The "Real" Deal about Nuclear, Bio, and Chem Attacks

[GuitarMan]

The "Real" Deal about Nuclear, Bio, and Chem Attacks By: SFC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner Mesa, AZ Unlimited reproduction and distribution is authorized. Just give me credit for my work, and, keep in context. Since the media has decided to scare everyone with predictions of chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf I decided to write a paper and keep things in their proper perspective. I am a retired military weapons, munitions, and training expert. Lesson number one: In the mid 1990's there were a series of nerve gas attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations. Given perfect conditions for an attack less than 10% of the people there were injured (the injured were better in a few hours) and only one percent of the injured died. 60 Minutes once had a fellow telling us that one drop of nerve gas could kill a thousand people, well he didn't tell you the thousand dead people per drop is theoretical. Drill Sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff was to keep the recruits awake in class (I know this because I was a Drill Sergeant too). Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff, it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!)! These weapons are about terror, if you remain calm, you will probably not die. This is far less scary than the media and their "Experts," make it sound. Chemical weapons are categorized as Nerve, Blood, Blister, and Incapacitating agents. Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians, they are not weapons of mass destruction. Instead, they are "Area denial", and terror weapons that don't destroy anything. When you leave the area you almost always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk; soldiers may have to stay put and sit through it and that's why they need all that spiffy gear. These are not gasses, they are vapors and/or air borne particles. The agent must be delivered in sufficient quantity to kill/injure, and that defines when/how it's used. Every day we have a morning and evening inversion where "stuff," suspended in the air gets pushed down. This inversion is why allergies (pollen) and air pollution are worst at these times of the day. So, a chemical attack will have it's best effect an hour or so either side of sunrise/sunset. Also, being vapors and airborne particles they are heavier than air so they will seek low places like ditches, basements and underground garages. This stuff won't work when it's freezing, it doesn't last when it's hot, and wind spreads it too thin - too fast. They've got to get this stuff on you, or, get you to inhale it for it to work. They also have to get the concentration of chemicals high enough to kill or wound you. Too little and it's nothing, too much and it's wasted. What I hope you've gathered by this point is that a chemical weapons attack that kills a lot of people is incredibly hard to do with military grade agents and equipment, so you can imagine how hard it will be for terrorists. The more you know about this stuff the more you realize how hard it is to use. We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house, plain old bug killer (like Raid) is a nerve agent. All nerve agents work the same way; they are cholinesterase inhibitors that mess up the signals your nervous system uses to make your body function. It can harm you if you get it on your skin but it works best if they can get you to inhale it. If you don't die in the first minute and you can leave the area you're probably gonna live. The military's antidote for all nerve agents is atropine and pralidoxime chloride. Neither one of these does anything to cure the nerve agent, they send your body into overdrive to keep you alive for five minutes, after that the agent is used up. Your best protection is fresh air and staying calm. Listed below are the symptoms for nerve agent poisoning. Sudden headache, Dimness of vision (someone you're looking at will have pinpointed pupils), Runny nose, Excessive saliva or drooling, Difficulty breathing, Tightness in chest, Nausea, Stomach cramps, Twitching of exposed skin where a liquid just got on you. If you are in public and you start experiencing these symptoms, first ask yourself, did anything out of the ordinary just happen, a loud pop, did someone spray something on the crowd? Are other people getting sick too? Is there an odor of new mown hay, green corn, something fruity, or camphor where it shouldn't be? If the answer is yes, then calmly (if you panic you breathe faster and inhale more air/poison) leave the area and head up wind, or, outside. Fresh air is the best "right now antidote". If you have a blob of liquid that looks like molasses or Kayro syrup on you; blot it or scrape it off and away from yourself with anything disposable. This stuff works based on your body weight, what a crop duster uses to kill bugs won't hurt you unless you stand there and breathe it in real deep, then lick the residue off the ground for while. Remember they have to do all the work, they have to get the concentration up and keep it up for several minutes while all you have to do is quit getting it on you/quit breathing it by putting space between you and the attack. Blood agents are cyanide or arsine which effect your blood's ability to provide oxygen to your tissue. The scenario for attack would be the same as nerve agent. Look for a pop or someone splashing/spraying something and folks around there getting woozy/falling down. Thetelltale smells are bitter almonds or garlic where it shouldn't be. Thesymptoms are blue lips, blue under the fingernails rapid breathing. The military's antidote is amyl nitride and just like nerve agent antidote it just keeps your body working for five minutes till the toxins are used up. Fresh air is the your best individual chance. Blister agents (distilled mustard) are so nasty that nobody wants to even handle it let alone use it. It's almost impossible to handle safely and may have delayed effect of up to 12 hours. The attack scenario is also limited to the things you'd see from other chemicals. If you do get large, painful blisters for no apparent reason, don't pop them, if you must, don't let the liquid from the blister get on any other area, the stuff just keeps