This was Fun: Guitar/band talk at gig:

[Dr. Ellwood]

I have been thinking (since I have been on the Forum) that we should announce before breaks that if anyone in the audience is a musician,we welcome chatting with them about equipment or music and to just come up to the stage or our band table. Well last night we did it and wow what a lot of fun! We had at least ten guys and two girls come over and chat at every break! What started it was it seemed like everytime we went on break there would always be a few people come up to the stage when we where sitting down at the break table and just STARE! at the instruments and amps etc. Anyway it was a fun thing and everybody in the band liked it and we are going to always extend the offer from now on.

[Gruupi]

Great idea Elwood. It sounds like a good way to build a dedicated fan base. It makes other musicians feel like they have a link to the band.

Maybe some of them will recommend you for other gigs and vice versa.

[Darklava]

Man you can jam...thanks dude....I have a friend

that can play guitar....cool....yeh he can play Van Halen to the T......Wow thats cool...you guys know any country?......Nope sorry....Hey whats this for..As he's spillin his drink on my pedals.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Darklava:

Man you can jam...thanks dude....I have a friend

that can play guitar....cool....yeh he can play Van Halen to the T......Wow thats cool...you guys know any country?......Nope sorry....Hey whats this for..As he's spillin his drink on my pedals.

Ya I know, but this went pretty good though, they where all musicians and I had three guitar players and the keyboard had two (he went up and demoed on of his board to a guy) the bass player three guys an one girl and the drummer had a girl and two guys. Nobody asked to sit in. I had one dad come ovet and ask about a guitar for his teen son. All these people seemed to be very nice and respectful.

[Hardtail]

Lee,

 

For people that do sit in with you, what tuning do you guys use? Just plain ol' A=440?

[LPCustom]

Yeah, it's funny how many people in the audience are musicians.

 

One of the most common questions I used to get during a break was "so how do you get into a band?".

 

Another question you always get is "Do you guys know any [insert artist/band name here]?".

 

Of course there were always people coming up who were just interested in your gear. Right after my Black Beauty got stolen I got a little paranoid about that, but it wore off soon enough.

 

We didn't have a band table (we weren't that organized) People at the bar would always talk to you, too.

 

One night one of the people who came up and was asking about my stompbox was none other than Barry Bailey of ARS. One comment he made was that he liked our rendition of "Imaginary Lover". I didn't recognize him until he said his name was Barry as he was walking away. We were doing three of their songs in our setlist then (So Into You, Imaginary Lover and Silent Treatment - it was 1982 and ARS was hot ).

 

Every time I think about that, I want to kick myself. I had a zillion questions I wanted to ask him. But it's probably better that I didn't recognize him at first. He'd have thought I was a pest.

 

I think you guys making the announcement is a great idea, Lee. We never did that, but we always had people coming up to us during breaks and asking questions and going up on the stage and gawking at our gear.

 

One guy even came up on stage and picked up my Les Paul Custom while I was tuning my Strat after fixing a broken string. He just looked at it and said "This is gorgeous" and put it back down. It took about a minute for my heart to start beating again. From the look on her face, I thought Janice (our other guitarist) was going to smack him. The bouncer threw him out after he left the stage. I put up a sign after that (from then on) that said "Look but don't touch". Nobody ever did that again.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by KPB:

Lee,

 

For people that do sit in with you, what tuning do you guys use? Just plain ol' A=440?

Well I talked awhile ago in some posts about sitting in with us, I said that the only way someone could sit in with us is to come to our rehersal and work out their one or two tunes, do it right and be proud of what they do. Once they have done that they can always sit in with us on those tunes. We say if they want to go to the trouble of doing that we are glad to accomodate them. We tune to only 440 the only exception has been when a slide guy wants to sit in and then he tunes his open tuning to match our standard tuning.

[Dr. Ellwood]

LP Ya its horriable isnt it! "It took about a minute for my heart to start beating again. From the look on her face, I thought Janice (our other guitarist) was going to smack him. The bouncer threw him out after he left the stage. I put up a sign after that (from then on) that said "Look but don't touch". Nobody ever did that again."

