Nord Stage 3 vs. the rest

[MikeT156]

If it's the Supernatural organ engine, same as on the FA06, it is modelled. Usable with some tweaking, but probably about par with the Korg CX3 engine. The Montage still has Rompler Organs, probably it's biggest weakness.

 

I don't understand why Yamaha continues to ship an expense instrument like the Montage with 3rd rate organ sounds and a TERRIBLE Leslie SIMM. What we have is a "Failure to upgrade" the known weakness of that line of Yamaha synths.

[Docbop]

I don't understand why Yamaha continues to ship an expense instrument like the Montage with 3rd rate organ sounds and a TERRIBLE Leslie SIMM. What we have is a "Failure to upgrade" the known weakness of that line of Yamaha synths.

 

From my time in software dev' world make me wonder is the is some lurking legal, contractual, agreement hanging over their heads. They acquired some tech or an engineer that came with agreement they couldn't venture into other tech any further than they already were.

 

Or like a big software company I worked for we designed a new interface component that we knew everyone would want to copy. We patented it along with a whole bunch of other things and never saying a word about. The trap was set just waiting for that software giant in Washington who we've had many battle with to copy it. They copied it got rave reviews for their product having it and then our legal team called them up and say by the way we have a patent on that. We got the evil from Washington agreement stop raiding our employees and access to some of their tech in trade for right to use our patented tech. Behind the scenes in software world is different than what the public sees.

[obxa]

I will say this, If I'm thrown into unknown waters, I'll grab my Nord Stage first before anything else. Though pricey at the onset, all my Nord purchases over the last couple of years have maintained value and paid for themselves. More than any Korg/Kurzweil/Yamaha stuff i've invested in.

 

The fact that they let you load your own samples (albeit clumsily.....) is what's kept mine from obsolescence and still working. Plus they're reliable.

 

Nord is kinda strange with updates over last couple of years: been more about memory, displays, and crossfading features, rather than the sound engine. So early generations like the NS2 or Electro 5 are still valid and cost effective. The organ is dated, but very useful if not using a dedicated clonewheel, and I'll still take it over any of the other stuff.

 

Having spent many programming hours hunched over those small Nord screens, I really wish there was a computer editor.

[AnotherScott]

I don't understand why Yamaha continues to ship an expense instrument like the Montage with 3rd rate organ sounds and a TERRIBLE Leslie SIMM. What we have is a "Failure to upgrade" the known weakness of that line of Yamaha synths.

 

From my time in software dev' world make me wonder is the is some lurking legal, contractual, agreement hanging over their heads. They acquired some tech or an engineer that came with agreement they couldn't venture into other tech any further than they already were.

Nothing is preventing Yamaha from trying... they did come out with the Reface YC (which I think is also similar to what's in the Genos/Tyros?) and now the YC61/73/88 (which use modeling rather than sampling for their organ engine). They just haven't yet cracked the nut of how to create a truly high quality rotary sim (at least within whatever constraints may exist within their hardware/software platforms). This gets back to one of my old axioms, that just because one company can do something, that doesn't mean that every company can do it. And every architecture has its unique considerations.

 

They did at least add 9-drawbar functionality to the Montage/MODX though it's done with the standard sampling engine and not a dedicated organ engine, so there can be phase issues, and polyphony can go quickly (e.g. 9 drawbars plus a click and leakage would mean 11 instances of polyphony per key... not so much of an issue if playing organ alone, but very much of one if used in conjunction with other layers and/or backing tracks). And they don't give you the full set of real-time controls (e.g. Montage has only 8 faders, so you have to hit a button to get to the 9th drawbar control, and there is no mode to reverse the sliders' orientation so that all the way up would be Off).

[Kurt W]

This gets back to one of my old axioms, that just because one company can do something, that doesn't mean that every company can do it. And every architecture has its unique considerations.

 

The HX3, Crumar Mojo and Viscount Legend are all more or less one-man projects. Korg developed a passable B3 model twenty years ago and still use it. I don"t think the others are unable to do it, but they rather don"t consider it necessary or important. The Hammond afficiandos probably is a so small, aging group of potential buyers that they simply don"t influence much on their sales. Considered a YC88 as I either use a real Leslie or a Vent but the lack of routable audio outputs stopped the interest. The Stage 3 Compact on top of any 88 keys controller still rules for me. But hope they will develop the B3 and sampler section further on a Stage 4.

