CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]Didn't the Koresh guys shoot at some of the Feds who had laid siege? Nope, I don't condone Waco. But it was a pretty tense situation and I think a gamble was taken (i.e., Koresh would let the women and children go) that Reno lost. That just demonstrates the dangers of trying to figure out what a madman will do.[/b][/quote]Did you do anything to stop Waco? Are you doing anything to stop the Iraqi war? If you answer yes or no to both, then your consistent. If it's yes to one and no to the other... why? An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydog Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by CarmenC: Your canadian, aren't you... I just learned some canadian today.. " Throw me down the stairs, my shoes you!"[/quote]No doot aboot it! [img]http://members.rogers.com/dirtydog/icon_fu.gif[/img] I need a donut... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prague Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Liberals hate Christians, so the Davidians don't matter. "One nation, under clouds, ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by dirtydog: [b] [quote]Originally posted by CarmenC: Your canadian, aren't you... I just learned some canadian today.. " Throw me down the stairs, my shoes you!"[/quote]No doot aboot it! [img]http://members.rogers.com/dirtydog/icon_fu.gif[/img] I need a donut... :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]Did I get through and hit a nerve while you were in between Molsons, darling...? :rolleyes: :bor: "I don't know, me?" said some canadian. [img]http://www.lucianne.com/routine/images/02-25-03.jpg[/img] An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by paostby: [b]Liberals hate Christians, so the Davidians don't matter. "One nation, under clouds, ..."[/b][/quote]Sadly, that rings true... :( An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush Brain Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Carmen hates everybody, including himself. He is worthy of our pity. :( "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Waco, and Ruby Ridge, are indictments of an entrenched faction in the government at the time obsessed with the notion of increasing federal power. It was a test to see if certain "systems" would work, certain "ideas", because they knew they were going to dismantle the militias as a result (which they did). It was/is an oppressive *conservative* faction that instigated it, not "liberals". The BATF director on the scene should be in jail for murder as far as I'm concerned - he was the guy calling the shots, the whole thing was a "let me see if I can shine here so I can move up the ladder" situation. Reno mishandled it by not stepping in, and letting that bozo turn it into a massacre. Somewhere there's video footage of Koresh being interviewed as he jogged through down a week or so before they mounted their assault. If they had wanted Koresh they could have just picked him up well before hand. Instead, they got to try out some "new tactics" - the 24 hour noise barrage/psychological warfare routine, choppers with IR, urban assault moves like tear gas insertion via tank, all sorts of "fun" things. The government has been testing a variety of urban tactics, "emergency" government reorganization, social manipulation strategies, since Reagan's people came in and cleaned house. The mistake - the BIG mistake the stupid miltias made - is in casting it into a left/right argument when that's just a ruse. Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Bush Brain: [b]Carmen hates everybody, including himself. He is worthy of our pity. :( [/b][/quote]I love you.... :rolleyes: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Drawing an analogy between The Branch Davidians and Iraq, in any way, is an unfathomable stretch, to me. What is the point of arguing something like this? Let's just take any two actions of the federal government one in the past, one in the present and examine them from a liberal/conservative viewpoint. If ONLY the world were that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote] It was/is an oppressive *conservative* faction that instigated it, not "liberals" [/quote]I'll use your logic, who was running the country at the time? the LIBERALS. BILL CLINTON WILL GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS ONE OF THE WORST PRESIDENTS EVER. He was impeached, he was kicked out of the Bar association , he committed perjury , and on and on and on...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]Drawing an analogy between The Branch Davidians and Iraq, in any way, is an unfathomable stretch, to me. What is the point of arguing something like this? Let's just take any two actions of the federal government one in the past, one in the present and examine them from a liberal/conservative viewpoint. If ONLY the world were that simple.[/b][/quote]That's your contribution to the discussion... it's too simple? The point is the hipocrasy of the peaceniks... The Democrats are allowed to kill their own citizens without objection from the so-called "peace protestors", but Bush tries to defend our nation from terrorists and WMD, and the peaceniks are out worldwide to stop him? Here's a little more about the peaceniks........ Hate-America Leftists' Lead the Appeasement Movement Wes Vernon, NewsMax.com Thursday, Feb. 27, 2003 See part one of series, "Useful Idiots: Marxists Exploit the Appeasement Movement." WASHINGTON America-haters ran the recent appeasement demonstrations. These longtime enemies of America are collaborating with radical Islamists who want to kill Americans. That fact belies the mainstream media's portrayal of "soccer moms," veterans, Democrats, Republicans, and other ordinary Americans as reflecting grassroots anger at President Bushs policies in Iraq. Workers World Party (WWP), which organized the demonstrations, is ideologically aligned with the Stalinist nation of North Korea. This tiny Marxist-Leninist group is behind A.N.S.W.E.R. (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism), with which former LBJ Attorney General Ramsey Clark is involved. David Horowitz, author of The Hate America Left, tells NewsMax this organization has been around since the late 1950s. He believes the majority of the demonstrators were manipulated by hard-line Marxists, not by Mom and Pop America. Herbert Romerstein, who spent years of his professional life as a security official in the legislative and executive branches of the government, says WWP provided the people who stuffed the envelopes, made the arrangements, dealt with the logistics, provided the transportation and, most importantly, controlled who got to speak at the rallies. Censorship Anyone not supporting the propaganda purposes of Marxist dogma was not allowed to speak to the crowd. If somebody hadnt done it for them [the demonstrators], they wouldnt be out there, he told NewsMax. The Workers World provides the opportunities for these people to get out and demonstrate. Reed Irvines Accuracy in Media, in a paper bluntly titled Communists Run Anti-War Movement, reports that the networks and metropolitan dailies ignored communist banners prominently displayed at the site of the Washington demonstration. The usual suspects were there: Louis Farrakhans Nation of Islam, Progressive Labor Party, Freedom Road Socialist Organization, World Socialist Website, Cuba Solidarity, Spartacist League, Revolutionary Communist Party USA, and radical Muslim and pro-Palestinian organizations. When ex-communist Horowitz considers these groups and others that participated, he concludes in his NewsMax interview that the vast majority of demonstrators have supported Americas enemies for years, and in some case their parents before them. 'The Fascistic Left' This is the fascistic left, Horowitz adds, anti-Semitic, anti-American, and dedicated to establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat. There are useful idiots or dupes who have fronted for this nations enemies. Ramsey Clark is a perennial in this role. (It was learned Tuesday that CBS was granted its Dan Rather interview with Saddam Hussein after Rathers good friend Clark put in a good word for him with the Iraqi dictator.) Romerstein says Clark has collaborated with WWP activists John Catalinotto and Sarah Flounders in their apologia for Slobadon Milosevic. Horowitz identifies United for Peace and Justice as a part of the coalition that was behind the New York demonstration. That group, he says, is headed by Leslie Cagan, a '60s Stalinist ... pro-Castro, of course. She ran an organization that did the propaganda for the Cuban gulag. Not a Bit 'Liberal' Adds ex-communist Horowitz in our interview: Its time for conservatives to stop calling these people liberals. They are leftists, and they are hate-America leftists. "And when your country is under attack, as ours is, you cant have a peace movement. You can only have an appeasement movement, and a movement to betray your own country. :wave: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 What I want to know is [b]WHY, WHY, WHY[/b] anyone here even responds to threads like this? In comparison to the ideas presented in this thread and others like it, Rush Limbaugh's ideas appear super intelligent. Maybe that's the intention, but I suspect, no I know, the "cause" or "causes" ostensibly represented in these threads, would be better served by silence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Sorry, I needed the post count. [img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:H6YxrY_6LAoC:www.monkeytime.org/Site%2520Images/shrug.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOT Bolt Rifles Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]What I want to know is [b]WHY, WHY, WHY[/b] anyone here even responds to threads like this? In comparison to the ideas presented in this thread and others like it, Rush Limbaugh's ideas appear super intelligent. Maybe that's the intention, but I suspect, no I know, the "cause" or "causes" ostensibly represented in these threads, would be better served by silence.