A historical mistake will be made

[Rick K.]

[quote]Originally posted by Mossberg: [b]Don't believe everything that Bush tells you.[/b][/quote]Who should we believe then? Give me an alternative. Rick

[alcohol]

Why would you need someone to believe? Why can't you read enough to be informed? However, if you need someone to believe try John F Kerry, Senator from Massachusetts. A way better alternative to Bush.

[Philter]

The point is that depending on the circumstances, the negative results of our actions outweigh the benefits of removing Saddam. And many of us feel that as the situtation stands, the negative results are going to be worse than the positive ones. If Bush et al hadn't completely blown the diplomacy, this might have turned out much better. But they blew it, and here we are with a horrible mess on our hands.

[Mossberg]

[quote]Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Mossberg: [b]Don't believe everything that Bush tells you.[/b][/quote]Who should we believe then? Give me an alternative. Rick[/b][/quote]Think about it. This country was built on lies and bullshit. Christopher Columbus discovering America? lol Every single day we live, the US Constitution is contradicted in huge ways by our leaders. Bush and many others said back on September 11th, that to fight terrorism, we shouldn't let it affect the way we live. Oh yeah, but why has shit changed everywhere you go. Don't make me say airport rapings (I mean security checks). Don't make the mistake of believing that all of a sudden the leaders of this country always tell the truth. I'm not telling you who you should believe. But I'm telling you not to take every word someone says for gold. Don't just take someones every word without question. No one human is incapable of being misleading or untruthful. Is Bush human? Yes. Then he is included in this I have to go but I might post later if needed.

[Wow]

I believe in the Easter bunny(no offense bunny) I believe I can fly I believe I will leave now.

[Turd Polisher]

[quote]Originally posted by C.M.: [b]I believe in the Easter bunny(no offense bunny) I believe I can fly I believe I will leave now.[/b][/quote]Good, now show us how consistent you can be!

[Jotown]

Jeff Tascam Guy wrote: [quote]There are few direct parallels between Hussein and Hitler, from the aspect of defending sovereign nations from foreign invasion (since we're not still battling Iraq over the invasion of Kuwait like we were in Desert Storm). Regardless of every other factor you may apply toward the President, one that hasn't been discussed is the possibility that he fears that decades from now, people would think of the "historical mistake" was not stepping in to stop Hussein now, when he has the chance. Talk about a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario! [/quote]One thing that you should consider is that in the world, there are far more people out there who believe that Bush is acting more like Hitler than Hussien is. Especially in light of his war declaration. Sadly these observations are all relative.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

[quote]Originally posted by Jotown: [b]One thing that you should consider is that in the world, there are far more people out there who believe that Bush is acting more like Hitler than Hussien is. Especially in light of his war declaration. Sadly these observations are all relative.[/b][/quote]Right. That's my point. It would be convenient to be able to play out the outcome of these decisions by getting in a time machine and witnessing the outcomes in 20 years, in 50 years. Robert Heinlein has some cool speculative fiction in that regard. But we can't. So, we project and predict and decide based on the info we have now, which can easily be a) wrong and/or b) colored by multiple agenda. Again...glad I'm not the leader of the world. Any world. - Jeff

[mike-x]