on spreading. It's just as likely to harm the user as the target. Soap, water, sunshine, and fresh air are this stuff's enemy. Bottom line on chemical weapons (it's the same if they use industrial chemical spills); they are intended to make you panic, to terrorize you, to herd you like sheep to the wolves. If there is an attack, leave the area and go upwind, or to the sides of the wind stream. They have to get the stuff to you, and on you. You're more likely to be hurt by a drunk driver on any given day than be hurt by one of these attacks. Your odds get better if you leave the area. Soap, water, time, and fresh air really deal this stuff a knock-out-punch. Don't let fear of an isolated attack rule your life. The odds are really on your side. Nuclear bombs. These are the only weapons of mass destruction on earth. The effects of a nuclear bomb are heat, blast, EMP, and radiation. If you see a bright flash of light like the sun, where the sun isn't, fall to the ground! The heat will be over in a second. Then there will be two blast waves, one out going, and one on it's way back. Don't stand up to see what happened after the first wave; anything that's going to happen will have happened in two full minutes. These will be low yield devices and will not level whole cities. If you live through the heat, blast, and initial burst of radiation, you'll probably live for a very very long time. Radiation will not create fifty foot tall women, or giant ants and grass hoppers the size of tanks. Thesewill be at the most 1 kiloton bombs; that's the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT. Here's the real deal, flying debris and radiation will kill a lot of exposed (not all!) people within a half mile of the blast. Under perfect conditions this is about a half mile circle of death and destruction, but, when it's done it's done. EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse and it will fry every electronic device for a good distance, it's impossible to say what and how far but probably not over a couple of miles from ground zero is a good guess. Cars, cell phones, computers, ATMs, you name it, all will be out of order. There are lots of kinds of radiation, you only need to worry about three, the others you have lived with for years. You need to worry about "Ionizing radiation", these are little sub atomic particles that go whizzing along at the speed of light. They hit individual cells in your body, kill the nucleus and keep on going. That's how you get radiation poisoning, you have so many dead cells in your body that the decaying cells poison you. It's the same as people getting radiation treatments for cancer, only a bigger area gets radiated. The good news is you don't have to just sit there and take it, and there's lots you can do rather than panic. First; your skin will stop alpha particles, a page of a newspaper or your clothing will stop beta particles, you just gotta try and avoid inhaling dust that's contaminated with atoms that are emitting these things and you'll be generally safe from them. Gamma rays are particles that travel like rays (quantum physics makes my brain hurt) and they create the same damage as alpha and beta particles only they keep going and kill lots of cells as they go all the way through your body. It takes a lot to stop these things, lots of dense material, on the other hand it takes a lot of this to kill you. Your defense is as always to not panic. Basic hygiene and normal preparation are your friends. All canned or frozen food is safe to eat. The radiation poisoning will not effect plants so fruits and vegetables are OK if there's no dust on em (rinse em off if there is). If you don't have running water and you need to collect rain water or use water from wherever, just let it sit for thirty minutes and skim off the water gently from the top. The dust with the bad stuff in it will settle and the remaining water can be used for the toilet which will still work if you have a bucket of water to pour in the tank. Finally there's biological warfare. There's not much to cover here. Basic personal hygiene and sanitation will take you further than a million doctors. Wash your hands often, don't share drinks, food, sloppy kisses, etc., ... with strangers. Keep your garbage can with a tight lid on it, don't have standing water (like old buckets, ditches, or kiddie pools) laying around to allow mosquitoes breeding room. This stuff is carried by vectors, that is bugs, rodents, and contaminated material. If biological warfare is so easy as the TV makes it sound, why has Saddam Hussein spent twenty years, millions, and millions of dollars trying to get it right? If you're clean of person and home, you eat well and are active, you're gonna live. Overall preparation for any terrorist attack is the same as you'd take for a big storm. If you want a gas mask, fine, go get one. I know this stuff and I'm not getting one and I told my Mom not to bother with one either (how's that for confidence). We have a week's worth of cash, several days worth of canned goods and plenty of soap and water. We don't leave stuff out to attract bugs or rodents so we don't have them. These people can't conceive a nation this big with this much resources. These weapons are made to cause panic, terror, and to demoralize. If we don't run around like sheep, they won't use this stuff after they find out it's no fun. The government is going nuts over this stuff because they have to protect every inch of America. You've only gotta protect yourself, and by doing that, you help the country. Finally, there are millions of caveats to everything I wrote here and you can think up specific scenarios where my advice isn't the best. This letter is supposed to help the greatest number of people under the greatest number of situations. If you don't like my work, don't nit pick, just sit down and explain chemical, nuclear, and biological warfare in a document around three pages long yourself. This is how we the people of the United States can rob these people of their most desired goal, your terror. SFC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner Mesa, AZ Unlimited reproduction and distribution is authorized. Just give me credit for my work, and, keep in context. ===== A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif[/img]

[AmadMozart]