[stoken6]

This gets back to one of my old axioms, that just because one company can do something, that doesn't mean that every company can do it. And every architecture has its unique considerations.

 

The HX3, Crumar Mojo and Viscount Legend are all more or less one-man projects. Korg developed a passable B3 model twenty years ago and still use it. I don"t think the others are unable to do it, but they rather don"t consider it necessary or important. The Hammond afficiandos probably is a so small, aging group of potential buyers that they simply don"t influence much on their sales. Considered a YC88 as I either use a real Leslie or a Vent but the lack of routable audio outputs stopped the interest. The Stage 3 Compact on top of any 88 keys controller still rules for me. But hope they will develop the B3 and sampler section further on a Stage 4.

You could add Neo Instruments to the list of "more or less one-man projects". But be careful of survivor bias - we've named four successful singletons, but we haven't named any of those (dozens? hundreds? thousands?) who tried, failed and gave up.

 

On reflection, I think I've just reworded Scott's quote at the top of this post.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

The HX3, Crumar Mojo and Viscount Legend are all more or less one-man projects.

... which also could mean that these people may have specific talents in an area that few people do. (Also, consider how many years HX3 was doing their thing before they had a good Leslie sim.) But I think the biggest differentiator may be that they all designed dedicated electronics specifically to implement their organ models. Even Crumar, which is the only one that also supports non-organ sounds, doesn't need to play more than one sound at a time (or two, in a Gemini module). Bringing this back to my main point ("just because one company can do something, that doesn't mean that every company can do it" + "every architecture has its unique considerations"), creating a $750+ dedicated organ box is a different challenge than building a comparable organ into a board whose technologies and architecture are designed around other sound generating systems and being able to mix-and-match up to 16 sounds at a time, each with their own effects, etc. Look at even Kurzweil, whose rotary effect is not great... they only get it as good as they do by using gobs and gobs of effects resources, leaving few available for any other split/layered sounds. Yamaha takes a different approach, they don't permit the system to "borrow" DSP effects resources from unused voices to create "better" effects for one voice as Kurzweil does. While that probably leaves them at a relative disadvantage when trying to implement a complicated effect like a Leslie, the trade-off is, you can always split/layer up to 8 parts at once and never worry about not having enough effects resources for each one to sound just the way it does when it is played by itself, something not true on a Kurzweil. Different architecture have different trade-offs.

[Kurt W]

I still think their consideration mostly are what they have is good enough to not influence their sales. If a better B3 implementation was considered as mandatory they would have bought the knowhow and if needed made the necessary platform adaptations. Elvio Previati is behind the Viscount Legend and could surely been the man behind a Yamaha Legend. Just my humble opinion :-)

[Aynsley Green]

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion everyone.

Yamaha have never had good organs, the lousy Motif ones is what got me looking in to clonewheels in the first place. They clearly just don't see the importance, given how well they nail other things.

 

So, in a pleasant plot twist, my day job is procuring a Nord Stage 3 88, so I shall take that as a sign from the God's that I should get one for myself as well, so I only have to learn one board, and can clone the patches on both. Will add the MODX or Hammond as necessary. The Yamaha still smokes the Nord in the sample department - horns, accordion, guitars, etc. (essential on Latin gigs), and adds that redundancy a few people mentioned (good idea). I was also thinking I could drive the patch changes from the MODX into the Nord Stage - that big colour touchscreen is very reassuring on stage, having Scenes per song etc.

I am interested to see how the A1 synth engine stacks up against the Korg Prologue, too.

 

Addendum question, two-tier stand solution? Been using a Stay Compact stand and it's great, are their bigger brother stands worth the bread? Or should I go for the official Nord stand?

[stillearning]

I used a two tier QuickLok M91 Monolith when I took multiple boards. Quick set up, folds flat, sturdy, very adjustable second tier.