I sit here in England looking at what's going on both in the world at large and here on this thread. When George Snr instigated the 'Gulf War' I sat at home glued to the TV wondering if 'this is it?' (I think u all know what I mean). Months went by, the war finished and I actually ended up in Florida for 18 months. I initially met with questions from Americans about how they had been perceived in all this and, after all the intital paranoia, I found a real empathy with my new friends. After all We'd all gone into this together and done a pretty good job. I think it brought our cultures that little bit closer. I think this thread has become very heated - and with some justification - but I would like to comment as one who has lived in the USA and Europe (England). What is happening now scares the living s*** out of me. I was 22 back whan George Snr did his thing - I was with girlfriend but no responsibilities. Now I have a 4yr Boy and a 6 month Boy and a wife and I want them to grow at least as old as me! I cannot stand the thought of a conflict within the next 48 hours - BUT I am sure that if it doesn't happen then the door will be opened to worse stuff than 4 planes being used as Weapons of Mass Destruction. I hope that the confidence of our leaders that "the campaign will be short" is justified. I hope that the technology they are relying on is solid. I hope they hit their targets without destroying families just like my family. Sorry if I'm rambling but there is no clear cut way of looking at this. I want dictators and Terrorists out. I also want peace. However I think the two are mutually exclusive. We have been dealing in England with terrorists since the 1960's and have become a little bit anaesthetised to it all. September 11 brought home a new kind of bravado to us all but we stil wait for letter and nail bombs every Christmas and find Christmas shopping in our Capital a slightly unnerving experience. I think the French are making a valid point and it is their right to be obstructive (I actually thought they were right in condemning military action -until I thought of some arsehole detonating a dirty bomb somewhere near my children and then I thought George and Tony might be on the right road) I think that as creative people we are all more sensitive to emotion than the "suits". I would appeal to all of you here to not get into major bickering because although we all have the right to free speech I think we all really want the same thing - which is a safe world for ourselves and our future generations. God be with our Soldiers as they prepare for rough times ahead, and lets not be too down on other countries for not WHOLEHEARTEDLY supporting this latest chain of events. If France is unsupportive then so be it. PERIOD. They have had their SH*T to deal with over the years. They should not be made to feel like outcasts - they are just abstainers. I think they are slightly spineless but they seem to believe in democracy and the United Nations and we should not berate them for their opinion. We will go into this campaign with the USA and some other brave countries and we hope that he outcome is for the good of humanity - BUT when the dust settles - whatever George W says about the United Nations - we will all need to come together to ensure stability in the world Peace Mike

[Henchman]

Let's face it. No matter what anybody thinks, the US is going to war. Saddam is a madman. Bush is an Idiot. But given the choice, I'll take the latter. I'm sure there's all sorts of backroom deals that have/will be made that will make some people alot of money. But that happens with every war doesn't it. I marched in many peace marches when i was living in Holland. But this is one case where something needs to be done. Also, what about what Israel has been doing. When is the UN going to do something about that? I find the UN completely fucking useless, and waste of money. A bunch of old fucks doing alot of talking and debating.

[Bush Brain]

Nice post Mike. My thoughts are similar, except in that I place a great deal of blame for the failure of diplomacy on Bush and to some extent Blair. This breakdown in international unity could have been avoided by more skillful and thoughtful diplomats. Our elected (somewhat) leaders have failed to live up to the occasion in a comprehensive way. I suppose now we'll be forced to make do with what we've got, and punish them appropriately in the next elections.

[Wow]

[quote]Butt Rifler [/quote]Oh, I see , you are a tuff guy behind your second identity. Who are you? GT3? Bunny? Chip? Hell, I dont know and I dont care. Keep the flames coming. Yahooooo!

[steadyb]

[quote]Originally posted by hrn: [b]Is there anyone who really think this will solve anything?[/b][/quote]Other than the United States? Yes. Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Britain, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, South Korea, Spain, Turkey and Uzbekistan.

[GZsound]

Nice to hear all the support for the U.N. on this forum. Especially now that Libia has been appointed in charge of human rights violations and Iran is in charge of war crimes or some such. Let's put Saddam in charge of womens rights and then you all will be happy to have the U.N. run the world. And by the way, France is now saying they would love to jump in if there is evidence of bio/chem weapons. That took them all of two days.. Diplomacy failed in Iraq after 12 years. The U.N. proved how little power they have to do anything when millions were being killed in Rowanda and the U.N. troops RAN AWAY. Do any of you seriously believe we are in this alone? Do any of you believe the U.N. can do anything to stop genocide in a country? Do any of you have any proof of the U.N. ever stopping it? It is one thing to have opinions but to make totally unsupported statements with no factual basis is not responsible, especially in light of the fact that those of you spouting such nonsense are the first to start name calling and start launching personal attacks. We have the exact same situation in Afghanastan that we have in Iraq. Where are the liberal attacks about how that worked out? Did the U.N. help in Afghanastan? Did the terrorist attacks increase on America? Did the world end? I swear the political tunnel vision exhibited by some of you guys is downright scary. Who gives a rats ass if Saddam is like Hitler or not? Saddam has killed millions of his own people..fact. Saddam tortures and murders anyone that disagrees with his policys..fact. He has used chemical weapons on civilian populations...fact. He has attacked Kuwait and Iran...fact. He has murdered members of his own family that don't agree with him....fact. He has paid families of suicide bombers in Israel $25,000...fact. To compare him in any way with our president is silly. The Iraqi ambassador made statements you all would appreciate today. He stated that most of the American people, their cities and universities, are with Iraq against America. I hope you all are happy with the extra force we now need because of the false sense of hope you have given this butcher and his family. I hope one serviceman does not loose his life because you have given Saddam hope he can defeat us. Useful Idiots..

