Why guitarists can't read

[pauldil]

Here's an excerpt from an article that I found very interesting. I had'nt thought about it this way before:

 

"Standard notation is just a graph of pitch against time, with the x or horizontal axis being time, and the y or vertical axis being pitch. Since the piano is a one-dimensional instrument, running from left to right in pitch, reading standard notation consists of simply doing a 90 degree rotation of the pitch axis. Notes that appear in higher vertical positions on the page are played further to the player's right. And the clusters of notes that form chords show the physical shape of the fingerings of the chords on the piano keyboard. The two clefs represent the left and right hands of the player. The accidentals (sharps and flats) show black keys. Apparently this rotation is easy enough to learn to do that schoolteachers and church keyboardists everywhere can do it quite well.

 

There is simply no intuitive relationship between the music staff and the guitar fingerboard. There are between 1 and 3 places on the guitar where any given note can be found (with some exceptions), and there are almost always several different fingerings for a sequence of notes. Guitar notation adds some extra symbols to help, putting notes played with the thumb with stems down and notes played with the fingers stems up. Small numbers net to the note indicating the string on which a note is played are usually added, as often are small letters p i m a to indicate which digit of the plucking hand is assigned to the note. But this makes the guitar notation more of an encryption to be decoded than a natural and pictorial representation of the playing of the music.

 

The wind instruments in the orchestra that also use the standard notation system are themselves one dimensional, and so unaffected by standard notation's limitations. The violin and viola and cello are somewhat 2-dimensional, although only 2 notes (called "double-stops") at a time can be played with the bow, as compared to the 4, 5 and 6 note chords guitarists play. I would venture a guess, not having ever learned to sight-read or having been in an orchestra, that string players have a noticeable harder time sight-reading non-linear (with double-stops) music than do the keyboard players. And the mathematical simplicity of the way violins, violas, cellos and basses are tuned make the adapting to standard notation simpler also. On those instruments, it is always the same music interval from one string to the next, making the geometry of playing the instrument more uniform. The tuning (and thus the geometry of fingerings) is irregular on the guitar."

 

Here's a link to the whole article:

 

Why guitarists can\'t read

 

Paul

[caprae]

Makes sense to me. I saw some sample video clips of a guy teaching jazz and he probably had a half dozen ways to finger one chord. I'm not 100% sure but I thought I read that you play an octave off on the guitar, which doesn't make sense but seems to stick in my mind.

[DIAMOND DUST]

Great article Paul. Most guitarists I know can't read. It's sad because there's so much to be gained from knowing how. Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar. Alot of people that play other instruments look down their nose at us guitar players because most of us don't read very well, if at all.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Great article Paul. Most guitarists I know can't read. It's sad because there's so much to be gained from knowing how. Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar. Alot of people that play other instruments look down their nose at us guitar players because most of us don't read very well, if at all.

Well, who cares about being a musician? I just want to make noise that I like; it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's music or not. If someone looks down on me because I can't read a form of notation that has no bearing on the instruments I choose to play, that's their problem. That would be like me saying that you suck because you can't understand Serbian or Korean.

[Rob Burton]

some musicians can read music, and they are horrible musicians, some cant read music at all, and they are incredible musicians. Some can read music and they are incredible musicians, some cant read and they are terrible musicians. That pretty much covers all musicians. That being said, i'd like to see the sorry loser musician thats going to actually look down on another just because he doesnt read music. Alot of us found no need to learn to read music, good ear training is a very effective tool.

Reading and writing music is actually loosing its purpose. Years ago when there was no means of recording a musicians work, the only way to document ones work was to write it out. Now that sound reproduction is here, physically writing out a song and for that matter learning to read it, aren't as important as they used to be. If you have a good trained ear, you can turn on a cd and listen and learn, and that I think is whats replacing the very old school act of learning to read and write music. But, this is coming from a guy with a well trained ear that doesnt need to learn to read music in order to learn a piece of music. Perhaps its good for the less fotunate ear to learn to read and write music.

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Great article Paul. Most guitarists I know can't read. It's sad because there's so much to be gained from knowing how. Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar. Alot of people that play other instruments look down their nose at us guitar players because most of us don't read very well, if at all.

Well, who cares about being a musician? I just want to make noise that I like; it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's music or not. If someone looks down on me because I can't read a form of notation that has no bearing on the instruments I choose to play, that's their problem. That would be like me saying that you suck because you can't understand Serbian or Korean.

It's called music for a fucking reason! If you want to make noise, bang some pans together. It's a language.