[AnotherScott]

I still think their consideration mostly are what they have is good enough to not influence their sales. If a better B3 implementation was considered as mandatory they would have bought the knowhow and if needed made the necessary platform adaptations. Elvio Previati is behind the Viscount Legend and could surely been the man behind a Yamaha Legend. Just my humble opinion :-)

The existence of the YC61/YC73/YC88 seems to indicate they do see the market potential of a better B3 implementation. (Though whether this tech makes it into whatever eventually replaces a Montage is anyone's guess.) Arguably they still haven't quite gotten it right, at least when it comes to Leslie, but at least they are trying to address that more organ-centric buyer.

 

Of course none of us know what happens behind the scenes, but just to devil's advocate some possibilities as to why they didn't buy that knowhow... Maybe Elvio doesn't want to work for Yamaha. Maybe Yamaha's greater overhead would mean that a board based on the Legend platform but produced by them would have ended up being marketed at a much higher price than what Elvio can sell his stuff for, and it would no longer be competitive. Maybe Elvio's architecture is so different from Yamaha's design approach that it would be more difficult/expensive to do what they did with the YC61 (build the organ into a multi-function board that houses other Yamaha sounds), and the market for organ-only boards is too small/nichey for Yamaha to be able to commit resources to. Maybe Yamaha--like many companies--has an anti-"NIH" ("not invented here") phiosophy, believing (rightly or wrongly) that they can always develop something better in-house.

 

Here is an interesting video about the YC61's development (turn on subtitles, unless you speak Japanese):[video:youtube]

[allan_evett]

The existence of the YC61/YC73/YC88 seems to indicate they do see the market potential of a better B3 implementation. (Though whether this tech makes it into whatever eventually replaces a Montage is anyone's guess.) Arguably they still haven't quite gotten it right, at least when it comes to Leslie, but at least they are trying to address that more organ-centric buyer.

 

While programming my YC88, the Leslie sim didn't sound terrible on its own; but when using it on stage this past Thursday night it sounded slightly out of tune, with some odd warbles in spots on the audio spectrum. I was 'trying out' the YC's organ engine on a few songs, comparing it to that of my Stage 3, 76 - which sits up-top. While I might try a few other tweaks on the organ section's output, the Stage 3 will stay as the go-to. Right now it sits well in a rock mix, with little-to-no tweaks. I'm thinking the YC might sit better in a acoustic or jazz mix right now, though that rotary sim certainly needs some help. The core, tonewheel sound does have a certain authenticity though - Yamaha's particular take on that tone; I remember hearing a faintly similar sound when first playing the organ section of an SK-30, in the early 1980s. Good to see that they're moving more deeply into clonewheel modeling.

[mdenriet]

Maybe if someone is not looking for a "All-in -one"" solution, A good alternative would be a combination of a Kawai MP7SE / GSI Gemini module / Novation Peak. That would cost the same as a nord stage 3. Better keyboard, organs , rhodes, synth, maybe equivalent Acc piano. . If you have some spare money you could add a Crumar d9x for better organ controls.

[Delaware Dave]

The GSI Gemini is the shit. With the new Steinway (D-274 model) the weakest piece of the module are the saxophones but even those are decent. The new piano is very good, and we know that all the electro-mechanicals are top notch. It also comes with about 3 dozen other instruments, including a very good synthesizer. The big advantage of this is that now you just need a controller of YOUR choice to drive it; and if you want to use a couple of controllers together (one w/ weighted keys and one with organ/synth keys) you can do that. Three years from now if you find a better controller you can switch it out and still have the same great sounds.

[Doerfler]

The GSI Gemini is the shit.

 

dB had one set up at Gearfest a few years back. I really liked it. I liked it better when Moonglow or dB was playing it.

 

I don't believe it is available anymore in the USA, not an official announcent, just what I am observing.

[Delaware Dave]

Thomann's appears to carry them and in fact a purchase through Thomann is actually several hundred dollars cheaper landed than what the price was via a US distributor a few years back. Looks like you're correct, the US based distributors are no longer in the mix. Thomann's also offers a 3 year warranty; when they were sold via a US distributor it was a 1 year warranty; so through Thomanns it's cheaper and a longer warranty.