[Salyphus]

GZsound, are you really interested in my opinion about how things turned out in Afganistan? Here's a hint: the president who was installed by the US is an ex(?) Unocal employee. The situation there is all about building an oil pipeline to supply oil to the east. Guess who is building that pipeline? Not Bridas, after what the World Bank did to Argentina....nope, UNOCAL.

[Skip_dup1]

[quote]Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc: [b] [img]http://www.jamfree.com/images/dolphins200.jpg[/img][/b][/quote]how, exactly, did you DO that?

[Bush Brain]

GZ's got his shit all mixed up and around. It's tunnel vision to keep talking like it's a two-way choice. It's more complicated than that. Iraq's nothing like Afghanistan or Libia or Rowonda, wherever the fuck that is. I can't even take it, you gotta learn to spell the name of a country if you want to talk about it.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b]Another way of looking at is... that he made sure the US would not watch on impotently as the UN, while in agreement with the US and its allies about the threat, did nothing... but play into Saddam's hand.[/b][/quote]..and another way of looking at it would be that Grover of Sesame Street is secretely married to Britney Spears and live in Quebec, which is why the French aren't towing the line. The U.N. is the only globally accepted organization capable of acting as a liason between national factions that have a dispute. The *ONLY* organization. Things were moving forward as was procedurally set out by the *UN*, NOT the U.S.. It's a matter of perspective to cast things as "the UN being taken advantage of", you can couch it however you want, but relative to the *UN* - it was the *UN* that arranged 1441, not under the precept that the U.S. would, at some juncture down the road, decide "time is up" and what was to be done about it. [b]Or another way of looking at it... Forced Chirac to declare that France would NEVER approve the use of force against Iraq, and that France [/b] France wasn't forced into anything, they have no repercussions for choosing to be against it. [b]Laden's so busy looking over his shoulder, hoping he doesn't get captured like his top aides... that if he DOES chuckle... he doesn't do it too long or too loud.[/b] That's supposition, you have no way of knowing. [b]the corner to the new reality of US self defence in the world. Shown the US will not rule out direct action against threats after diplomacy has been proven unsuccessful. [/b] I would agree except for 2 things: it's a rule not applied evenly across the board, and 2) King George had a window of about 2 weeks there after 9/11 where he could have put the U.S. military *anywhere* on the planet with the full support of *everybody*, but he wavered. Coming into Iraq after not getting Bin Laden - after bragging about how we were going to get Bin Laden - and suddenly digging up an issue about WMD - and issue that HAS BEEN AROUND SINCE HIS DAD WAS PRESIDENT - points to political and personal motives. That's how the world sees it. [b]The markets seem to disagree with your view, [/b] Today isn't tomorrow. [b]it appears the traders in stocks, oil, gold ALL were positively affected by today's news that FINALLY a DECISION has been made.[/b] Let's see what happens next week, eh? [b] We'll have to wait and see how well the markets react to developments.[/b] What I'm talking about is not the stock market. Laisseiz faire is NOT a reality on the planet and the EU is and China is quite prepared to stomp the U.S.'s butt economically, but hasn't because of inter-related political ties amongst all of the players. China wouldn't pressure the U.S. because then they'd be pressured by France; France wouldn't pressure the U.S. because then they'd be pressured by Germany.. .. and on and on. That's going away. If the EU decides to say "hey... we're going to get our textiles from China exclusively now", the U.S. won't have any pull. If China decides to import more cars from the EU than the U.S., and tells the U.S. "too bad" - the U.S. will not have any pull. France decides to sell more arms to terrorists - the U.S. can't push another trading partner of France to try to squelch it. Which in the long run can make the U.S. stronger, the U.S. *should* be able to be self-sufficient. It would be a shame, though, and outside the U.S. the world will continue about it's business. [b]it is... You KNOW that virutally no military leader WANTS war. We argue about it... they have to order their men to go do it. [/b] Yeah, no military wants war. Hates it. Can't stand it. Sure. [b]Ummmm... I guess there's simply more than one way to look at things. Isn't there? :wave: [/b] Sigh.