Thanks for a voice of reason. I for one am completely sick of the media aiding and the terrorist cause by trying to scare everyone to death in order to sell newspapers and advertising time. Little wonder whoever is sending the letters is targeting the media folks - what better way to get the exagerated headlines and frantic, breathless story of the horrible Anthrax!!!! I'll take Anthrax over planes crashing into large building any day of the week. Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by GuitarMan: [b] Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff, it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!)! [/b][/quote] This guy isn't an expert on bio/chemical warfare. He's full of crap. [b]These weapons are about terror, if you remain calm, you will probably not die. This is far less scary than the media and their "Experts," make it sound.[/b] In 1979 a few micrograms of a version of anthrax was accidentally released in Russia: 60+ of 90 or so people that got infected died. There are plenty of pictures around of how "less scary" the chemical weapons were that Iraq used on it's own people back in the 80's. As far as sarin and other nerve gas agents are concerned - read history about WWI. [b] Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians, they are not weapons of mass destruction. [/b] *Yet*. Hopefully never. [b]Instead, they are "Area denial", and terror weapons that don't destroy [/b] This guy probably received some training during the cold war on using shells to disperse chemical agents. If the anthrax that was released was anti-biotic resistent, there would be a lot of dead people in the news right now. [b]anything. When you leave the area you almost always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk; soldiers may have to stay put and sit through it and that's why they need all that spiffy gear.[/b] You need the "spiffy gear" because some agents are colorless, and are carried by the wind. If you know of the threat, you don't want to be sitting around in you pajamas. Nerve gas released at a large sporting event or some such would be devastating. That Aum Shinri Shining Path were inept doesn't mean it's not dangerous. [b]These are not gasses, they are vapors and/or air borne particles. The agent must be delivered in sufficient quantity to kill/injure, and that [/b] Some require extreamly minute amounts. What happened in Japan amounted to "old" technology. The stuff Russia was cooking up during the Cold War is a different story altogether, and we don't know what Iraq and Libya has created - or what any of the 20 or so assorted anti-U.S. terrorist organizations possess. [b]This stuff won't work when it's freezing, it doesn't last when it's hot, [/b] This guy is dangerous. [b]What I hope you've gathered by this point is that a chemical weapons attack that kills a lot of people is incredibly hard to do with military grade agents and equipment, so you can imagine how hard it will be for terrorists. The more you know about this stuff the more you realize how hard it is to use.[/b] It's difficult in a warfield with an enemy that's prepared, with pre-Cold War chemical agents. It's easy outside of that. [b]We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house, plain old bug killer (like Raid) is a nerve agent. [/b] This is ridiculous. This guy is spewing propaganda for Al Qaeda. [b]The military's antidote for all nerve agents is atropine and pralidoxime chloride. Neither one of these does anything to cure the nerve agent, they send your body into overdrive to keep you alive for five minutes,[/b] EXACTLY. [b]your body weight, what a crop duster uses to kill bugs won't hurt you unless you stand there and breathe it in real deep, then lick the residue [/b] It will kill you real good if it's spraying a Russian post-1980 chemical agent. [b]Nuclear bombs. These are the only weapons of mass destruction on earth. [/b] BS. [b]The effects of a nuclear bomb are heat, blast, EMP, and radiation. If [/b] Oh really? [b]These will be low yield devices and will not level whole cities.[/b] Don't plan on that. [b]Radiation will not create fifty foot tall women, or giant ants and grass hoppers the size of tanks.[/b] No, you'll just have renal failure, your teeth will fall out, at best you'll get tumors like most of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki survivors had. This guy is the King Bozo. [b] Thesewill be at the most 1 kiloton bombs; that's the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT.[b] Unless it's one of the weapons that "disappeared" from various republics when the Soviet Union fell... [b]EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse and it will fry every electronic device for a good distance, it's impossible to say what and how far but probably not over a couple of miles from ground zero is a good guess. [/b] Actually, an EMP bomb might be a lot easier to make. [b]They hit individual cells in your body, kill the nucleus and keep on going. That's how you get radiation poisoning, you have so many dead cells [/b] This is... sigh. [b]If biological warfare is so easy as the TV makes it sound, why has Saddam Hussein spent twenty years, millions, and millions of dollars trying to get it right? [/b] A) Hussein knows that if he were to use them we'd level Iraq, pronto. B) Because it's easier than high-yield nuclear weapons. C) Because *he* doesn't have to make use of them. Senator Kerry may have breathed something that came out of an Iraqi facility, we don't know. Genetic technology has come leaps and bounds from where it was 20 years ago. Again - this guy is a putz, or a vassal of bin Laden/Hussein/Khadaffi/whoever. [b]If you're clean of person and home, you eat well and are active, you're gonna live.[/b] No, I take that back, he just sounds like a good 'ol bo redneck. [b]This letter is supposed to help the greatest number of people under the greatest number of situations. If you don't like my work, don't nit pick, [/b] This letter can only serve to disarm people from being vigilant. There's nothing to nit pick here, it's wrong in a grandiose way. The Soviets made a LOT of scary stuff during the Cold War. We don't know where some of it is. Genetic technology is such that we don't know *what* Hussein, or whoever, has come up with. There's no way of knowing for certain. We should behave accordingly. It's amazing how quickly the mood shifts here in America. The first week after the 11th this guy would have been strung up for writing this crap; now, people are settling back into complacency. I'm afraid they're going to continue to up the ante, which they can do in hundreds of myriad ways. We should be as cautious and careful as ever. ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Tedster]

