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#2883278 - 10/04/17 09:07 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GRollins]
dsetto Offline
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Seems they felt their top-end arranger could use the sequencer, instead of their top-end synthesizer. … While I prefer that reversed, I see the rational behind it. And even if I’m not the market for an arranger keyboard, I’m glad they’re continuing with a keyboard sequencer.

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#2883279 - 10/04/17 09:25 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GregC]
burningbusch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Phoney R Wakeman
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Another problem with the workstation vs. arranger article is that it says that workstations are for Composers, and arrangers are for Entertainers/Songwriters.

Songwriters can also be composers, so the article shot itself in the foot a bit there.



As a song writer, and knowing other song writers, I can state that the arranger is definitely not their keyboard . I am sure there are some exceptions, but for the most part I do not agree with the article. Sounds like more marketing hoo-hah. Is it a Yamaha sourced article ?


I think if you're the type of songwriter who writes more skelton songs, e.g. voice with acoustic guitar or piano, then an arranger makes sense. The expectation is other musicians will ultimately come and record all the parts, you've just written the core of the song. If you view songwriting as being responsible for all aspects of the final product, then there are better products and approaches.

Busch.

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#2883282 - 10/04/17 09:56 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: burningbusch]
GRollins Offline
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I had the tab loaded, but just now had time to read it. I, like some of the posters ahead of me, got the impression that even American Musical (or whoever wrote the article for them) are struggling with the differences between workstations and arrangers.

Song writers vs. composers seems to me to be a silly, false dichotomy.

I guess...maybe?...I'm a composer? A composer who writes songs? Wouldn't that make me a...oh, never mind. I'll have to ponder on this some more.

The Genos exists. Clearly, Yamaha thinks they've got a market for it. I imagine that the people who might buy the Genos know--or think they know--the differences between an arranger and a workstation, or else they simply don't care how it's classed. If it sounds good, plays well, and they think it represents good value at its price, then they'll buy one.

Maybe in five or ten years I'll buy their used one when they go for a newer model. Or maybe a Tyros would be fun, since they're now being supplanted by the Genos and presumably going to get cheaper.

Or maybe I'll just sit tight with what I've got and practice enough to become worthy of the instruments I already have on hand. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Grey
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#2883285 - 10/04/17 10:16 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GregC]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Originally Posted By: Phoney R Wakeman
Is it a Yamaha sourced article ?


It's on the American Musical (store) website. See earlier post for link.


Edited by GovernorSilver (10/04/17 10:17 AM)
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#2883288 - 10/04/17 10:37 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GovernorSilver]
GRollins Offline
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It's on AMS's site, true, but it could conceivably have been ghost written by Yamaha for them. I have no opinion--just a possibility.

Grey
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#2883297 - 10/04/17 11:05 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GRollins]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
It's on AMS's site, true, but it could conceivably have been ghost written by Yamaha for them. I have no opinion--just a possibility.

Grey


I guess, though note there's more than one brand on the web page.
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#2883299 - 10/04/17 11:07 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GRollins]
zeronyne Offline
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I will repeat what I always say when these threads pop up lamenting or puzzling over price points. If you cannot understand why a Tyros or Genos is in the $5000+ price range, then you are absolutely not the target market. It's not for OMB/OMG enthusiasts or retired people, although I imagine that most people who would buy this fall into one or both categories.

It's simply priced for people who are willing to pay that much. And I will say that I am surprised that there are not more keyboards that are non-pro focused in that price point. They aren't producing 500,000 of these. Gone are the days of massive overproduction. Supply management and much smarter business analysis have really reduced overstock and bad predictions.

So if you cannot understand why an arranger keyboard costs more than their top of the line pro keyboard, that's OK; you're not supposed to.
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#2883303 - 10/04/17 11:22 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GovernorSilver]
GRollins Offline
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Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: GRollins
It's on AMS's site, true, but it could conceivably have been ghost written by Yamaha for them. I have no opinion--just a possibility.