 

OK listent to THIS ONE... talk about terror!.. We where playing a gig at a place called Coral Gables on Woodard Av. (for local guys will remember it) anyways... I had broken my knee cap in a motorcycle accident and was in a cast on my left leg from the hip to ankle so I had to sit down to play. We where in there rehersing on a Monday afternoon us and two bar keeps and their book keeper... we took a break and I was sittin on the stage with my cast sticking out over the edge of the stage. This guy walked in ... got up on the stage and took my 335 and went out the DOOR!!! I was yelling my ass off!! the bass player saw him do it and I couldnt move! he ran outside and here is this guy holding my guitar showing it to another guy!! actually he was about to walk back in with it!! he said he asked before if he could come in for a second to show his friend the guitar he had been in the night before and saw it! but the book keeper wouldnt let them in during the day!!! they where both so high on weed they didnt even know what the heck they where doing. WE called the PD but they took off!!

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Well I talked awhile ago in some posts about sitting in with us, I said that the only way someone could sit in with us is to come to our rehersal and work out their one or two tunes, do it right and be proud of what they do. Once they have done that they can always sit in with us on those tunes. We say if they want to go to the trouble of doing that we are glad to accomodate them. We tune to only 440 the only exception has been when a slide guy wants to sit in and then he tunes his open tuning to match our standard tuning.

I was just curious. I like A=440 myself. I've had auditions for bands where they tune down to Eb or even D and I basically said.. nope... I'm not comfortable with those tunings. I guess I'm a limited guitarist but I know what I like.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Hey, that's great, Lee!

 

You'll have to get a band website (if you don't already have one, for each band) and pass the addy around to such folks at your gigs, maybe have it printed on business-cards (kindly specify that phone-calls should be limited to genuine booking arrangements, though). And you could hip them to this and other MusicPlayer Forums, too!

 

Years ago, I let this one guy- who was long on interest but short on, well, cerebral connections- play my guitar at a gig...

 

It was during a tune where I sat it out, anyways, and I made sure that the guitar and amp were all completely unplugged and disconnected. He didn't even notice, and had the time of his life "jammin'" with the band in front of an audience. He was my new best friend anytime I ran into him after that; I was very glad that my indulgence (subterfuge and all) had made him so happy, I really believe that it did him some good!

 

After that, he got himself an inexpensive Strat-style guitar and a little battery-powered mini-amp of some sort that would clip onto his guitar-strap; he could be seen all over that town in good weather, wailing away and lovin' it!

[Gifthorse]

Yeah I remember this one gig, I probably posted about it before. This drunk ass kept coming up to me in between songs. He was saying "hey man, can you play the solo in Over The Mountain?" I would say "yes but we are playing our set, I will talk to you about it later!"

 

"hey can you play Revelation Mother Earth solo?" "I am busy, I will talk to you later about it." then.. "you suck man, you can't play it can you! my buddy is way better than you!!"

 

It was funny, I am sure Museipp remembers.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Dances With Werewolves:

Hey, that's great, Lee!

 

You'll have to get a band website (if you don't already have one, for each band) and pass the addy around to such folks at your gigs, maybe have it printed on business-cards (kindly specify that phone-calls should be limited to genuine booking arrangements, though). And you could hip them to this and other MusicPlayer Forums, too!

 

Years ago, I let this one guy- who was long on interest but short on, well, cerebral connections- play my guitar at a gig...

 

It was during a tune where I sat it out, anyways, and I made sure that the guitar and amp were all completely unplugged and disconnected. He didn't even notice, and had the time of his life "jammin'" with the band in front of an audience. He was my new best friend anytime I ran into him after that; I was very glad that my indulgence (subterfuge and all) had made him so happy, I really believe that it did him some good!

 

After that, he got himself an inexpensive Strat-style guitar and a little battery-powered mini-amp of some sort that would clip onto his guitar-strap; he could be seen all over that town in good weather, wailing away and lovin' it!

Good idea on the website for the Blues project band when its working ... we have one for the regular band (link on bottom or post) but I will have to build one for the blues thing. I dont want either of the bands to be associated in anyway though. We quit posting a calendar since we have been in Canada for 21/2 years now and wont with the blues thing either. The reason for not posting the amount we play can be discussed in a PM but it has to do with business and income.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by KPB:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Well I talked awhile ago in some posts about sitting in with us, I said that the only way someone could sit in with us is to come to our rehersal and work out their one or two tunes, do it right and be proud of what they do. Once they have done that they can always sit in with us on those tunes. We say if they want to go to the trouble of doing that we are glad to accomodate them. We tune to only 440 the only exception has been when a slide guy wants to sit in and then he tunes his open tuning to match our standard tuning.