Geez, I dunno Chip...I don't think it's going to keep people from being vigilant. I think vigilance is important. But it's also important to consider the likelihood of an attack in your corner of the globe, so... Someone living in a small Nebraska town (or even a larger Nebraska town) is not as likely to be attacked as someone in Washington, New York, Chicago, or L.A. That said...if you do experience an attack and do what this guy says, you may be dead anyway, or you may not. I know about Chlorine, Phosgene, and some of the other agents used in WWI. I read the story about the shocked Germans who found like 10,000 dead French soldiers in the trenches after the first attack, amazed and scared of what they'd just unleashed. I just read the article as "be vigilant, don't panic". If you panic you're screwed. You may be screwed anyway, but you're certainly screwed if you panic.

[tomjonesmusic]

Hey Chip - You forgot the last part of that sentence you quoted... "If you don't like my work, don't nit pick, just sit down and explain chemical, nuclear, and biological warfare in a document around three pages long yourself." Well, where is your three pages of credible information? This sounds like logical and reasonable information to me...

[joegerardi]

[quote][b]We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house, plain old bug killer (like Raid) is a nerve agent.[/b][/quote] This is factually correct. The first nerve agents were discovered by people trying to create insecticides, and they are actually neuro toxins.

[batman forgot his cape]

"This guy isn't an expert on bio/chemical warfare. He's full of crap." Aw...c'mon, Chimp.....you've gone on one again....just when I thought it was safe to go back into the MPBBS!! Full marks to Geetarplayer for trying to calm down our paranoia (I think he should get out more though...either that or he's a 160wpm typist).... I would think that most of us on theses boards are far more likely to be damaged by exposure to soul-destroying "music" and its hinterland than any of this other shite..... There's no such animal as "an expert on bio/chemical warfare"...it's an unpredictable, messy business which is the last resort of the desperate and deranged..... We have more to fear from the unhinged and demented musical terrorists who try to hit us with their inept, scrofulous racket, cack-handedly disguised as "music".......... Just my 2 Afghani valueless cents.... P.S. no insult intended, Chip, it's just good-natured banter....by the way.. how's the missis? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] A