[webe123]

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Great article Paul. Most guitarists I know can't read. It's sad because there's so much to be gained from knowing how. Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar. Alot of people that play other instruments look down their nose at us guitar players because most of us don't read very well, if at all.

Well, who cares about being a musician? I just want to make noise that I like; it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's music or not. If someone looks down on me because I can't read a form of notation that has no bearing on the instruments I choose to play, that's their problem. That would be like me saying that you suck because you can't understand Serbian or Korean.

It's called music for a fucking reason! If you want to make noise, bang some pans together. It's a language.

You also sound like a stupid snob! Get real. Music can be played and enjoyed by ANYONE that is willing to learn to play in their own way. What gives you the right to say what is music and what isn't?

 

To me, I don't give a damn about you or anyone else looking down your nose at me because you think you are are so musically correct. Why don't YOU go and bang together some pie pans?

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by Rob Burton:

some musicians can read music, and they are horrible musicians, some cant read music at all, and they are incredible musicians. Some can read music and they are incredible musicians, some cant read and they are terrible musicians. That pretty much covers all musicians. That being said, i'd like to see the sorry loser musician thats going to actually look down on another just because he doesnt read music. Alot of us found no need to learn to read music, good ear training is a very effective tool.

Reading and writing music is actually loosing its purpose. Years ago when there was no means of recording a musicians work, the only way to document ones work was to write it out. Now that sound reproduction is here, physically writing out a song and for that matter learning to read it, aren't as important as they used to be. If you have a good trained ear, you can turn on a cd and listen and learn, and that I think is whats replacing the very old school act of learning to read and write music. But, this is coming from a guy with a well trained ear that doesnt need to learn to read music in order to learn a piece of music. Perhaps its good for the less fotunate ear to learn to read and write music.

That's cool. Stevie, Jimi, Clapton, page, And Jeff Beck don't read a lick, and they are some of the finest players ever. But for everyone of them there's a million other players that would gain ten years worth of experience from ten pages of written music.

[Lisert73]

Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar.

Diamond Dust, I have a slight problem with this statement that you made. First off I will say that I am not a guitar player or even a musician for that matter. But, I do read music. My husband does not read music, but he is a guitar player and a musician. So I guess I am missing your point(not really sure if you have one )

What exactly is the criteria to be a musician??? Does it have something to do with playing an instrument or reading music or is it both.

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by webe123:

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Great article Paul. Most guitarists I know can't read. It's sad because there's so much to be gained from knowing how. Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar. Alot of people that play other instruments look down their nose at us guitar players because most of us don't read very well, if at all.

Well, who cares about being a musician? I just want to make noise that I like; it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's music or not. If someone looks down on me because I can't read a form of notation that has no bearing on the instruments I choose to play, that's their problem. That would be like me saying that you suck because you can't understand Serbian or Korean.

It's called music for a fucking reason! If you want to make noise, bang some pans together. It's a language.

You also sound like a stupid snob! Get real. Music can be played and enjoyed by ANYONE that is willing to learn to play in their own way. What gives you the right to say what is music and what isn't?

 

To me, I don't give a damn about you or anyone else looking down your nose at me because you think you are are so musically correct. Why don't YOU go and bang together some pie pans?

---

When you learn to play a chord or a scale, someone must have took the time to document the order of those notes. Or did you just invent them yourself? There's a long history of musical notation. If your jammin on a pentatonic scale, or reading charts for a jazz gig, someone passed those down! Fuck you if your to lazy to learn something new.

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by Lisert73:

Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar.

Diamond Dust, I have a slight problem with this statement that you made. First off I will say that I am not a guitar player or even a musician for that matter. But, I do read music. My husband does not read music, but he is a guitar player and a musician. So I guess I am missing your point(not really sure if you have one )

What exactly is the criteria to be a musician??? Does it have something to do with playing an instrument or reading music or is it both.

Reading music is not in any way a prerequisite for being a great guitar player. But to call yourself a musician, should you not be able to speak the language of music even a little bit?

 

I play blues & rock. But should I stop trying to learn new shit because of that. Should Classical & jazz players be the only ones to read music? I'm far from a snob, but to many guitar players use those forms of music as a cop-out to learning to read.

[Dr. Ellwood]

To be really competitive in music you should read music and read it very well. You could never work as a guitarist without that skill. Im sure if you asked Beck or Clapton or anyother famous guitar player he or she would say they really wish they had taken the time to learn to read for guitar. Its not snobbery or it shouldnt be its just another skill to be mastered thats all. It is a huge advantage as a part of a band to be able to read charts and help to arrange material and its so much faster learning any piece of music. And its really fun to read and play material that was not originally written for guitar alone.