I was just curious. I like A=440 myself. I've had auditions for bands where they tune down to Eb or even D and I basically said.. nope... I'm not comfortable with those tunings. I guess I'm a limited guitarist but I know what I like.

Yep I agree there. I dont do dropped tuning, I dont like the dark sound and I dont see any reason for it. I dont like the action on the instrument when Its dropped as well as the sound.Besides that our keyboard player refuses to be in a band that uses dropped tuning!

[Hardtail]

Lee,

 

That's one thing (of many) that I like about jazz as opposed to rock.

 

With jazz guitar, you have an opportunity to play with a wider variety of instrumentalists so open chords/strings aren't as stressed. Therefore, it's easier to transpose to different keys if need be.

 

However, in rock, the guitar is/was king (I will debate this with anybody)! Lots of rock songs are written in the key of E and A (or their applicable dropped tuned keys) so keys, vocalists, or anyone else has to adjust to them.

 

So, when some guitarist is playing open chord/string stuff in Eb, I either transpose (a nightmare) or I tune down. Like I indicated, in the past, I just packed up the equipment and left. And I would agree with anyone, this probably makes me a bit limited as a musician.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by KPB:

Lee,

 

That's one thing (of many) that I like about jazz as opposed to rock.

 

With jazz guitar, you have an opportunity to play with a wider variety of instrumentalists so open chords/strings aren't as stressed. Therefore, it's easier to transpose to different keys if need be.

 

However, in rock, the guitar is/was king (I will debate this with anybody)! Lots of rock songs are written in the key of E and A (or their applicable dropped tuned keys) so keys, vocalists, or anyone else has to adjust to them.

 

So, when some guitarist is playing open chord/string stuff in Eb, I either transpose (a nightmare) or I tune down. Like I indicated, in the past, I just packed up the equipment and left. And I would agree with anyone, this probably makes me a bit limited as a musician.

Nope your not limited as I see it! You have valid reasons for your stand on those tunings and thats that! nobody has to agree its what you do. However DID we get by in standard tuning all these years I wonder? They do what they do ..you do what you do and I bet there are plenty of other musicians playing that feel the same way.

[Hardtail]

Lee,

 

Yeah. I guess my hard rule about A=440 comes from my time spent with the Mel Bay books as a kid.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by KPB:

Lee,

 

Yeah. I guess my hard rule about A=440 comes from my time spent with the Mel Bay books as a kid.

Yep comes from learning right and stayin right!

[Mass Effect]

What's the big deal about tuning down a 1/2 step? I like to use 10-46 strings but my hands cramp easy. Tuning down just that little bit really helps. Doesn't it make it a little easier on the singer as well?

 

Don't alot of bands record tuned to A=440 but then tune down a 1/2 step when playing live? I'm pretty sure U2 and Van Halen do.

 

Not trying to argue for or against, just curious where the steadfast opposition to it comes from.

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by Haga:

Not trying to argue for or against, just curious where the steadfast opposition to it comes from.

Most people are probably as flexible about the situation as you are. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Haga:

What's the big deal about tuning down a 1/2 step? I like to use 10-46 strings but my hands cramp easy. Tuning down just that little bit really helps. Doesn't it make it a little easier on the singer as well?

 

Don't alot of bands record tuned to A=440 but then tune down a 1/2 step when playing live? I'm pretty sure U2 and Van Halen do.

 

Not trying to argue for or against, just curious where the steadfast opposition to it comes from.

Ok fair question: I dont personally think that the guitar has the same dynamics tuned to different key. The string tensions are set up to be optimized at normal tuning and sustain is not maximized. Saddles and bone tension are not optimized to the design of the instrument. Your ear training is VERY important, it is important that you develop your ears to be able to relate immediately to other instruments like keyboards and horns. One thing here additionally and I am not trying to be a smart ass believe me but... if you hands are cramping in normal tuning you really need to practice more. You should be able to play from 9:00 untill 2:00 in the morning and have no cramping at all. Lastly I dont work with singers that need to have dropped tuning and I sure dont need dropped scale to do a good job on vocals.

[Gruupi]

I prefer to stay in standard tuning, but some of the classical pieces I play require dropping the Low E to D. It throws the whole guitar out of whack some, but it is a necessary evil. On electric it really throws the setup off to be switching tunings, its a real mess with a floating vibrato too. But for slide it sure comes in handy. I keep my SRV Strat tuned down to Eb because its sounds good that way. It certainly gives a whole different tone.