[/b][/quote]Have you ever actually listened to Limbaugh? "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -- John Adams "I am a senior member, and thereby entilted to all the privileges and rights accorded said status" -- NBR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisDude Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 I agree with Chip. I was going to say something about Ruby Ridge... maybe even Jonestown. CIA was all up in that. But what do I know, I'm just a bozo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 Have you ever considered a very fine set of encyclopaedias? [img]http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:qAsRXc99cwcC:www.povn.com/tropwen/kb/99-2000/9.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 posted by Bolt Rifles or whatever your name is today: [quote]Have you ever actually listened to Limbaugh? [/quote]Yes I have. A few years ago the FM portion of my radio went out and instead of fixing it I switched over to AM and started listening to talk radio, including Limbaugh for probably a year or so. IMO, Limbaugh is a huckster who many times plays devil's advocate in order to beef up his ratings. He's a very talented man who knows his business, BUT, I don't believe he is sincere about all the ideas he presents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]What I want to know is [b]WHY, WHY, WHY[/b] anyone here even responds to threads like this? In comparison to the ideas presented in this thread and others like it, Rush Limbaugh's ideas appear super intelligent. Maybe that's the intention, but I suspect, no I know, the "cause" or "causes" ostensibly represented in these threads, would be better served by silence.[/b][/quote]An excellent and thoughtful rebuttal of the subject matter... :rolleyes: typical. Ignore the content of the discussion and brand the poster stupid. I'm impressed... Hey look, Tipper cops a feel.... [img]http://www.dribbleglass.com/subpages/strange/consolation.jpg[/img] :wave: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]Waco, and Ruby Ridge, are indictments of an entrenched faction in the government at the time obsessed with the notion of increasing federal power. It was a test to see if certain "systems" would work, certain "ideas", because they knew they were going to dismantle the militias as a result (which they did). It was/is an oppressive *conservative* faction that instigated it, not "liberals". The BATF director on the scene should be in jail for murder as far as I'm concerned - he was the guy calling the shots, the whole thing was a "let me see if I can shine here so I can move up the ladder" situation. Reno mishandled it by not stepping in, and letting that bozo turn it into a massacre. Somewhere there's video footage of Koresh being interviewed as he jogged through down a week or so before they mounted their assault. If they had wanted Koresh they could have just picked him up well before hand. Instead, they got to try out some "new tactics" - the 24 hour noise barrage/psychological warfare routine, choppers with IR, urban assault moves like tear gas insertion via tank, all sorts of "fun" things. The government has been testing a variety of urban tactics, "emergency" government reorganization, social manipulation strategies, since Reagan's people came in and cleaned house. The mistake - the BIG mistake the stupid miltias made - is in casting it into a left/right argument when that's just a ruse.[/b][/quote]Is this all your opinion? An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 1, 2003 Author Share Posted March 1, 2003 This person expresses the point I was trying to make better than I. Lifted from another great board... "Wasn't it Sheryl Crow who entertained the troops in Bosnia? Oh yeah that was you wasn't it Sheryl! You remember Bosnia don't you? That was where the U.S. sent troops and dropped bombs without a UN resolution wasn't it? Oh, I see it was OK because a Democrat was President at that time. So, that's what this is really about, Partisanship not Patriotism. Bush versus Clinton. The left versus the right. Democrat versus Republican. November 5th, 2002 really was painful wasn't it? So, now you need a political football to kick around and what better football than a war in Iraq. Details on that Bosnia thing right. After all that was Billy Boy and we loved him. Of course the vast majority of the servicemen and women loathed BJ Billy. Which is why he signed a Presidential order to remove polling places from miltary bases prior to the 2000 elections. In the end it was around 86% of the military personnel that voted for Bush instead of Gore. But, it's truly heartwarming to hear people like Simmons, Crow, Clooney, Sarandon, Morello etc. express their deep concern for our soldiers safety and well being in Iraq. The truth is they hope we lose lots of them there. Because they can make lots of partisan hay out of their deaths. I'm supposed to believe that Morello and his RATM ilk give two shits about American soldiers? What a joke!" "Going to war without the French, is like goin' deer hunting without an accordion." :wave: [url=http://www.velvetrope.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=282582&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&sess=1f4e5687012c5817f719270790a6d462]saw it here..