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by GuitarMan: [b] what a crop duster uses to kill bugs won't hurt you unless you stand there and breathe it in real deep, then lick the residue off the ground for while. [/b][/quote] Oh? [quote] http://www.nrdc.org/health/kids/farm/chap1.asp says: The American Association of Poison Control Centers reported 97,278 calls about pesticide poisonings in 1996. Half of the reported poisonings involved children under six years of age.[18] Occupational pesticide poisonings are required to be reported in California, and there are approximately 1,500 reported cases per year.[19], [20] Efforts to extrapolate to national occupational pesticide poisonings result in estimates of anywhere between 10,000 and 40,000 physician-diagnosed pesticide illnesses and injuries annually among agricultural workers.[21] These estimates do not include children of agricultural workers. Mild signs of acute pesticide poisoning, such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, or wheezing are often not recognized as being potentially linked to pesticide toxicity. Rashes and other skin reactions are another major manifestation of pesticide toxicity that is often misdiagnosed.[22] Even Dr. Lynn Goldman, Assistant Administrator of the Office of Prevention, Pesticides and Toxic Substances of the U.S. EPA, has publicly admitted, "Medical problems caused by pesticide exposure are often overlooked or misdiagnosed by health care providers."[23] Even severe pesticide poisoning is frequently misdiagnosed. In one review of the medical records of 20 severely pesticide-poisoned infants and children transferred to a major medical center from other hospitals, 16 of the 20 children had been wrongly diagnosed at the time of the transfer. Diagnoses of the children’s symptoms included brain hemorrhage, head trauma, diabetic acidosis, severe bacterial gastroenteritis, pneumonia, and whooping cough, although all of the children later turned out to have pesticide poisoning.[24] In this series, five of the children, all infants, were poisoned after home application of a pesticide. Another child was poisoned after mowing a lawn that had recently been sprayed with an organophosphate. Although these cases did not involve farm children, they demonstrate that all children can be overexposed to pesticides in their home environment. Among infants, only a small dose is required to have potentially devastating health consequences. Furthermore, there is some evidence from animal studies that undernourished individuals are more vulnerable to poisoning by organophosphates, implying that poor and undernourished children may be at greater risk.[25] Chronic Impacts "Twenty-two years that I have been working in the fields, I’ve seen more illnesses, more children being born ill, more families that miss work because every day they have more problems, headaches. Sometimes their children are sick and they have to miss work. . . . We live in a depression. We don’t know if it’s because of the chemicals." -- Laura Caballero, Lideres Campesinas (Salinas, CA Public Meeting July 25, 1996) Chronic effects of pesticide exposure may include adverse effects on neurological function, cancer, reproductive harm, reduced growth and development, and birth defects. Much of the evidence of chronic effects is based on studies of adult workers who are exposed to a mixture of chemicals every day, making it difficult to pinpoint specific pesticides. The effects of individual pesticides during specific periods of fetal life, infancy, and early development have been studied in laboratory animals. Little research on the chronic effects of pesticides has been done directly on children, and even less on farm children. Neurological Effects In adults, exposures to insecticides and herbicides have been reported to confer an approximately fourfold increased risk of early-onset Parkinson’s disease.[26], [27] Other long-term neurological problems, particularly shortened attention span and reduced coordination, have been reported in adults overexposed to organophosphate pesticides.[28] Although such studies have not been done in human children, animal studies have revealed that some pesticides appear to target the developing brain during the critical period of cell division, thereby leading to lasting behavioral aberrations.[29], [30] Not only do organophosphate pesticides interfere with a critical nerve-impulse transmitter, but they also can permanently change the number of receptors in the brain for this neurotransmitter. This mechanism may explain the subtle, permanent effects observed in animals.[31] Subtle neurological effects may also occur in human children. A recent study compared preschool children in two farming communities in Mexico, one with heavy pesticide use and one with little or no pesticide use. The children living in the area with heavy pesticide use had strikingly impaired hand-eye coordination, decreased physical stamina, short-term memory impairment, and difficulty drawing, compared with the less exposed children. Furthermore, observers of the exposed children noticed increased aggressive and anti-social behavior compared to their less exposed counterparts.[32] Studies have shown that lead, a known neurotoxicant, has lasting effects on attention span, intelligence, and behavior. Infants and children are more susceptible to the toxic effects of lead than are adults, probably because their brains are still developing.[33]–[35] Similarly, it appears that infants and children are also more susceptible to other neurotoxicants, including pesticides.[/quote] Do a google search on health effects caused by pesticides if you want more - there are billions of documents out there that list negative health effects from pesticide use. By this guy's reason 97, 278 americans must have "stood there and breathed it in real deep, then licked the residue off the ground for while" in 1996. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] Where is this guy pulling his info from? The ACME Pesticide Corporation's PR campaign? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] This message has been edited by rold on 10-19-2001 at 12:09 AM

[fuzzbucket]

CHIP YOU MAY BE RIGHT, IT MIGHT BE PART OF BIN LADENS MASTER PLAN TO POST MISINFO AT MUSICPLAYER.COM CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOUR CREDENTIALS ARE?

[Steve LeBlanc]

I think the guy's document is pretty reasonable...yeah all of these chemicals, etc. etc. are really bad but the mass hysteria has gone too far. We do need to calm down and look at things with perspective...he may not be 100% accurate in everything he's saying but the overall point of 'CALM DOWN' is a good one.

[AmadMozart]

[quote]Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]I think the guy's document is pretty reasonable...yeah all of these chemicals, etc. etc. are really bad but the mass hysteria has gone too far. We do need to calm down and look at things with perspective...he may not be 100% accurate in everything he's saying but the overall point of 'CALM DOWN' is a good one.[/b][/quote] Amen and amen....I cannot endorse the media scare blitz over the recent Anthrax episodes. This is total irresponsibility for the most part - I will give Dan Rather some credit - I saw him being interviewed tonight on Larry King and he essentially said the same thing - the Fear is more dangerous than the Anthrax. And hey....we are all on the same side over here...kinda, sorta, in an American sort of way [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Cheers, Mark ------------------ http://www.broadjam.com/artistprofile/artistindex.asp?artistID=936 or listen at... http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/294/mark_coming_project.html

[rold]

Yeah, the fear mongering is ridiculous. I swear - if the terrorists want to achieve their objective, they just have to throw some money the media's way - they'll take care of the rest. I wonder if mainstream media can actually be investigated under terrorism? They're doing a damn good job of it.