 

So I don't really hold anything against guitarists who exteriment with tunings if they are doing it with specific musical and tonal goals in mind. I am quite frankly to lazy to spend much time experimenting with lots of tunings, I barely can improvise in standard. I think for the most part you should learn standard tuning at least before you branch out to others, but this isn't really a rule. In fact music in general usually grows as a result of someone breaking rules.

 

Some guitarists look down on the new metal guys that tune low or make it so they can make lots of one finger chords, its not something I particularly want to do but if it gets them the sound they want then I say go for it. Do we look down on SRV or Duane Allman for using different tunings? Do we look down on Michael Hedges and Kaki King? Well some of us might but not me.

 

I would think a teacher would be doing a student a disservice if he didn't encourage a student to at least try standard tuning before branching out. It is a century or more old setup and it is very well thought out. Most guitars were designed to be setup and played in that tonal range and if you want to play traditional gutar music then it shouldn't be completly thrown out. But I have heard so many great pieces of guitar work where someone decided they needed to tune different, either for inspiration or technique.

 

Now if we are talking about someone getting up onstage and retuning one of my guitars, then I would freak out hehe. If you are going to play with other musicians it usually helps if everyone is coming from the same background, especialy in pickup situations. If you change tunings, you need to spend time with your bandmates working out voicings and tonal balance much more so than with the standard voicings that other musicians are used to dealing with.

[Dr. Ellwood]

I not only would encourage a student to NOT drop tuning, I would not have them as a student if they insisted. I would be doing them a disservice by encouraging them. The only exception to this is a student that already plays well and wants to learn slide technique on a properly setup instrument and even in that the open tuned instrument would be equivalent A based tuning relative to concert C.

[Gruupi]

Elwood, for good or bad, you are very much locked into your traditional way of thinking about music. I am sure your cover band gigs are rewarding to you musically and you make a little spending money at them. It would be hard for you to introduce to your audience or your bandmates something out of left field. I am glad you are satisfied with where you are, you are certainly more successfull than most guitar players in that you have a steady stream of gigs and can play the kind of music that you like.

 

I guess I am just much more apt to accept new ways (or old ways that I haven't heard before) than most people. It has caused conflicts with other bands I have been in that I am always changing my style and tone, but once I get something in my head, its hard for me to turn back. Playing cover songs well to responsive crowds is certainly great fun. I need to do more of it myself.

 

But I get much more meaningfull self satisfaction either writing songs or at least really trying to do my own thing on covers. While I still am pretty traditional in almost all my music and tones, I can see other folks that are much more creative than me getting really bored playing the status quo. Again, most great musical forms and great musicians/composers throughout history came about from someone taking a chance, either by hearing something new in their head and learning to express it or by outright rebelling against the standard idioms of the day.

 

Elwood, you sound way to much like the people we used to make us cringe when they would put down our rock and roll. They would say we aren't playing pretty sounds and that our amps were all distorted ( and to loud hehe, if I had a dollar for everytime my mom told me to turn down, I would have had a Les Paul in high school). We weren't singing, we were yelling. I guess if rock and roll becomes a style of music with a very narrow set of rules, then it will truly be dead. You HAVE to take chances and experiment unless you just want to be a librarian for some 40 year old music.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Hay sounds good Gruupi,yep I never had anyone tell me to turn down and when I was in high school I worked in a iron foundry at a typical temp. of around 109 degrees to get my first guitar. Ya playing loud hurts your ears..thats why I never did that.

[Mass Effect]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by Haga:

What's the big deal about tuning down a 1/2 step? I like to use 10-46 strings but my hands cramp easy. Tuning down just that little bit really helps. Doesn't it make it a little easier on the singer as well?

 

Don't alot of bands record tuned to A=440 but then tune down a 1/2 step when playing live? I'm pretty sure U2 and Van Halen do.

 

Not trying to argue for or against, just curious where the steadfast opposition to it comes from.

Ok fair question: I dont personally think that the guitar has the same dynamics tuned to different key. The string tensions are set up to be optimized at normal tuning and sustain is not maximized. Saddles and bone tension are not optimized to the design of the instrument. Your ear training is VERY important, it is important that you develop your ears to be able to relate immediately to other instruments like keyboards and horns. One thing here additionally and I am not trying to be a smart ass believe me but... if you hands are cramping in normal tuning you really need to practice more. You should be able to play from 9:00 untill 2:00 in the morning and have no cramping at all. Lastly I dont work with singers that need to have dropped tuning and I sure dont need dropped scale to do a good job on vocals.