[/url] An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 posted by CarmenC: [quote]An excellent and thoughtful rebuttal of the subject matter... [/quote]I wasn't trying to rebut your so called subject matter, I was trying to deny it's existence. I don't see any correlation between people not demonstrating about the actions taken against a small group of American religious fanatics and people demonstrating against war with a Middle Eastern country. The only relationship that exists there is in your mind. It is another feeble attempt to color everything with your liberal/conservative slant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydog Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by CarmenC: [b]Did I get through and hit a nerve while you were in between Molsons, darling...? :rolleyes: :bor: "I don't know, me?" said some canadian.[/b][/quote]Youre killing me here! No, you did not hit a nerve. In fact, I found your response rather amusing. Looks like I hit a nerve with you concerning my desperate comment. Its funny how my comment (like many others), was intended to call you on your weak attempt to draw out the Iraq debate on a tangent that really doesnt make sense. And with that, you felt it necessary to try and insult me on a cultural level. I really have no desire to argue these political issues with you. Even if my views differ from yours, it is clear that I would have a snowballs chance in hell in getting through to you. Your style of debating will not change my mind either. I have read all of your posts on the various political threads and realized that the only language you speak is that of my little red smiley friend. Go read a book or something. Eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wewus432 Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 I think fucking with Carmen is a lot more fun than talking politics. :D Ya gotta admit he is persistent and also doesn't listen to a thing anyone says. Love ya Carmen, mean it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush Brain Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 I can't help thinking that fucking with Carmen is fun too, but I feel bad because I think he really has a lot of problems dealing with the outside world, and this shit probably doesn't help him a lot. He has so much hate that I think someone very close to him must have hurt him really bad. It's sad . :cry: By the way where were the conservatives on September 3, 1957? That's right, lined up as an angry white mob hurling racial epithets at 9 young black students who wanted the same opportunities as white kids. That's not the same as a raid on a militant extremist campus gone wrong- that's open, unadulterated hate and discrimination, and the conservatives of America have a long and distinguished history of such actions. So if you want to play that kind of shit, conservatives have enough egg on their face from a long and hateful history to last forever. One of the most fucked up things is that a true conservative agenda is harmful to "numbers" of voters who support it- the poor and middle working classes of the south, who will not benefit from the feed-the-rich policies of a conservative economic agenda. The conservative elite are clever enough to play the race card and several other key issues- religious fundamentalism and abortion, gun laws, etc- in order to motivate a voter base who, if the conservative elite had their way, would end up poorer for it, even if they could buy a gun whenever and however they wanted. And what we see now is this policy in action- fortunately enough, both the democrats and many of the republicans are worried enough about the coming elections to make Bush's budget a pipe dream. "The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them." -Mark Twain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOT Bolt Rifles Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Bush Brain: [b]I can't help thinking that fucking with Carmen is fun too, but I feel bad because I think he really has a lot of problems dealing with the outside world, and this shit probably doesn't help him a lot. He has so much hate that I think someone very close to him must have hurt him really bad. It's sad . :cry: By the way where were the conservatives on September 3, 1957? That's right, lined up as an angry white mob hurling racial epithets at 9 young black students who wanted the same opportunities as white kids. That's not the same as a raid on a militant extremist campus gone wrong- that's open, unadulterated hate and discrimination, and the conservatives of America have a long and distinguished history of such actions. So if you want to play that kind of shit, conservatives have enough egg on their face from a long and hateful history to last forever. One of the most fucked up things is that a true conservative agenda is harmful to "numbers" of voters who support it- the poor and middle working classes of the south, who will not benefit from the feed-the-rich policies of a conservative economic agenda. The conservative elite are clever enough to play the race card and several other key issues- religious fundamentalism and abortion, gun laws, etc- in order to motivate a voter base who, if the conservative elite had their way, would end up poorer for it, even if they could buy a gun whenever and however they wanted. And what we see now is this policy in action- fortunately enough, both the democrats and many of the republicans are worried enough about the coming elections to make Bush's budget a pipe dream.