Grey


I guess, though note there's more than one brand on the web page.


Point taken, sir. I bow to your superior logic.

Grey
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#2883304 - 10/04/17 11:29 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GRollins]
GovernorSilver Offline
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Originally Posted By: GRollins
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: GRollins
It's on AMS's site, true, but it could conceivably have been ghost written by Yamaha for them. I have no opinion--just a possibility.

Grey


I guess, though note there's more than one brand on the web page.


Point taken, sir. I bow to your superior logic.

Grey


Aww, don't be like that - to me these conversations are like when I'm at Markyboard's house with the other KC guys (ProfD, Dan, Dave, etc.), having beers and just chatting.


Edited by GovernorSilver (10/04/17 11:30 AM)
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#2883306 - 10/04/17 11:40 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: zeronyne]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: zeronyne
I will repeat what I always say when these threads pop up lamenting or puzzling over price points. If you cannot understand why a Tyros or Genos is in the $5000+ price range, then you are absolutely not the target market.


Yeah, you're right about that. After speaking with various online sales reps and someone from Yamaha today (amazingly enough), I've been told the Tyros (and now Genos) command a stellar price tag because people are willing to pay it. Great features, astounding sounds, and extra R&D but not $5000+ worth of it.

Oh well. You live and learn.
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#2883315 - 10/04/17 12:40 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Synthoid]
burningbusch Offline
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Take a look at the prices in the home organ market, or what they used to be. People regularly spent $10,000 - $20,000 and more. Ten years later they try to sell them on CL and there's zero market, lucky if they can get a few hundred for them. It's pretty sad.

Busch.

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#2883317 - 10/04/17 12:52 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: burningbusch]
zeronyne Offline
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It's probably worth noting that it's not a good thing or bad thing...it's just simple market forces and a savvy company willing to do the legwork to effectively take advantage of it. You should never tie selling price to cost of materials plus labor and marketing; that should be your checkpoint to make sure you are not shooting yourself in the foot. You should always charge what the market will bear. Dropping prices is always due to some other factor...the need for immediate cash flow, the need to drive a competitor or a product out of a market, or to target a secondary market after the primary market is saturated with your product.
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#2883321 - 10/04/17 01:13 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: burningbusch]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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A lot has changed in the country in 20/30 years. Salaries, value of dollar, cost of living, and we've become dependent on cheap goods manufactured in Asia. There might be a business model that still works for a $20k keyboard but they wouldn't sell many. $5k is definitely up there these days. Heck, I cringed and passed on $5k CP1 and similar $4.5k Stage 3. Will things be different when the kids are grown and out of college, the house is paid for? I'm not sure. There aren't many people that get their contributions matched by anyone anymore or stock options, etc. All that goes in is what I can spare at the end of the month. <shrug> And my rig is a business expense, depreciation, etc.

I knew I should have stayed single and stuck to collecting keyboards. wink
j/k I wouldn't change a thing. But priorities, that's all I'm saying.
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#2883325 - 10/04/17 01:55 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GovernorSilver]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 522
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
Originally Posted By: GRollins
Originally Posted By: GovernorSilver
[quote=GRollins]It's on AMS's site, true, but it could conceivably have been ghost written by Yamaha for them. I have no opinion--just a possibility.

Grey


I guess, though note there's more than one brand on the web page.


Point taken, sir. I bow to your superior logic.

Grey


Aww, don't be like that - to me these conversations are like when I'm at Markyboard's house with the other KC guys (ProfD, Dan, Dave, etc.), having beers and just chatting. [/quote]

No, man, I meant it straight up. I think you're right; AMS probably wrote that in house. I hadn't considered the competing brand aspect. Seems unlikely that Yamaha would write copy to help Korg, et. al.

Now, wouldn't it be something if Yamaha did write that, only to find that AMS was using it to sell other boards as well as their own?

Pissed, they would be!