[Doerfler]

I like Thomann USA, I have purchased from them, however anything over US $800 is subject to US Customs charges and one never knows how long anything takes to clear customs and what the charges will be.

[wd8dky]

How are the customs charges assessed? Is it an adder to the purchase price?

 

Thank you

[Doerfler]

don't remember exactly, Thomann informs the customer after checkout before they process the order in my experience, YMMV

 

I myself never purchased anything from them over US $800 just for this reason

[jeffincltnc]

I just saw the revival of this thread. The Roland Fantom does now have the fully modeled VK organ engine in Fantom now. It's actually implemented quite well with the touch screen and faders for drawbars. It sounds good in a band setting and plenty of good presets came with the update. You can route the output to a Vent if you want a better sim.

 

Overall, the Fantom 8 is very playable and well thought out. It is way too large to be a regular gigging instrument for the weekend warrior at 61+ pounds without a case. The action, synths and effects are excellent. The SuperNatural Rhodes is pretty good on the Fantom 8, nothing to write home about with the raw sample but the effects are great and by the time you combine a phaser, chorus, tremolo and maybe a pad underneath you are in business. V-Piano is very playable but I'll leave it up to you if you like the sound or not. It's not my favorite, but it's not my least favorite. Lots of updates have come with that purchase.

 

On the subject of Nord that we're getting back to, I seem to thrive on the interface and layout of Stage 3 as well as the Wave 2. Never had to read a manual for those (maybe I should), but I do think Nord has not kept up with refreshing its pianos and electric pianos in a while. The frequency of releases for new sampled pianos, uprights and EPs has definitely gone dry for a few years even as they released new products like Nord Grand and Nord Piano 5 without a new flagship piano sound inside.

[Docbop]

Per this website the Customs Duty is 6.5% so for a NS3 you're probably looking around $230. I wonder if your state will want to charge some state fee or tax too. I know California has Use tax for large out of state purchases that in past they didn't enforce much, but I hear they are really going after people these days buying things like grand piano, cars, and other expensive items. As expected the Use tax is same rate as CA sales tax.

 

https://wise.com/us/import-duty/

[Stokely]

Thomann won't ship Nord keyboards to the US based on my attempt to add one to my cart

 

I did purchase a PC4 from them, briefly, until they helpfully emailed me and wanted to make sure that I knew that the US gov was going to add a hefty import fee to it--how much was unknown, but they estimated at least 25%. The $800 dollar figure was mentioned. Additionally, products from China may be subject to additional government fees or customs due to our trade relationship with them being...not great. I knew about NONE of this and was grateful to find out, if disappointed.

 

I took them up on their offer to cancel the keyboard purchase, but I did proceed with buying a K&M stand, which was a good deal even with shipping. I just checked price+shipping for the 3rd tier for that stand, and it's NOT a good deal, the shipping makes it higher than buying from the states. My impression after checking a number of things in the cart is that the shipping kind of starts at a pretty high amount but doesn't increase a lot with each item, so buying more items makes it a better deal. It's also possible that the recent overall shipping woes have caused prices to jump.

[MathOfInsects]

Nords are overpriced and shameless hipster props, and also devastatingly ideal for flexible live-band situations. The two real drawbacks (beyond price)--the fixed split points and small screen compared to most--are far outweighed by how nimble the boards are in live contexts. If I could find a board that let me be as responsive in real time to whatever's going on, as I can with Nord, I'd save that extra $ in a heartbeat and buy a yacht.

 

Speaking of which, I could never imagine doing a yacht rock gig with any single board, and particularly not the NS3, since the requirements often make flexible split points and multiple types of each "type" of sound a necessity. I use an NS3C and a Roland FA06 for the yacht rock band I sometimes play with; the Nord is ideal, the Roland is a placeholder for any of five or six different choice second-board choices--some of which definitely would make the $%^#$%^%^&% parts in Africa easier to navigate through in real time.

 

OP, it might be worth getting your hands on a Nord Grand as a bottom board. I made the mistake of playing one a couple of months ago and can't remember ever responding as immediately to the weighted-key action of a DP. Somehow it made the sound of me eventually spending $3000.