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by ellwood:

To be really competitive in music you should read music and read it very well. You could never work as a guitarist without that skill. Im sure if you asked Beck or Clapton or anyother famous guitar player he or she would say they really wish they had taken the time to learn to read for guitar. Its not snobbery or it shouldnt be its just another skill to be mastered thats all. It is a huge advantage as a part of a band to be able to read charts and help to arrange material and its so much faster learning any piece of music. And its really fun to read and play material that was not originally written for guitar alone.

That's all I was trying to say. Thanks man.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

Well, who cares about being a musician? I just want to make noise that I like; it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's music or not. If someone looks down on me because I can't read a form of notation that has no bearing on the instruments I choose to play, that's their problem. That would be like me saying that you suck because you can't understand Serbian or Korean.

It's called music for a fucking reason! If you want to make noise, bang some pans together. It's a language.

Music is like a grunt; everyone understands it, even if they don't speak the language. Why should I spend my valuable time to learn a language I'll never use? My time would be better spent focusing on the skills I will use. That might be experimenting with new gear, learning how to do two-handed tapping, or trying a different tuning. There are as many ways to play a song as there are players to play it. Who's to say that my way is the wrong one? Who's to say your way is right? There is no right and wrong in music, only what's right for me and what's wrong for me.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Your welcome DD...I long time ago quit trying to tell guys why they should learn to read. I have found a better way.. and I mentioned this before when this subject came along.. I show them.. my mom was a classically trained pianist.. and she kept her music some original compositions..in the cabinet next to the piano.. I would go over and take out a piece and play it on guitar for them and they loved it! and wanted to learn then.. or even better even at work I help guys learn guitar at lunch time..I ask them to bring in someting of their own and show them how fast it is to be able to play unfamiliar material because of reading for guitar.. and get to show them how to use the key signitures. It seems with them once I can get them to learn the names of the notes within a simple scale and can apply those note values to their instruments ..they get hooked or if I chart something they see as cool! even rock stuff they ARE HOOKED! its great to see that happen.. its like if you remember when your kids started to learn to read words.. it was like magic it seemed one minute they couldnt read and the next minute they could! its great ..to sum up ..SHOW THEM! how cool it really is

[Dr. Ellwood]

Blue Strat.. I guess your are right... of coarse you shoud use your playing time in the most productive way you can.. I know you will do well you seem to love the instrument like we all do here.. good luck with your playing

[Chipotle]

Well, who cares about being a musician? I just want to make noise that I like; it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's music or not. If someone looks down on me because I can't read a form of notation that has no bearing on the instruments I choose to play, that's their problem.[/QB]

I agree. Reading music is only relevent if you want to play someone else's ideas. The truest representation of your musical expression is what you play in the moment, in a musical context. I feel it is far more valuable to have a well trained ear, be a great listener, and have taste than to read some half-assed musical notation developed in the middle ages.

[picker]

I wish I had learned to read music, and I think I can say that not reading has hurt me by keeping me out of some gigs I wanted. But, I quit beating myself up for not learning to read after a couple I know who are classically trained, and hold advanced degrees in music, and are highly accomplished musicians in their own right, told me it wasn't all that big of a deal, because I play better than lot of folks who can read.

People who make their living with music could probably find more ways to earn money if they learned to read musical notation, and that might make their lives easier in areas outside of music. But if you don't have music in your soul and the burning desire to play, being able to read it won't put it there. The important part is playing the music, whether or not you can read notation.

[pauldil]

Originally posted by Blue Strat on this thread:

Why should I spend my valuable time to learn a language I'll never use?

Originally posted by Blue Strat on this thread:

I want to get proficient at reading music and I've always had a hard time of it. I've tried to learn it on my own several times, but I've always walked away in the end. This time I'm going to do it. So, any tips or tricks that you guys know of that helped you?

Blue, yesterday I was doing a search for something else and by chance came accross that old thread of yours, which was the whole reason why I even posted the article in the first place. Like you, I found reading difficult on the guitar and always thought it was just me. I thought the article explained, in a way I had not heard before, why reading is more difficult to do on guitar than on other instruments. I did not intend to cause yet another "reading vs. not reading" debate.