Thanks for the advice. I usually tune to A=440 but I like to have a guitar tuned to Eb for playing along with CD's like SRV for example. I fail to see the harm in that. The fatigue in my hands gets better all the time. I took such a long break from guitar that I may as well be considered a beginner.

 

BTW, sorry to take your thread off on such a tangent. Your idea about talking with the audience between sets is a very nice gesture.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Haga, oh thats ok these threads always run all over the place anyway. On the laying off thing..well your hands may be a little rusty but in never really goes out of you mind! So you are right away half the way there. Keep sheddin that wood and you will be back fast!

[Pappy P]

This may be a double post. Sorry if it is.

 

Hey Ellwood:

 

Going back to the top of this topic. That's a pretty cool move. Most musicians I've seen are pretty standoffish (even the country folk).

 

All of un non-professionals appreciate the time with working professionals.

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

Elwood, for good or bad, you are very much locked into your traditional way of thinking about music. I am sure your cover band gigs are rewarding to you musically and you make a little spending money at them. It would be hard for you to introduce to your audience or your bandmates something out of left field. I am glad you are satisfied with where you are, you are certainly more successfull than most guitar players in that you have a steady stream of gigs and can play the kind of music that you like.

 

I guess I am just much more apt to accept new ways (or old ways that I haven't heard before) than most people. It has caused conflicts with other bands I have been in that I am always changing my style and tone, but once I get something in my head, its hard for me to turn back. Playing cover songs well to responsive crowds is certainly great fun. I need to do more of it myself.

 

But I get much more meaningfull self satisfaction either writing songs or at least really trying to do my own thing on covers. While I still am pretty traditional in almost all my music and tones, I can see other folks that are much more creative than me getting really bored playing the status quo. Again, most great musical forms and great musicians/composers throughout history came about from someone taking a chance, either by hearing something new in their head and learning to express it or by outright rebelling against the standard idioms of the day.

 

Elwood, you sound way to much like the people we used to make us cringe when they would put down our rock and roll. They would say we aren't playing pretty sounds and that our amps were all distorted ( and to loud hehe, if I had a dollar for everytime my mom told me to turn down, I would have had a Les Paul in high school). We weren't singing, we were yelling. I guess if rock and roll becomes a style of music with a very narrow set of rules, then it will truly be dead. You HAVE to take chances and experiment unless you just want to be a librarian for some 40 year old music.

I checked out your tunes Sunday and they are

beautiful,great playing

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Darklava:

Originally posted by Gruupi:

Elwood, for good or bad, you are very much locked into your traditional way of thinking about music. I am sure your cover band gigs are rewarding to you musically and you make a little spending money at them. It would be hard for you to introduce to your audience or your bandmates something out of left field. I am glad you are satisfied with where you are, you are certainly more successfull than most guitar players in that you have a steady stream of gigs and can play the kind of music that you like.

 

I guess I am just much more apt to accept new ways (or old ways that I haven't heard before) than most people. It has caused conflicts with other bands I have been in that I am always changing my style and tone, but once I get something in my head, its hard for me to turn back. Playing cover songs well to responsive crowds is certainly great fun. I need to do more of it myself.

 

But I get much more meaningfull self satisfaction either writing songs or at least really trying to do my own thing on covers. While I still am pretty traditional in almost all my music and tones, I can see other folks that are much more creative than me getting really bored playing the status quo. Again, most great musical forms and great musicians/composers throughout history came about from someone taking a chance, either by hearing something new in their head and learning to express it or by outright rebelling against the standard idioms of the day.

 

Elwood, you sound way to much like the people we used to make us cringe when they would put down our rock and roll. They would say we aren't playing pretty sounds and that our amps were all distorted ( and to loud hehe, if I had a dollar for everytime my mom told me to turn down, I would have had a Les Paul in high school). We weren't singing, we were yelling. I guess if rock and roll becomes a style of music with a very narrow set of rules, then it will truly be dead. You HAVE to take chances and experiment unless you just want to be a librarian for some 40 year old music.

I checked out your tunes Sunday and they are

beautiful,great playing

Hay thanks alot Lava! yep just some live stuff, our take on cover things but I think just enough of our own versions to make it interesting..thanks again!!