[Stokely]

I've only owned an Electro and regret selling it honestly. I only did so in preparations for buying a Stage 3, but the deal fell through when covid hit and I spent some of that money on something else Now the Stage 3s are past the threshold I'm willing to pay and the place with the deal has none in stock and doesn't think they'll get any for a long time.

 

Not many keyboards have a great build quality and are light and compact. That's a big deal to some, granted the top of the line 88 isn't really light. I almost always only used the "global presets" on my electro, the ones that saved automatically...I just tweaked them song to song as I saw fit and it was quite a bit more free than having a structured patch per song. Mainly I tweaked the fx but those could radically change the sound. No way I'd be able to do that with my MODX quite to that degree.

[jeffincltnc]

I don't think they are overpriced or hipster props. I think that I utilize Nord Stage 3 and Wave 2 for a pretty full breadth of what they do and also there are not tons and tons of features that I don't use. I find them reliable, well built and efficient to carry and transport for what they bring to gigs.

[analogika]

Nords are overpriced and shameless hipster props, and also devastatingly ideal for flexible live-band situations. The two real drawbacks (beyond price)--the fixed split points and small screen compared to most--are far outweighed by how nimble the boards are in live contexts.

LOL. They aren't nearly as "overpriced" here in Europe, which makes them slightly more ubiquitous and slightly less "hipster prop". But I agree on everything else.

 

OP, it might be worth getting your hands on a Nord Grand as a bottom board. I made the mistake of playing one a couple of months ago and can't remember ever responding as immediately to the weighted-key action of a DP. Somehow it made the sound of me eventually spending $3000.

This, too, I relate to. They had one set up with the fancy red overpriced speakers at a store here in town, and I briefly laid hands on it and was immediately taken. This was after having played the Moog ONE and a bunch of other stuff also set up in the room.

 

I don't think they are overpriced or hipster props. I think that I utilize Nord Stage 3 and Wave 2 for a pretty full breadth of what they do and also there are not tons and tons of features that I don't use. I find them reliable, well built and efficient to carry and transport for what they bring to gigs.

I think MathOfInsects had his tongue firmly in cheek when he wrote that. He appears to like them a lot, anyway.

[Shamanczarek]

Thomann won't even sell the vastly overpriced Nord Triple Pedal or the hugely overpriced Nord padded bag to US customers. I wonder why they list these things in US dollars if they can't sell them here. I tried to order the Stage 3 Compact from Thomann a few years ago and of course that was not available for US buyers. Luckily I found an even better price from a US dealer.

[AnotherScott]

I wonder why they list these things in US dollars if they can't sell them here.

They're not putting different prices in for different regions or currencies, the currency conversion is automated. So you can see any item on their web site in any currency Thomann deals with.

[cphollis]

OP, it might be worth getting your hands on a Nord Grand as a bottom board. I made the mistake of playing one a couple of months ago and can't remember ever responding as immediately to the weighted-key action of a DP. Somehow it made the sound of me eventually spending $3000.

 

Hahaha, you were lucky you weren't in a grand piano showroom! +1 on the NG action, if I could get that in smaller Nord Piano package I'd own one by now. This is no knock against the NP5 action which I like (esp. the 73 which looks to gig well), it's just that the NG action is next-level and it shows immediately. Side note: over on the Nord forum there are quite a few people gigging with two NS3s.

[stoken6]

Nords are overpriced and shameless hipster props, and also devastatingly ideal for flexible live-band situations.

Basically true. "Overpriced" is of course relative to what people will pay (market forces) and Nord seem to be doing well with the Stage.

 

OP, it might be worth getting your hands on a Nord Grand as a bottom board. I made the mistake of playing one a couple of months ago and can't remember ever responding as immediately to the weighted-key action of a DP. Somehow it made the sound of me eventually spending $3000.

What Kawais use the same action - MP7SE? Would that be an alternative?

 

Side note: over on the Nord forum there are quite a few people gigging with two NS3s.

If a custom shop PRS and hand-wired Dumble is "Lawyer Blues", then two Nords is presumably "Lawyer Reds"? (I'm guilty as charged by the way - although not a lawyer)

 

Cheers, Mike.