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The magic of haptics #2989515 05/14/19 06:44 AM
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Aidan Offline OP
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I've been meaning to post about this for a few days, but EscapeRocks' comments on his encounter with the Casio PX-S1000 have reminded me to do so.

Since acquiring my own S1000, I find myself returning to play it again and again each day. Not because of the novelty of having a new keyboard around, nor (with the greatest respect to Mike Martin and the team) because it's the most knockout piano sound I've ever encountered. No, I believe it has a LOT to do with the way the inbuilt speakers offer haptic (touch) feedback to your fingers.

I noticed the same effect about a week before I got the Casio. I was called upon to accompany a choir in a church and the place had a Kawai ES7 lying around. Of course, that's a nice piano to begin with, but again, it was that haptic feedback – which gave something close to the impression of playing an acoustic instrument – which appealed to me.

All of which has kind of got me thinking. I was, as you know, pondering acquiring a Kawai MP11SE for studio use. But now I'm wondering whether I would be happier with an ES8, for all that there is obviously a big difference in the action. But on the other hand, it would also be cheaper and more compact, and light enough (relatively speaking) to be occasionally used portable if absolutely needed.

I may add that for the full experience, you do need to pair the piano with an external speaker system. But the combo of my S1000 with just a touch of QSC K10 added is a revelation, I have to say.

I know other forum members have had similar experiences/thoughts over the years. You may wish to add your own to this?


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Re: The magic of haptics [Re: Aidan] #2989517 05/14/19 07:18 AM
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RudyS Offline
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I can really imagine this. I don't know if it's purely haptic, or also has to do with the fact that the sound source is the "same" as the instrument.

For instance I can really notice it in my jazzy band, where I play a melodica which is lying on top of my CP4 (which I amplify with a K10). Whenever I play parts on the piano and melodica simultaneously, I feel really disconnected from the piano, because the sound source is just further away. I really think this has something to do with it as well.


Rudy

Re: The magic of haptics [Re: RudyS] #2989528 05/14/19 09:59 AM
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Aidan Offline OP
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Good point, Rudy. Yes, I'm sure that there is the feel of a 'unified' instrument has something to do with it as well.


Casio PX-S1000 | Yamaha CP4 | Yamaha MODX 8 | Yamaha Tyros 5-76 | Nord Electro 5D-73 | Moog Sub 37
Re: The magic of haptics [Re: Aidan] #2989538 05/14/19 11:05 AM
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I have a Roland FP-50 in the studio where I teach. It’s connected to a pair of PreSonus Eris 3.5 monitors; and normally I mute the FP-50’s built-in speakers. But a couple weeks ago I discovered a similar haptic ‘magic’. I remember Phil Clendeninn, with Yamaha, mentioning that this effect happened to him with a CP300.

Aidan, I think the ES8 just might be the ticket for you, versus the MP11SE.


"Someday, we will look back on these days and laugh. It may be a maniacal laugh from within the confines of our padded cells, but it will be a laugh nonetheless" - Mr. Boffo.







Re: The magic of haptics [Re: Aidan] #2989539 05/14/19 11:09 AM
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Yes, I really like the finger-feeling of having speakers in the keyboard, as I've long posted about as well. At one point, since I wanted my 88 to be able to trigger pianos from a Nord SW above, I was looking specifically for 88s that had Line In (i.e. MIDI Out to trigger the Nord, Line In so I'd then hear/feel the Nord through the 88's speakers). While that's ideal, I also found that, if there were no Line In, I could play the 88s own piano sound through its internal speakers while the Nord played only through external speakers, and it was still good.


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Re: The magic of haptics [Re: AnotherScott] #2989546 05/14/19 12:15 PM
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Great thread, and to add to the thoughts I have about this over in the other thread:

Like Phil with Yamaha, I first encountered this phenomenon when I sat down at a CP300. After having played for years on DP's with no internal amplification, this was a revelation to me.
That's what led me to my first Casio: the PX-350 (my equally infamous Yellow one) smile

Since I use these in a rock band setting, I am always externally amped.

Since it has been years since I've played the PX350 on stage, I had forgotten how connected it made me feel to what I was playing. (as far as the piano tones).

I am looking forward to getting back to that.


David
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Re: The magic of haptics [Re: EscapeRocks] #2989559 05/14/19 02:19 PM
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One of my favorite feelings is the vibration of my Kawai RX-2 through the keys to my hands, through the floor and pedals to my feet, and through the floor and bench to my butt! (That's nothing dirty, just talking about the feedback here.)

I do enjoy when keyboards have that feeling too.


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: The magic of haptics [Re: Joe Muscara] #2989568 05/14/19 02:44 PM
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RudyS Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe Muscara
One of my favorite feelings is the vibration of my Kawai RX-2 through the keys to my hands, through the floor and pedals to my feet, and through the floor and bench to my butt! (That's nothing dirty, just talking about the feedback here.)