Grey
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#2883339 - 10/04/17 03:09 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GRollins]
Aidan Offline
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The confusion between workstation and arranger here appears to have been sparked by Yamaha, who are now referring to the Genos as a workstation – a label they never used with Tyros (as far as I know). They applied it to Motif, but dropped the nomenclature from the Montage when they removed the sequencer.

And they took THAT decision because the vast majority of Motif owners were recording onto computer-based DAWs anyway. Maybe a few using them in high-end function bands were running tracks + click on their Motifs but again . . . a minority.

Yamaha is now calling Genos a workstation rather than an arranger because they are trying to refocus sales of that line on a younger demographic – and probably just think that workstation sounds a hipper strap line than arrange.

The potential problem for Yamaha, as I've pointed out elsewhere, is that the younger audience is generally not as cash-rich as its predecessor. And the generation coming after that is used to making music using Ableton Live on a PC using a 200-buck controller with a myriad of flashing lights and pads.

It's a worrying time for the MI manufacturers. Roland's response to this dilemma has been to cut unit costs by largely chasing the cheep and cheerful. It's depressing for us here at KC, but it probably makes good sense economically for them.
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#2883347 - 10/04/17 04:03 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Aidan]
GRollins Offline
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Registered: 09/01/17
Posts: 522
GovernorSilver,
I wanted to make sure you understood that I didn't mean what I said in a yukky way. I'm not given to using smilies; I try to express myself exclusively with words (need to stay in practice in case I ever get back to writing), but sometimes the words go astray.

Aidan,
I could swear that one of the videos earlier in this thread and/or the links to Yamaha said it was an arranger. Are you saying that Yamaha themselves have reclassified the machine?

(And I thought I was confused before...oi!)

Grey
_________________________
I'm not interested in someone's ability to program. I'm interested in their ability to compose and play.

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#2883349 - 10/04/17 04:40 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: GRollins]
Synthaholic Offline
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Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1417
Loc: Where the wild things are
Weight: 13.0 kg (28 lb, 11 oz)

That's pretty impressive for Yamaha.


Width: 1,234 mm (48-9/16")
Height: 138 mm (5-7/16")
Depth: 456 mm (17-15/16")
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#2883351 - 10/04/17 04:50 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Synthaholic]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/14
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https://usa.yamaha.com/products/contents/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/

Yamaha seems to be classifying the Genos as an Arranger and Workstation. With the Montage (successor to the Motif) now defined as more of a performance synth than workstation, it appears they folded aspects of their Motif and Tyros lines into the Genos. Focus is on Creation and Performance.

Start from the original idea of a song, pick an instrument Voice and Style of your choice. Play and work out the arrangement and capture it as a MIDI song. Then, overdub some sounds and create your demo or even your finished track.


Wide variety of functions can be assigned to the 6 knobs and 9 sliders to control your music through Genos. The Live Control view provides instant visual confirmation of your adjustments of knobs and sliders without interrupting the main display.


FSX keyboard features a premium action with aftertouch. The keys are created in a high-precision manufacturing process for an incredibly durable keybed, enhanced key stability and "fast" action. The keyboard features enhanced touch response allowing for highly expressive and dynamic performances.

From Reverb to Distortion, Rotary Speaker to Compressor, Genos boasts unprecedented DSP power. Using the same VCM technology found in Yamaha professional high-end mixing consoles, Genos has the tools to create a the perfect sound. Not only do the effects sound great, they look great too—with a stunning graphical user interface.


You can continually expand the onboard content of your Genos by creating and installing your own custom or purchased Packs. The scope of possibilities for new sounds and styles is virtually unlimited. Genos includes 1.8GB of user flash memory with high speed reading/writing for your own Voices. Yamaha Expansion Manager version 2.5 for Genos will be available from November.

The audio output of Genos has been completely redesigned to deliver professional quality Analogue outputs helping you get the most of the sounds from your keyboard. The new 32bit Digital Audio Converter (DAC) provides high quality defined sound across a wide frequency range, ensuring Genos always cuts through the mix.