[dansouth]

So far, the U.S. has suffered one anthrax casualty, possibly because since the guy was the first, he may not have been properly diagnosed early on. Meanwhile, about 400,000 Americans will die from smoking related diseases this year. I have yet to see a team of guys in HAZMAT suits scouring office building in search of tobacco residue. My temporary office is in the building directly across the street from building that houses the NBC news offices that were attacked. I'm two block from ABC news and Fox news, and nine blocks from the CBS complex. It's unnerving, but I'm certain that a toxic level of anthrax it not going to creep out of those buildings and into my system. I have a much higher probability of dying from food poisoning (e. coli, salmonela, etc.), and that probably is no higher today than it was a year ago. I have some concerns about opening an infected package or letter, but the chance of a random person receiving such a letter seems astronomically small unless you handle the mail for a famous person or organization. People who do are employing special precautions. Smallpox will be a nightmare if it arrives on American soil, but there isn't very much of the stuff in existence. Regarding insecticide poisoning, remember that people spray this stuff in their houses and then return to the house - or don't leave at all. I can tell you from experience that that stuff gets into EVERYTHING. All food has to be tossed unless you store it elsewhere during bombing. All plates and silver have to be washed. I ate a bite of cereal from a bowl that I forgot to wash, and my tongue went numb. Wisely, I discarded the rest of the cereal. I can see how people get exposure to insecticides; they're widely used domestic products. In New York, they've been spraying for mosquitos the last two summers (since West Nile Virus arrived). No one has died from the spraying, and very few people have died from the disease. Asthma and heart conditions exacerbated by pollution kill a lot of people every year, as does the flu. We accept this. We don't obsess over the possiblity. Hopefully, mass spraying of anthrax will not occur, but even if it does, the disease can be treated. The flu, on the other hand, is a virus, so antibiotics are of no use against it. The flu frightens me more than anthrax does. If your body can't fight the flu, you're shit out of luck.

[gufti]

The media scaremongering over here in the UK is awful, and we haven't even had a single case of Anthrax. And to top it all, Sky is showing two Hollywood movie premieres on Sunday - both of them about lethal virus spreading and killing thousands of people. Are these guys for real? Have they got no shame?

[Chip McDonald]

Interesting. No, I'm not going to post 3 pages of "information". Comparing nerve gas to bug spray, "how to survive a nuclear attack", "just wash the chemical agent off" is misinformation, and downplays the seriousness of the topic. Plain anthrax is not something considered a top-flight bio-weapon. The anthrax released luckily was not engineered to be antibiotic resistant. The people responsible for doing this, and the events of Sept. 11, obviously do not have qualms about mass murder. We have been very lucky so far. *Things would be very different if this had been genetically modified anthrax!*. It was ridiculous to play down the dangers of chemical and biological weapons prior to this situation, and it's completely absurd to cast it in the manner that this guy portrays it in now. It is not scare mongering; it's reality. Don't take my word or this guy's word for it. If you have the attitude it's not something in the mass-destruction category of thinking, then you won't have any problems reading about what one Kanatjan Alibekov has to say about the subject. Look his name up - and his credentials. Not that there are not plenty of sources of verifiably informed people that will say the same thing. This was a *brush* with bio-terrorism, and putting "information" out that it's not something to be concerned about, that it's not potentially much more than what we've already experienced, is distortion. Apparently you don't think so, and seem to take some sort of glee in it. Strange, but I suppose it falls into the "if I can't see it it isn't there" category. I hope you guys are right. See you later. This message has been edited by Chip McDonald on 10-19-2001 at 05:23 AM

[aeon]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]In 1979 a few micrograms of a version of anthrax was accidentally released in Russia: 60+ of 90 or so people that got infected died.[/b][/quote] True Chip, but it is also true that nearly 6000 people tested positive for exposure. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]As far as sarin and other nerve gas agents are concerned - read history about WWI.[/b][/quote] Neither Sarin or any other nerve agent existed at the time of WWI. Sarin was invented in 1938, and first used that year by the Italians against Ethiopians. The principal agents used in WWI were chlorine, phosgene, and mustards. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]If the anthrax that was released was anti-biotic resistent, there would be a lot of dead people in the news right now.[/b][/quote] There would be a few - a number equal to the number currently infected. I would not call that a lot, though I would be saddened by their passing. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]Nerve gas released at a large sporting event or some such would be devastating.[/b][/quote] While I understand the toxicity of these agents, I also know that all of the currently-available organophosphate nerve agents for which there is public data are heavy, semi-viscous liquids that would have to be delivered from a height to affect people in the stands. Nerve gas, in the best of conditions, is a vapor...something that would be difficult to disperse in an arena without a height-delivered bomblet. I am not saying it would not be devastating...but it would be very difficult to pull off. Compromising a municipal water supply would be much easier and more effective. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]The stuff Russia was cooking up during the Cold War is a different story altogether, and we don't know what Iraq and Libya has created - or what any of the 20 or so assorted anti-U.S. terrorist organizations possess.[/b][/quote] The height of the Russian nerve development was VR-55, which is very similar the the US's VX...a potent organophosphate agent with high persistance. Both were modeled on British work undertaken to develop an alternative to DDT. Given that the US was the world's most advanced biochem researcher and developer, it is safe to say that we have a very good idea of what other nations and terrorist groups would have access to, or be able to develop. Also, the basic chemistry is well-documented...no "new" developments have occured that are radical departures from the classic models. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b][i]We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house, plain old bug killer (like Raid) is a nerve agent.[/i][/b] [b]This is ridiculous. This guy is spewing propaganda for Al Qaeda.[/b][/quote] Chip, that is not ridiculous. The base chemistry in bug spray is organophosphate compounds. They are nerve agents. He did not misstate or spew propaganda there. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]The Soviets made a LOT of scary stuff during the Cold War. We don't know where some of it is.[/b][/quote] The same can be said of the USA, and our stuff was comparatively scarier. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]This letter can only serve to disarm people from being vigilant. There's nothing to nit pick here, it's wrong in a grandiose way.[/b][/quote] I think he is too relaxed in tone, but at the same time he was not wrong in a grandiose way, and with all due respect neither were your statements entirely correct. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]I hope you guys are right.[/b][/quote] I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I have done extensive research on this topic. If there is something to be worried about, it would be smallpox. This message has been edited by aeon@mediaone.net on 10-19-2001 at 07:52 AM