I do enjoy when keyboards have that feeling too.


Reminds me of when I played the biggest church organ of this city. Feeling the vibrations when I hit the low c pedal with that 16 feet (open) pipe. Magnificent!


Rudy

Re: The magic of haptics [Re: RudyS] #2989569 05/14/19 02:59 PM
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For me, part of it is haptics and part of it is "perceived width".

What I mean is that sitting in front of a piano is a very "wide" instrument sonically. You always get the aural sense that the instrument is large and formidable...and when you throw a digital into a very directional PA speaker it's what's lost (and perhaps regained a bit with a CPS Space Station...)

This is what "does it" for me with the PX-S1000. It feels (acoustically) like a big wide instrument before me.


"I'm not just untalented. I'm multi untalented."
Re: The magic of haptics [Re: timwat] #2989590 05/14/19 07:09 PM
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Yes, I missed this immediately when I replaced my FP4 with the CP4. I wonder if there might be a “bolt-on” system that would vibrate the keyboard, not necessarily making any sound one could hear.


CP4, ZXA1, CA93, SP-6
Re: The magic of haptics [Re: Coker] #2989682 05/15/19 12:34 PM
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EscapeRocks Offline
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Originally Posted By: Coker
Yes, I missed this immediately when I replaced my FP4 with the CP4. I wonder if there might be a “bolt-on” system that would vibrate the keyboard, not necessarily making any sound one could hear.


Get a pair of Dayton Audio "The Puck" bass shakers. 3.5" diameter

Attach them to bottom of keyboard. Run a line to them.

You'll obviously need to do some custom wiring, but it would be very easy project.

These things are used in home theaters so you feel the bass...just like in a real theater.

Dayton Audio Bass Transducer/Shaker


David
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Re: The magic of haptics [Re: EscapeRocks] #2989686 05/15/19 12:55 PM
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drawback Offline
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What a timely and cool thread. The second time I've learned a term I hadn't heard before (see: melisma).

I had a chance to go in person to the local retailer where they actually had both the P515 and CP88 in stock at the same time. The P515 was hands down the better impression of playing a musical instrument. I have to put that down to "haptics."

Now I'm gassing for the 515. Merde. I've spent too much money on iDevices, MIDI, interfaces, controllers, swearing I've reached my "end of hardware," although while writing this it's struck me that all this stuff I've bought is hardware.

Anyway, yes, haptics makes the hapless happier.


Rod
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Re: The magic of haptics [Re: EscapeRocks] #2989695 05/15/19 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: EscapeRocks
Originally Posted By: Coker
Yes, I missed this immediately when I replaced my FP4 with the CP4. I wonder if there might be a “bolt-on” system that would vibrate the keyboard, not necessarily making any sound one could hear.


Get a pair of Dayton Audio "The Puck" bass shakers. 3.5" diameter

Attach them to bottom of keyboard. Run a line to them.

You'll obviously need to do some custom wiring, but it would be very easy project.

The biggest complication might be that they need an amplifier.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: The magic of haptics [Re: AnotherScott] #2989700 05/15/19 01:56 PM
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What a great new (for me) topic. And, now I have a new word added to my vocabulary; as a Mensa member, I can assure you that I have never heard this word, ever, at a Mensa meeting.

But, then again, they might have all been bass players or drummers? smile

Re: The magic of haptics [Re: EscapeRocks] #2989727 05/15/19 04:23 PM
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Cool - those transducers...

Last edited by Coker; 05/15/19 04:24 PM.

CP4, ZXA1, CA93, SP-6
Re: The magic of haptics [Re: theGman] #2989729 05/15/19 04:24 PM
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zeronyne Offline
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Just to be clear here, you guys are using the term "haptics" in terms of the onboard speakers resonating the case, correct? Casio didn't create an intentional haptic feedback system?

I used to use a Buttshaker attached to a drum throne for just this purpose because I used to have such crappy monitoring when I played out.


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: The magic of haptics [Re: drawback] #2989732 05/15/19 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: drawback
I had a chance to go in person to the local retailer where they actually had both the P515 and CP88 in stock at the same time. The P515 was hands down the better impression of playing a musical instrument. I have to put that down to "haptics."

Now I'm gassing for the 515.


My impression as well. I attribute it to - the P-515 sounded better and played closer to a grand then the CP88. laugh

Haptics - new word for me too. smile

Yes, the P-515 is the only electronic keyboard I'm currently gassing for too.

Re: The magic of haptics [Re: zeronyne] #2989740 05/15/19 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: zeronyne
Just to be clear here, you guys are using the term "haptics" in terms of the onboard speakers resonating the case, correct? Casio didn't create an intentional haptic feedback system?

I used to use a Buttshaker attached to a drum throne for just this purpose because I used to have such crappy monitoring when I played out.


Yes. I only use the Buttshaker with my keyboards when playing "I'll Wait" from the piano tab. It helps with the knife stabs smile


David
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