Customise Live Control and store in Registration Memory.

Arpeggio Filter Control automates Live Control, adjusting filters in realtime.

Playlist -create, easily organise the list, instanly recall settings.

Audio Link MultiPad - trigger your own audio files with MultiPads.

Voices: CFX ConcertGrand, 70sSuitcaseWarm1, OrganFlutes, AltoSax, MiniClassicSoft.


Martin Harris Demos



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#2883360 - 10/04/17 05:52 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: ElmerJFudd]
SeaGtGruff Offline
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Registered: 07/09/14
Posts: 155
Loc: Georgia, USA
Didn't I read in another thread here that Stevie Wonder has a Tyros? I'd call him both a song writer and a composer, unless composer is supposed to mean something like an orchestra.

Yamaha calls the Tyros a workstation, arranger workstation, or-- judging from their website-- maybe even a digital workstation. It's definitely an arranger, in my opinion, but is also heavy on the recording/mixing features-- a lot of Tyros owners make their own recordings, from MIDI and vocals through to mixing it all down to MP3-- on the Tyros itself without ever needing to use a DAW.


Edited by SeaGtGruff (10/04/17 05:53 PM)
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#2883365 - 10/04/17 06:20 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Very presumptuous. It's a lot of money no matter how you shake it. The only difference is ones personal financial circumstances, responsibilities, obligations. Are there people that participate here that have the wiggle room to drop this cash as a hobbiest purchase? Yes. Is it wise? Debatable. Are there those that shouldn't? Yes. Are there those that couldn't? Most definitely yes.


Presumptious? I'm just putting it into context. Have you checked out the "show me the pics of your gear" threads? A whole bunch of guys on this forum have 50K of stuff in those pics. Or more. Those are just the keyboard pics. How about all the home studio threads with pics on this forum? Thousands of $$$ of stuff there too and the pics are obviously part of a nice house, not a small apartment. Then there's the demo vids of guys showing off their new toy they just spent three grand on and the vids are shot in a room with racks of more toys.

You're not going to be one of those who's going completely literal on me, are you? You know, someone says "Everybody knows...". Obviously everybody doesn't know anything, it's a figure of speech. But, there's always one guy who just can't help themselves from pointing that out.

There's plenty of disposable income floating around this forum, trust me. Certainly not EVERYONE here. Did I really have to say that? If they want it they can whip out the card and get it. And no, I'm definitely not speaking about myself but I'm a tax guy, I'm capable of doing inventory.

Bob

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#2883371 - 10/04/17 07:23 PM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Jazzmammal]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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I get where you're coming from now, Bob.
I've never posted in the thread. I must be in the wrong line of work and or playing the game of LIFE incorrectly. wink At least I know I'm in good company. grin
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#2883435 - 10/05/17 08:27 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Loc: Redondo Beach, CA
Btw, I forgot to thank you for posting those vids. I think arrangers are a lot of fun. A lot of players here don't understand them and that's ok, it's a different mindset. It takes time with one to learn how they work and how to control it properly. No different than a Kronos, Montage or other high end synth.

Bob

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#2883470 - 10/05/17 11:29 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Jazzmammal]
ElmerJFudd Online   content
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Hey, Bob.
Thankfully Yamaha had their press kit and demos together for the release because I know I'd have ignored this entirely as another Tyros which I've never been interested in. But this board sounds very good! And it looks to check a lot of boxes with regard to families of sounds, fx, expandable even with user samples and Yamaha packs, lots of controls. It's fairly light and the action may very well be a better synth type than most. Plus the right amount of faders for drawbars. The styles and controls for styles I don't need for what I do. Still would like to sit down at one even if it's not exactly what I want and not in my arena. Second hand someday maybe.
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#2883472 - 10/05/17 11:34 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: ElmerJFudd]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Second hand someday maybe.


