xKnuckles Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Hello. In these strange times of 'social distancing" etc. I am interested in finding out if there is a way to rehearse an entire band in separate locations by some app or other. Have any of you done this - is it even possible? If so, I would really appreciate hearing about your experience of it especially in terms of latency, ability to hear everyone else, and whether you consider it to be worthwhile....Also any recommendations of what software to use.... Many thanks. ð Quote "Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" Bluzeyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delaware Dave Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 I would think that latency would be a large enough issue that it would make it not possible. Quote 57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn Delaware Dave Exit93band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 I have used https://www.jamkazam.com/ with singers a few times over the last two years for situations where scheduling or travel has been a problem before a gig together. If you and the other musician has fast internet (100/100 let's say), the latency is significantly less than Skype or FaceTime - but obviously not gone, there is still latency and it's annoying, just way better than other services. JamKazam provides either audio or audio+video rehearsals. I recommend plugging the ethernet cable in on both sides if possible. And obviously if you have an audio interface and a better quality mic and headphones on both sides it will improve the experience. Haven't tried it with more than one other player but the software supports it. I can't imagine the latency feels good - being together in one room is best. But it's maybe one of the best efforts yet to make this possible. Alternatively, it might be better just to agree on a tempo, play to a metronome and send each other pre-recorded tracks to drop into multitrack software. Some DAWs have already started integrated online sessions where parts can be recorded into the project from afar. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 I've heard of JamKazam, wasn't sure it was still a thing, so thank you. My wife teaches voice privately and she is moving all of her lessons to Skype for the time being. Her students are all on board, and she's done some lessons with people who teach remotely regularly to pick up some tricks, and it seems like that model is workable. But it really forces you to rethink the "I'll play the piano and you sing along" model... Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 I would think that latency would be a large enough issue that it would make it not possible. That would be my feeling. In my (non-pro, bar/club band experience) several things are the reasons bands don't get songs down: - communication on which version to do - how many times have I shown up and people have learned different versions from youtube (live vs different studio cuts, even covers from other people) because there was no communication. - taking that further, people learn different songs entirely because there wasn't communication! - people don't learn their individual parts fully, thinking they'll rely on others and pick it up on the fly. So I guess what I'm saying is--a band can learn a lot of songs without getting together. When you finally do get together, IF--BIG IF--people have been diligent then you should be able to blow through them. Where remote stuff might be real handy though is just to verify parts, especially vocals. "Which vocal part are you taking? Here is what I'm singing" etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 I've heard of JamKazam, wasn't sure it was still a thing, so thank you. My wife teaches voice privately and she is moving all of her lessons to Skype for the time being. Her students are all on board, and she's done some lessons with people who teach remotely regularly to pick up some tricks, and it seems like that model is workable. But it really forces you to rethink the "I'll play the piano and you sing along" model... I know that there are people successfully teaching with Skype or FaceTime. With instrumental lessons, it very much becomes a - "let me see/hear you play. comment, demonstrate, back and forth". The latency is just terrible for accompany or playing simultaneously with a student. I hiope we aren't raising a generation of players with lousy timing. If I play for a singer using Skype or Facetime - it's better if I play in time and lower the volume on the singer for my ears. If I don't - I'm tempted to adjust my playing to be in time with their performance which in turn makes them want to adjust to me - which is bizarre. It's crap really if you can't get the latency way down. As I suggested above, JamKazam has prioritized the latency performance and have significantly less traffic on their platform than general purpose solutions like Facetime or Skype. It's noticeably lower, but not low enough. I guess the benefit of Skype or Facetime is the large % of people to have access to either already. But if latency is a priority it's worth it to get one of these other solutions working on the student and teacher's end. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xKnuckles Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 I have just been on the jamkazam site. It looks like exactly the sort of thing I was after so many thanks to you, Elmer. Just have to persuade the rest of the band now.... Quote "Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" Bluzeyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xKnuckles Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 P.s..... I haven't been here for quite a while. I had forgotten how lovely and user friendly the new site is. it all looks great. ð Quote "Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" Bluzeyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamuelBLupowitz Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 I'm always interested in this sort of thing, since a big part of my day job is supporting multi-site (Cornell, Columbia, Yale) language courses using videoconference technology. Latency is very important for speech and conversation, as is audio clarity, but music is on another level. Turns out it's really coming in handy to know how to do this stuff right now. Quote Samuel B. Lupowitz Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 I don't know. I think I would miss the bass player getting drunk and falling over my rig. Or the singer storming out in a rage. On the other hand I could rehearse at home and not worry about putting on pants. Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukskywalker Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 I"m struggling with this very thing here. Producers coming at me with this 'remote jam session' idea. As soon as I say latency they all just glaze over and give me a blank stare. Then somebody says 'clicktrack'. Yes, but... Now, I"m the guy that wants to leave my rig at home and play the home hardware from anywhere with a minimal controller. Wack? Yes...but... I think we"re getting closer, with GPS and all so yeah, soon come, but spontaneity will likely suffer...at first. (some kinda mix-minus...everywhere?) Edit: I so love this board. Thanks for the Jamkazam tip!! On my way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyFF Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 I've been hearing that 5G for smartphones would make things like this more possible. At least within the the mobile world, it's supposed to make multi-player gaming near instantaneous, though as we all know, even 20ms latency is close to unuseable. I've read that latency is potentially under 10 ms using 5G, though of course this is mostly theoretical, esp given that there won't be even coverage of 5G everywhere. Looking forward to not having to pay $65-$80/month for broadband! Quote Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425 Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBarker Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 Gaming is really driving this. Kiddos need instantaneous headshots without lag! This really helps us, as our requirements allow for maybe a little more latency than there's. I would say that 50ms is the cutoff. It's suggested that even a good orchestra don't really enter much closer than 40ms between the first and last player to play a note. I think you can get away with a slight lag. I find that within 5 minutes a self-adjust. More than 50ms and it's pretty awful though. 20ms is nothing. Acoustically, that's a person 20ft away from me. I've played on stages 50ft, and though you feel the time difference, it's manageable. Quote Puck Funk! Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 From what I understand with gaming, drops in signal, latency is dealt with predictive physics. If your avatar in the game is moving left, they can keep it moving left in real-time while they wait for new data to catch up. With real time audio it"s trickier - there"s no way to fill in the gaps and we"re very sensitive to latency and fluctuations in timing. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBarker Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 From what I understand with gaming, drops in signal, latency is dealt with predictive physics. If your avatar in the game is moving left, they can keep it moving left in real-time while they wait for new data to catch up. With real time audio it"s trickier - there"s no way to fill in the gaps and we"re very sensitive to latency and fluctuations in timing. That's a good point, yeah, I had heard of that too but forgot it. I looked into remote rehearsal when I first moved to Hawaii about 6 years ago, I had this crazy idea that I'd be able to still rehearse with my old band in Alaska. At the time you pretty much had to use Web2.0 or a dedicated connection. Now with fiber and 5G on the horizon, it might be more doable. Quote Puck Funk! Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyFF Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Eric, Yeah, I suppose it depends on the music. Slow strings are one thing, a lively tune with fast moving percussion hits hits are another. But of course, it depends on the player as well how much latency is acceptable. Quote Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425 Yamaha Melodica and Alto Recorder QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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