 

The fact that on piano "schoolteachers and church keyboardists everywhere can do it quite well" while a relatively small percentage of guitarists can read seems to support what he's saying about notation. I was hoping more for tips about how to improve reading skills on the guitar. I'm a at best only a fair reader myself, so I was hoping to hear how others may have had success in learning to read on the guitar

 

Yes, we all know that some of the world's greatest guitarists cannot read. But to me it seems like flawed logic to assume that not being able to read is the way to become a great guitarist. But it's also a misconception that being able to read music will make you a great guitarist. When I'm listening to a good player, the last thing on my mind is whether they can read or not. However, I can't think of a single guitarinst I've ever met who regrets knowing how to read music, while I've met tons of guitarists who regret not knowing how.

 

Originally posted by Chipotle:

Reading music is only relevent if you want to play someone else's ideas.

Chipotle, when I took an arranging class earlier this year, I had to write out MY ideas so that the rest of the band could play them.

 

I guess it all depends on your goals.

 

Paul

[Tedster]

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

That would be like me saying that you suck because you can't understand Serbian or Korean.

Or better yet...you suck because although you've learned to speak Korean fluently, you can't read it.

 

I can "read"...I mean, I know what I'm looking at...but, I have to take the time to figure it out. I can't just sit down with a piece of music and play it.

 

In the end...it's just a means to tell you what someone else wants you to play, which is very valid. There are people called "musicians" as well, who can sight-read VERY well, but they'd be dead in the water if they had to pick a tune out by ear. They wouldn't know where to start.

 

But in the end, to me, and YMMV...it has nothing to do with which form the information is conveyed to YOU, but rather how well you communicate it to the masses. Being able to read well is a tool...and a valid one...but that doesn't mean someone who doesn't read isn't a "musician".

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Tedster:

I can "read"...I mean, I know what I'm looking at...but, I have to take the time to figure it out. I can't just sit down with a piece of music and play it.

That's the way I am too. I can figure out what the notes are, I can read if it's a 1/4 note or an 1/8 note, but I can't do it fast. And, I've pretty much decided that I don't really need to.

 

Pauldil,

 

Yes, I'm full of contradictions. I'm not trying to make the point that a person should not learn to read music, just that it isn't necessary for me to learn to sight read. I can pickup licks and riffs fairly easy by ear, but trying to sit down with either tab or notation and learn a part is a pain in the ass for me. Tab is easier, but in the end I go for the path of least resistance.

[MILLO]

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Great article Paul. Most guitarists I know can't read. It's sad because there's so much to be gained from knowing how. Guitar players that say they don't need to read music to be a good player, are missing the point. It's about being a musician, not just a guy that plays the guitar. Alot of people that play other instruments look down their nose at us guitar players because most of us don't read very well, if at all.

Well, who cares about being a musician? I just want to make noise that I like; it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks it's music or not. If someone looks down on me because I can't read a form of notation that has no bearing on the instruments I choose to play, that's their problem. That would be like me saying that you suck because you can't understand Serbian or Korean.

This is not necessarily aimed at you, since you already stated you have an interest in learning. I think you brought an interesting point. ...here it goes:

 

He was talking about music, not Serbian or Korean. If Serbian were your language, it'd be great if you could learn how to read and write in it. You DO how to read and write English, don't you? Hasn't that helped you in life and in your guitar playing? It obviously has. If music is one of your languages, then it can only help you to write and read it.

 

Written language is a great way to organize your own ideas, as well as pass those ideas on to others. So is written music.

 

Music is meant to be played and listened to, not to be read or looked at --but reading it SHOULD certainly help musicians. Granted there are bad musicians who can read, but most GREAT musicians (I said 'musicians' not just 'rock and blues guitarists') have learned how to read, even if they don't use that knowledge while making a living out of playing music, including rock guitar greats EVH and Malmsteen.

 

Here's a suggestion: learn rhythm and pitch separate from each other. Think 'note-shape' = rhythm, and 'note'(placement of the notehead on the staff, in vertical terms) = pitch. Learn rhythm first, which will help with reading/writing strummed-chord rhythm parts, grooves, etc. Then when you start reading pitches, try either one of these approaches: 1)learn one string at a time, or 2)learn first the open strings... all of them or only a few of them at a time. When starting to read music, try to limit yourself to the first 4 frets, giving yourself only one choice for the location of each note.

 

When you look at a piece of music for the first time, try to tap the rhythm first. When you start reading, cue yourself as you would cue your band, make sure you can 'process' (read) more than one note at a time, and make sure your eyes are ahead of your fingers, so that nothing catches you by surprise. This is what you do when you read text, even if you don't notice.