[Gtoledo3]

[quote]Originally posted by C.M.: [b] [quote]Butt Rifler [/quote]Oh, I see , you are a tuff guy behind your second identity. Who are you? GT3? Bunny? Chip? Hell, I dont know and I dont care. Keep the flames coming. Yahooooo![/b][/quote]Oh please! :D "Butt Rifler"? I couldn't look myself in the mirror in the morning. Nah, I'll confess that twice I used the screen name "unclesam" but that was a long time ago. I realized it was pretty stupid and pointless. There's nothing I have to say that I have to hide behing anything for. :)

[Turd Polisher]

[quote]Originally posted by C.M.: [b] [quote]Butt Rifler [/quote]Oh, I see , you are a tuff guy behind your second identity. Who are you? GT3? Bunny? Chip? Hell, I dont know and I dont care. Keep the flames coming. Yahooooo![/b][/quote]Don't be such a baby, there really are that many of us. You can take it, girlie.

[Danochick]

It is amazing to see the many opinions regarding this subject. Let me first say, I am not making my statement with the "attitude" that I am "right". I have been proven "wrong" on many occassions. (Just ask my hubby!) :D I try to look at all things with an open mind. I feel that I have done this also with the war situation. These statements are what truly baffle me though... "We now are going to have terroist attacks because we have threatened Saddam with military action because of his non-compliance to the resolution."(for 12 yrs) hmmm.. Haven't we already been attacked quite a few times by terroists in the US and abroad? No, as far as I know, we haven't caught Bin Ladin yet... but we have rounded up quite a few of his evil doers. Hey, at least we are making progress. As far as I know, we are still looking for his sorry a**...? Evil can hide in many places. "Why are we after Saddam when we are supposed to be after Bin Ladin"?... Again, I believe we are still looking for his sorry evil a**. In the meantime, I do believe that 9/11 opened up eyes to the US and leaders of other countries in regards to motives/hatred/agenda for future power/their build up of weapons [b]OF MASS DESTRUCTION[/b]! [b]RED FLAG HERE.....SADDAM HUSSIAN!![/b] We have tried diplomacy that failed, now we are going to act upon his not complying to the resolution. Should we not do [b]anything[/b] but keep "asking" him to comply? I for one, think I would feel [b]safer[/b] if he was out of power and/or a grain of sand. IMO, we should have acted alot sooner than we did! But I feel that Bush/US went way beyond call of duty trying to "please" and make some kind of agreement with the UN. Hell, better yet, we should not do a damn thing, while Saddam keeps building weapons [b] OF MASS DESTRUCTION[/b] :rolleyes: If we keep our fingers crossed, maybe in the future, he won't get pissed at the US and other countries and take out his aggressions. :confused: "Our actions are going to bring far worse attacks now" and we have started a "vicious cycle" of hatred. I could be wrong...but didn't Saddam already hate the US and other countries. He wants world power...doesn't he? "This war is over oil" period. Oh geez, this one I really don't get. [b]YES[/b] getting some control of the oil "over there" would be "icing on the cake". But I think that our bigger motive here is to get this "INSANE" IDIOT out of leadership. "There are many others right behind Saddam & Bin Ladin to "take their place". [b]YES[/b] I do believe so! And the future is a different scenario than it used to be. But "act NOW" and think of the evil we can dispose of before our children/next generation take our places as citizens of the US and other countries. "Look what happened during Vietnam War" [b]YES[/b] It was horrible! And I can only imagine the hell that our men and women suffered. It was a mistake. But I do believe that mistakes are made...therefore, we learn from them. I know I do on a personal basis. Bush was not President at the time. I personally know vets from Vietnam war, and they are SO scarred and to date..all vets from previous wars are IMO, not treated with respect that they deserve. I again, am not saying that my opinion is right..or wrong. JUST MY OPINION. All I know at this point, is that I am going to keep praying for our President, our country, our allies, our military men/women willing to die for our freedom. They are the TRUE heroes!! I get chills to even think of how they must feel at this time. I pray for our future and our childrens future. Whatever comes from this all, whether our country made the right/wrong move....really doesn't make a "hill of beans". We should be thankful that we can speak our minds on this forum freely and able to discuss our fears, anger, sadness...emotions. It would be nice to at least see those in forum, treat each other with respect in regards to comments. Good thing some of you don't have your hand on the "BUTTON".... Now I think I feel better now... No... wait a minute, I think I have more to say....lol. :D Peace to Us All! :wave:

[Anderton]

Hi everyone, I've closed this thread, please continue your comments in the Official Iraq/War/Bush thread. This is being done to avoid duplication over multiple threads. Thank you.