic 9 on one due to OS update I decided to leave my two MBP's alone and hopefully they can live at OS10.13.6 for their duration!


My understanding is that Logic works with Catalina, it's the plug-ins that are the problem. It also sounds like the complexities of accessing libraries (and dealing with permissions) will require plug-ins that access samples and such to require pretty extensive modifications.

What I don't understand is how so many companies were seemingly caught by surprise. Didn't they get beta versions of the OS so they could start working on compatibility at least months ago? And if they did, is it really that much of a massive undertaking that it's going to take months to produce compatible versions of applications?

The other thing I don't understand is that Apple says the reason for ditching 32-bit apps is because they slow down the system. Fair enough. But couldn't there be some kind of wrapper that would translate how the 32-bit program accessed libraries and such to how a 64-bit program would? I was playing with Peavey's ReValver amp sim, which can load VST and AU plug-ins - so if you insert the AAX version of ReValver into Pro Tools, then you can run VST and AU plug-ins in Pro Tools. Maybe that slows things down, and it's probably simpler than wrapping the OS, but I would think that a company with Apple's resources could have come up with a solution similar to how Windows is able to run 32-bit programs with a 64-bit OS. Then again, I have no idea what's under the hood, so maybe it's impossible...just like how at this point, it's impossible to get of that wretched registry in Windows.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013634 10/25/19 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Have you heard the latest thievery fad? E-skimmers can hover over shopping carts when you buy stuff online, and take whatever information you provide in order to make the purchase. Of course, the e-commerce software will be updated at some point to fix the vulnerability, but then hackers will just find another vulnerability.

The whole online thing is becoming a house of cards. I've often speculated on what would happen if there was an X-Class solar flare that brought down the grid, but we probably don't need that...just an upset third-world dictator with a bunch of smart hackers. It's not probably, but possible that a group of dedicated hackers could bring down the banking system.

The irony is that you need to go online to your bank to check and make sure that no one has drained your account, but going online to your bank increases the odds of being hacked. Argh.


On this, one of my favorite authors, John Birmingham has an audio book out called Zero Day Code (it's on Audible) that shows in impressive detail how this could play out.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013643 10/25/19 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
...

What I don't understand is how so many companies were seemingly caught by surprise. Didn't they get beta versions of the OS so they could start working on compatibility at least months ago? And if they did, is it really that much of a massive undertaking that it's going to take months to produce compatible versions of applications?

...


The problem is production schedules and budget. Companies usually operate on a very tight schedule barely making deadlines. Especially software companies. When Apple does something like this they just don't have the manpower to review every product. Not without affecting the release schedule of products they were working on before Apple announces a big change.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: RABid] #3013653 10/25/19 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RABid
Originally Posted by Anderton
...

What I don't understand is how so many companies were seemingly caught by surprise. Didn't they get beta versions of the OS so they could start working on compatibility at least months ago? And if they did, is it really that much of a massive undertaking that it's going to take months to produce compatible versions of applications?

...


The problem is production schedules and budget. Companies usually operate on a very tight schedule barely making deadlines. Especially software companies. When Apple does something like this they just don't have the manpower to review every product. Not without affecting the release schedule of products they were working on before Apple announces a big change.


That's kind of my point. Didn't Apple give them sufficient advance notice? I've heard many, many developers grouse about "Apple changing the goal posts." Is this just not paying attention to what developers need? Or is it to suck people into the Apple ecosystem because of course, Apple always knows what changes are going to happen and can be ready?

Case in point: Logic works, Kontakt doesn't. So if Apple wants to monopolize sample playback players for Logic...

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013674 10/25/19 10:03 AM
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Never thought about it that way. The companies it hurts most are the older, established companies with lots of products like NI. You build a big library of programs over 20 years, all viable, useful and still supported. Then something like this happens and you have a HUGE backlog of programs that have to be edited, recompiled and tested.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013693 10/25/19 03:31 PM
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I was watching the Universal Audio livestream the other day where they announced the new Apollo Twin X and X4 models. During the Tech Talk segments, they talked about Catalina a bit. So far, most of their stuff is working fine, aside from a couple of graphic glitches that can be fixed by relaunching the plugin in question. They have also updated their installer to work in Catalina. Still, they are recommending that people stick with their current macOS because their stuff isn't fully qualified for Catalina yet. (They updated the installer for those who got new Macs and have to use Catalina.) What they described is that they have a very large test matrix their products have to go through before they deem them fully qualified, and it takes lots of time. They have started, but it's not complete.

What that says to me is that they have a very thorough but time-consuming process, and that they couldn't start it until the final release of Catalina was out. I mean, they could, but the betas are a moving goal so it probably wasn't worth their time to do more than check things until the release candidate or so at least.

I have a Catalina install on a volume and when I check the apps I use, I just fire them up, try a few things and see if it seems to work. Usually that's enough but I've been bitten by apps that looked okay initially but then when I tried something real after the upgrade, something didn't work that I hadn't tried. Imagine if UA did that and someone was out there trying to finish a project when the app or plugin barfed. The person would be screaming bloody murder.

I'm not disagreeing with you, Craig. I think there are a lot of these companies that could have been putting some effort into testing their products against the betas and seem to have not even touched them instead. I'm very happy with UA saying, "it looks like stuff works, but stay on Mojave if you can because we're not 100% sure yet." That's an honest answer, not a chicken$#!^ one like some companies seem to be doing.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Joe Muscara] #3013714 10/25/19 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bone Muskeleton

I'm not disagreeing with you, Craig. I think there are a lot of these companies that could have been putting some effort into testing their products against the betas and seem to have not even touched them instead.


Actually my question was more along the lines of whether these companies were even kept in the loop on betas. It seems impossible they wouldn't be, but some developers for iOS apps told me they've often been taken by surprise due to changes that just kind of showed up. Although this was years ago...maybe things have changed.

Re: Don't Upgrade to MacOS Catalina Yet! [Re: Anderton] #3013764 10/25/19 11:29 PM
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The first public betas shipped shortly after WWDC each year (early June), and continued until and after the "final" release in the fall. The developer versions ship a few days before that. So they've had that much time at least. This applies to both iOS and macOS.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!

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