Yeah, if I can find one of these for $2000 a few years down the road, it might be worthwhile.
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#2883561 - 10/06/17 02:11 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Synthoid]
Aidan Offline
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Originally Posted By: ElmerJFudd
Start from the original idea of a song, pick an instrument Voice and Style of your choice. Play and work out the arrangement and capture it as a MIDI song. Then, overdub some sounds and create your demo or even your finished track.


Just to point out, there's nothing new in the Genos in that respect. You can go through the same process with any Tyros, of Clavinova CVP for that matter.

Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Yeah, if I can find one of these for $2000 a few years down the road, it might be worthwhile.


Just a thought: I paid significantly less than that for my Tyros 4, and it will do around 90% of what Genos is capable of. And reasonably-priced T5s are about to become commonplace, judging by the number of people on the PSR Tutorial Forum who have ordered Genos without even playing one.
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#2883597 - 10/06/17 07:52 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Aidan]
Jazzmammal Offline
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Good point about the PSR forum. The people on this forum are not the ones who hang out on the PSR, Korg or Synthzone forums. I will do that occasionally and it's a whole other musical world. So far my favorite is still the Korg Pa4x forum and there's plenty of Pa3x owners who've already bought the new 4. There's also plenty of crossovers with the cash to buy both a Tyros AND a Pa4 just for kicks I guess because they talk about the differences, likes and dislikes etc. Depending on where in the world they are, that's easily over 10G's USD they're throwing around.

I get the impression that the US is not the biggest market for these. Europe, Asia and the Middle East are huge. One of the biggest and best makers of arrangers is the Italian company Ketron and they are rarely mentioned on the usual online sellers websites or forums or any of the usual musical websites I frequent but the demo vids are really good and they're in the 4-5 grand range too.

Even though I'm a 90% live music band player now, if I were younger and still hustling for gigs I would be all over one of these because of the opportunity to make more money with one. When the old show group broke up I wound up doing a 6 night a week duo gig with a guitarist for years. I'm sort of a capitalistic musical person with some artistic ability. A "get the job done" kind of a guy. Something like this would have been great for that.

It very true what Aidan said about the younger music market crowd using Abelton but I think this is an example of a niche group of very enthusiastic performers with money that's large enough to make it worth it. Here's something I came across that's an example of one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4J0fW7oRNA

Call it cheesy, call it whatever, this dude's a player and knows what he's doing.

Bob

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#2883723 - 10/07/17 12:20 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Jazzmammal]
EscapeRocks Offline
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This isn't a Genos, but I had to....

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#2883734 - 10/07/17 04:44 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: EscapeRocks]
konaboy Offline
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Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 916
Seems a bit lame that you have to adjust parameters by first selecting a knob on the touch screen and then moving your hand to the data wheel to change the value. no multitouch or swipe? i know it's nit-picking but disappointing in 2017 on something priced this high.

One more quick thought, there's never been a better time to buy a used Tyros 5 smile


Edited by konaboy (10/07/17 04:54 AM)
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#2883736 - 10/07/17 05:07 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Aidan]
Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted By: Aidan
Originally Posted By: Synthoid
Yeah, if I can find one of these for $2000 a few years down the road, it might be worthwhile.


Just a thought: I paid significantly less than that for my Tyros 4, and it will do around 90% of what Genos is capable of. And reasonably-priced T5s are about to become commonplace, judging by the number of people on the PSR Tutorial Forum who have ordered Genos without even playing one.


Something to think about for sure. But not this year... my car needs tires.
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#2883745 - 10/07/17 07:21 AM Re: Yamaha Genos [Re: Synthoid]
burningbusch Offline
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I don't think the high-end arrangers are as popular in the USA as they are elsewhere. I watch my local CL religiously and they are a very rare bird, whereas the other keyboards we talk about are here pop up regularly. I think I saw a Tyros 2 new in a GC years ago and there was a piano/organ shop that carried Roland arrangers but they went out of business. The cheap ones, sure, but not the high-end.

Busch.

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