[Tedster]

Kind of a roundabout aside... I was crop dusted in 1977. A buddy and me were driving through Arizona at night along I-10. There was a weird light in the distance getting closer. When it flew overhead, I could hear the engine and make out a cloud falling around us. We had had the windows open, not expecting anything like that to happen. We were enveloped in an unpleasantly thick cloud of pesticide. Not a pleasant experience...but, fortunately, we drove out of it soon and suffered no ill after-effects.

[Botch.]

Chip, I'm no expert either but I have been in the Air Force for 16 years, and every Chem/Bio/Nuc breifing I've received agrees with what Guitarman wrote. I've also worked as a Nuclear Weapons Safety engineer for four years, and his nuclear info is also correct. As far as the pesticide arguments presented here, there's a big difference between one-time and life-time exposure. Just my 2 scents.

[good morning]

Good job, Guitarman. Thanks for taking the time to post this. It's everything I've ever heard in briefings and studied in school. The chicken little approach you counter is opinionated and uninformed. Of course people aren't going to survive a nuclear blast at ground zero; nor will they just walk away with only some pesky hives after taking a chem bath. Again, thanks for the rationality.

[Kris]

Chip, you might as well keep that space suit and gas mask on forever cause you're screwed!

[Master Zap]

Uh, Chip, all due respect and stuff but, this guy is in all essence correct. Sure, he underplays it, but essentially, all info is correct. I dont mind you disagreeing with the guy, but for example, your "complaint" about his example of neural agents being bug spray (which is totally 100% correct - they are) and your subsequent quote of this being "bullshit" REALLY diminishes the value of anything you say. Its not bullshit its just simple fact. /Z

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by aeon@mediaone.net: [b] True Chip, but it is also true that nearly 6000 people tested positive for exposure.[/b][/quote] All it took was for some - a very minute amount - to escape through a vent at a weapons facility. It wasn't even deliberate. That's not dangerous???? [b]Neither Sarin or any other nerve agent existed at the time of WWI. Sarin was invented in 1938, and first used that year by the Italians against Ethiopians. The principal agents used in WWI were chlorine, phosgene, and mustards. [/b] I'm missing something. What you say is true, but again, the point is that - *wasn't nerve gas effective during the WWI*???? [b]There would be a few - a number equal to the number currently infected. I would not call that a lot, though I would be saddened by their passing.[/b] I'm missing something. [b]Nerve gas, in the best of conditions, is a vapor...something that would be difficult to disperse in an arena without a height-delivered bomblet.[/b] Uhm, again.... WWI???? [b]The height of the Russian nerve development was VR-55, [/b] The height of their developement is unknown by us. [b]Given that the US was the world's most advanced biochem researcher and developer, it is safe to say that we have a very good idea of what other nations and terrorist groups would have access to, or be able to develop. Also, the basic chemistry is well-documented...no "new" developments have occured that are radical departures from the classic models.[/b] I'm not just talking chemical here you know. [b]Chip, that is not ridiculous. The base chemistry in bug spray is organophosphate compounds. They are nerve agents. He did not misstate or spew propaganda there.[/b] Obviously the point isn't whether their base makeup is similar, but that obviously nerve gas, from a practical real world standpoint, IS NOT BUG SPRAY. Telling people "oh, it's like bug spray, you'll be ok" is ridiculous. Again, IT WAS HIGHLY EFFECTIVE IN WWI. [b]The same can be said of the USA, and our stuff was comparatively scarier.[/b] The U.S. did not collapse as a nation after the Cold War. We did not have researchers scattering about the planet, working for terrorists. We did not have weapons disappearing. Additionally, we don't have a bioweapon program, or chemical as far as I know and we're not supposed to have them in our weapons inventory. Not the same as the old Soviet Union. [b]If there is something to be worried about, it would be smallpox.[/b] Er, right.....???? This is such a surreal thing. I can't believe I'm having to argue that nerve gas, bio-weapons, are very dangerous and shouldn't be dismissed so casually. Bug spray???? I suppose Ebola is kind of like getting a bad cold.... ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[GuitarMan]

Seems like some people are thinking I wrote that piece, not so! It was written by : SFC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner Mesa, AZ Although I was a member of a nuclear launch crew back in the 70's and the undergound sites did have extensive ABC (atomic,biological,chemical) filtering to protect the crews...and this even though we were deep underground. I think all the debate on this has been great and very informative, which I believe is the point... and if you are informed (and realistic) you should also have no trouble remaining calm... if you ever are in the middle of an emergency one of your greatest recources is the ability to remain calm! In the meantime raising your bloodpressure threatens your life in a more immediate way!