 

Once you're getting more advanced, try to limit yourself, as an exercise, to read in 4-5 fret positions... for example, read a melody in the 1st position, then, if possible, read it in the 9th position and try to not play below the 9th fret or above the 12th or 13th fret.

 

Hope this helps.

[pauldil]

Originally posted by Blue Strat:

Pauldil,

 

Yes, I'm full of contradictions. I'm not trying to make the point that a person should not learn to read music, just that it isn't necessary for me to learn to sight read. I can pickup licks and riffs fairly easy by ear, but trying to sit down with either tab or notation and learn a part is a pain in the ass for me. Tab is easier, but in the end I go for the path of least resistance.

That's a really good point, Blue Strat. I think that centuries ago, if you wanted to preserve a composition exactly as you had written it, you had no choice but to write it out. You could pass it down by teaching it to someone "by ear", but then over time the piece would undoubtably change. With the advent of recording, that's not as necessary anymore. The fact that you can learn a piece note-for-note from a recording makes the need for reading less of a requirement for some players.

 

Millo, thanks for the great tips!

 

Paul

[Chipotle]

Originally posted by pauldil:

Originally posted by Chipotle:

Reading music is only relevent if you want to play someone else's ideas.

Chipotle, when I took an arranging class earlier this year, I had to write out MY ideas so that the rest of the band could play them.

 

I guess it all depends on your goals.

 

Paul

Yes, I've written charts for session players I had to hire, which was the most useful application I think I've ever had. I admit that reading/writing can come in handy occassionally. Obviously, there are situations where it is mandatory, but rarely have I been in them. I just feel that of the list of qualities that make one a great musician, reading capacity is pretty low.

[fantasticsound]

First, Pauldil, thanks for the article. I've tried to explain this very issue many times and few guitar players, let alone other musicians, get it.

 

Second, I hate this stupid arguement. I've had to read between the lines on over half the posts here to keep from getting incensed at responses from both sides of the issue.

 

Here's my take, and I'll attempt to leave no misunderstanings in my wake.

 

Reading music is a tool!

 

It is a very useful tool for learning new pieces without a recorded version of the music. It is a useful tool for learning music in orchestral or recording situations as a freelance musician. It's a useful tool for writing music.

 

So it's a useful tool. It's useful to anyone who learns to use it, and is not responsible for composers who are overly complex and virtually devoid of emotion writing music that reflects those personality traits. It simply makes it easier for them (and composers with emotion) to add complexity to their compositions.

 

But comparisons of spoken langauge and standard notation are far from perfect analogies.

 

Musicians have been creative since the dawn of time without a written, musical langauge. You would be accurate to say non-readers of standard are ignorant though it comes off as snobbish and carries the stigma of being stupid, though the word really just means absent knowledge, not stupid. And, as others have pointed out, many musicians take full advantage of the musical guidelines of theory without the ability to write down those rules. It takes nothing away from their ability to make beautiful music. Only their ability to read it from a page or write it down for someone else. Learning aurally or visually from watching another musician may not be the most efficient way to learn, but it is done every day by many musicians.

 

The real point is, learn to use tools that help you in your musical goals. That may or may not include reading and writing in standard notation. But stop bashing people for being readers or being non-readers. It demeans you, not the other person.

[Funk Jazz]

zappa wrote and read quite well, and used it to create music that would have been difficult if not impossible to express otherwise. i'm grateful for his ability, because it was a gift to us.

 

django wrote complicated music and played quite well, but couldn't read music or even his native french language for that matter. i'm grateful for his gifts, too.

 

i like to read Bach. it's beautiful, even stunning sometimes.

 

it is what it is - try not to get so upset over little things, fellas

[Tedster]

Where is that wacky piece of sheet music that had all sorts of goofy shit on it..."Trumpets buy pizza" or something. "Play REALLY FAST"...

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ok here's an idea! how about being able to do BOTH! read well and listen well...watch other players well and do it all! What a unique concept! most of the players I know that read well DO NOT have music stands or arrangements ON STAGE with them. No one would know that I read music well by listening or watching me play. Reading does not squelch your musical improvisational abilities it only enhances it. You make up a riff in your head.. then write it out in notation..its not difficult.

[pauldil]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

First, Pauldil, thanks for the article. I've tried to explain this very issue many times and few guitar players, let alone other musicians, get it.

Thanks Neil! I only posted the article because I felt it explained why reading is difficult on guitar, not whether it's good, bad, right or wrong.

 

Paul

[Dr. Ellwood]

Yes thanks Neil, it's just us little wee people trying to get our agendas in order. Thanks for the clarity.