[/b][/quote]Bush! You've made your point so eloquently, I'm speechless . Please send your message far and wide! Thanks! "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -- John Adams "I am a senior member, and thereby entilted to all the privileges and rights accorded said status" -- NBR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarmenC Posted March 2, 2003 Author Share Posted March 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Bush Brain: [b]I can't help thinking that fucking with Carmen is fun too, but I feel bad because I think he really has a lot of problems dealing with the outside world, and this shit probably doesn't help him a lot. He has so much hate that I think someone very close to him must have hurt him really bad. It's sad . :cry: By the way where were the conservatives on September 3, 1957? That's right, lined up as an angry white mob hurling racial epithets at 9 young black students who wanted the same opportunities as white kids. That's not the same as a raid on a militant extremist campus gone wrong- that's open, unadulterated hate and discrimination, and the conservatives of America have a long and distinguished history of such actions. So if you want to play that kind of shit, conservatives have enough egg on their face from a long and hateful history to last forever. One of the most fucked up things is that a true conservative agenda is harmful to "numbers" of voters who support it- the poor and middle working classes of the south, who will not benefit from the feed-the-rich policies of a conservative economic agenda. The conservative elite are clever enough to play the race card and several other key issues- religious fundamentalism and abortion, gun laws, etc- in order to motivate a voter base who, if the conservative elite had their way, would end up poorer for it, even if they could buy a gun whenever and however they wanted. And what we see now is this policy in action- fortunately enough, both the democrats and many of the republicans are worried enough about the coming elections to make Bush's budget a pipe dream.[/b][/quote]? I don't hate anyone, but you sound like your hate for conservatives and Bush is very real. You must be so scared to live in America at this time in history. :freak: An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Sir Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by C.M.: [b]I'll use your logic, who was running the country at the time? the LIBERALS. [/b][/quote]Lol. I think I can set my watch to you T. Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by CarmenC: [b]Is this all your opinion?[/b][/quote]I sure didn't cut and paste it from somewhere else... Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nursers Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Yeah, buddy!!! The Keyboard Chronicles Podcast Check out your fellow forumites in an Apple Music playlist Check out your fellow forumites in a Spotify playlist My Music: Stainless Fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]Ya gotta admit he is persistent and also doesn't listen to a thing anyone says. [/b][/quote]Oh, I disagree. I think he listens at least as much as anyone else I've read who has been posting! Draw your own conclusions there... I think he makes a strong point. What is the point? The point is that there is an agenda here among many who post about this whole Iraq thing. They are only interested in [i]"Facts"[/i] that support their pre-conceived bias. How 'OBJECTIVE' can you be about something, when you have already arrived at the answer before you set out to research the question??? NOT VERY... Why make the punishment fit the crime, when you can make the crime fit the punishment??? Right now it's the war. But if it weren't the war it'd be something else. And had Al Gore been elected, would there be this big outcry over Iraq? According to what I've been reading here -that answer would be 'No'. That's Carmen's point as I see it. Perhaps he's been doing quite a bit of listening... I'm with you, Wewus. I'd rather not see this argued from a partisan standpoint. But unfortunately, we have to contend with those who'd prefer to. You're never going to get to the heart of this war issue if you're dealing with people who can't see past their hatred of Bush and the Republican party. I asked in another thread; 'why we can't focus on the things we can agree on, rather than the things we disagree on' and barely got a response. Why? It appears that would mean we'd have to start seeking answers and solutions to problems. No, that won't happen. Bush bashing is much more fun! It's not about a freak'n war -it's about slamm'n the guy in the Whitehouse... Prove me wrong!!! PLEASE!!! :( Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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