[good morning]

Chip said: "This is such a surreal thing. I can't believe I'm having to argue that nerve gas, bio-weapons, are very dangerous and shouldn't be dismissed so casually. Bug spray???? I suppose Ebola is kind of like getting a bad cold...." Is it fun for you to make strawman arguments and win? Nobody here has said nerve gas, etc. are NOT dangerous. And certainly no one has suggested Ebola is "like getting a bad cold." You say this kind of crap and knock it down. Well, good for you, I guess.

[Anderton]

The problem is that this is not a digital world, where either 100% effective agents are delivered with 100% precision, or bumbling stone age terrorists blow themselves up by accident. I think we will experience ALL the scenarios presented here to some degree: misfires that cause few problems and CAN be solved with a bath and fresh air, and devastaing attacks that kills thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. This is why it make sense to be scared shitless, but conduct your normal life. You have no idea whether you'll be one of the lucky ones or the unlucky ones. But you never knew that anyway, even in the best of times. This is all such a mess.

[joegerardi]

[quote] originally posted by Chip:[b] I'm missing something. What you say is true, but again, the point is that - *wasn't nerve gas effective during the WWI*????[/b][/quote] Yes they were, but SFC Thomas covered this in his article: [quote][b]That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk; soldiers may have to stay put and sit through it and that's why they need all that spiffy gear.[/b][/quote] And of those, Mustard gas was the worst, mainly because it was the most widely used. (Trivia note here: The actor Walter Brennen lost all his teeth due to Mustard Gas attacks in WW1.)

[aeon]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]I'm missing something. What you say is true, but again, the point is that - *wasn't nerve gas effective during the WWI*????[/b][/quote] No, it was not, because [i]no nerve gas was used in WWI.[/i] That is what you are missing. The first nerve gases were developed in 1936, Sarin in 1938. The principal agents used in WWI were chlorine, phosgene, and mustards. [i]No nerve agents were used. Chlorine, phosgene, mustards and lewisite are not nerve agents.[/i] [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]Additionally, we don't have a bioweapon program, or chemical as far as I know and we're not supposed to have them in our weapons inventory.[/b][/quote] Chip, the US had and has a research and development facility at Ft. Detrick, MD. We violated peace treaties just like the Soviets did. The US began dismantling munitions based on Agent VX in 1990. [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]I can't believe I'm having to argue that nerve gas, bio-weapons, are very dangerous and shouldn't be dismissed so casually.[/b][/quote] You are perhaps having to argue the point for a couple of reasons: [list] [*]The relatively vast amount of public information available on biochem agents themselves and the history of their use supports most all of what was purported in SFC Red Thomas’ article. [*]After having been made aware of your error, you continue to present an argument based on non-factual information. With all due respect, this calls into question your credibility. [/list]

[lwilliam]

Sorry, I don't think being scared shitless will enhance my survival ability at all. Knowing what IS hype, what IS fact, and what ISN'T puts things into perspective. From there, one can decide the level of precautions appropriate to the actual danger. But cower in fear - NEVER! The more attention I have on "being afraid", the less likely I am to conduct a "normal" life. I believe that my chances of winning the lottery are about 1000:1 better than contracting Anthrax. I'm much more likely to get hit by a car while crossing the street than to get hit with a nuclear weapon or get a spore up my nose. Uh, I also find it a bit preposterous that Bin Laden and others would want our fears calmed by such an article. He wants us (as do ALL terrorists) crippled in fear - don't play into it...even a little. Avoid the obvious (don't sniff strange envelopes [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]), but my life is going on without fear. Fear won't prevent my being infected and I'll use common sense to conduct my daily activities. Wouldn't it be ironic if America (and the rest of the coalition) managed to INCREASE our GNP as a result of this - THAT would be a better goal: do more, not LESS. The terrorists want us contracting, unproductive, and immobilized in fear, and I, for one, am TOTALLY unwilling to let them win that battle. ------------------ Larry W.

[Master Zap]

Sadly I am beginning to doubt Chip's reading comprehension [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] /Z

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Master Zap: [b] neural agents being bug spray (which is totally 100% correct - they are) and your subsequent quote of this being "bullshit" REALLY diminishes the value of anything you say. Its not bullshit its just simple fact. /Z[/b][/quote] So, a howitzer is really just a bb gun? ------------------ [b]New and Improved Music Soon:[/b] http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald