Bose L1 System Hot or Not?

[ABECK]

Originally posted by Griffinator:

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Bose stopped using foam surrounds years ago.

No kidding? Take a look at This - a Series 5 (current) pair of 501's - check out the tweeter. Still a paper cone, foam surround, just like they've always used.

Current? Bose stopped manufacturing the 501 V in 2001. They carried a 5 year warranty (which did cover the drivers and surrounds)

[Griffinator]

I stand corrected.

[ABECK]

You're probably right about the paper though.

[Johnny Crab]

Originally posted by gangsu:

Hey Griff, nobody said anything about using the PAS for a loud rock band.

Bass player here.

Not a LOUD ROCK BAND but we cover everything from 50's to recent. Rock is VH cover tunes and a couple of others.

Setup: 4 PAS systems each with 2 B1's

One for guitar and backing vocal

One for lead vocal

Drummer has more B1's

One for bass player

I tried stacking 4 B1's

 

Of 8 gigs, bass sounded OK(meaning I didn't hate the sound) at one gig. I did have to cut lows to prevent the aux amp powering the B1's from going into self-protect(Red light, power output drops, comes back to normal a few seconds later). Notes below the C-note on the A string sound "fake" or not really there somewhat like a high $$$ jambox...sounds good to non-bassplayers maybe. I couldn't handle this so my sound is now projected via a QSC 2402 into two ACME B2's stacked vertically. I'm still working with the BOSE as it DOES dispersion well in the mids/highs(maybe use the ACME's for subs only?). Maybe a hybrid system?

 

I did find what, IMHO, was a frequency "hole" near the PAS crossover point(in the 110 ~ 150 Hz area?). Drummer has the same bass drum falloff quickly with distance.

 

With an electrical engineering degree, BOSE' lack of a frequency response curve and the constant repeating of "there's not a lot of stuff except boom down there anyway" by BOSE-ites does have me more skeptical than I was...

 

Like I told my son, if there is nothing but mud down there....why do real pipe organs with huge pipes for bass and speakers that CAN do 31 Hz sound and feel so much more "real" than these?

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

I had a Bose PAS with sub and sold it after concluding I would need two units to satisfy my ears with my stereo sampled piano. It sounded thin and small in mono, sort of hollow. The midrange was clear, present and smooth. The bass was undefined and the highs were not emphasized. I now use two 36 pound 500 watt EV SXa360 powered speakers which I much prefer over muy old heavy hyped tone Mackie SRM450 speakers.

I wish I had the money to consider a sound system that costs $4,000. Because it seems to me that if I'm playing jazz in a small room, in a trio with bass and drums, for instance, I'd really want to keep my signal stereo - like it was intended to be.

 

Two poles plus two subs = $4,000.

 

CLONK HERE

 

My vote is still for a Mackie mixer, a QSC PLX 1804 amp, and a couple of EAW FR 153z speakers.

 

I'll keep the ~$1,500 difference for my next mortgage payment.

[soundscape]

One thing I can say... Bose always has been and always will be a bit different. It's a privately held company and apparently will basically become a charitable foundation or something like that whenever Dr. Amar Bose passes away.

 

That Bose "Cannon" subwoofer sure is cool, too.

 

http://pro.bose.com/images/pro/products/pi_cannon.jpg

[Griffinator]

A charitable foundation?

 

Like maybe they'll give the money back to all those people they fleeced over the years with those chintzy cubes?

 

Re: the "Cannon"

 

Where's the ad copy on this thing? I'd love to hear how they intend to defy the laws of physics and excursion to reach into the sub-harmonic frequency range with what appears to be no more than a 3 inch driver....

 

(edit)

 

Never mind, just found ad copy on it - I had the scale pegged wrong. 12 foot tube with a 12 inch sub.

 

At least they finally figured out the excursion problem. Maybe now they can apply this new found understanding to the rest of their systems...

[LarryC]

I bought 2 towers and 1 sub for my 6 piece wedding band about a month after they were introduced and will never turn back to a traditional PA.

 

Our horn/EVI player/singer has his own. Bass and guitar run through their own amps unless it's a large venue (i.e. gym or really large banquet hall and I'll run a line from the guitar amp into one of the towers to help fill out his sound so he doesn't turn up to "11"!

 

I started running in stereo for the dinner jazz sets (Motif 6 w/Coakley Piano samples) and run both towers through one sub (make sure you make the proper connections). Then when the dance sets starts, I'll run in mono. If I were jazz playing jazz trio stuff, stereo would be overkill. You audience won't know the difference. Just play with a pair of ear buds from the headphone jack from your synth or board if you NEED to hear yourself in stereo.

 

Transport: I put the 2 pedastals on top of a trap case and roll it in. The speakers I carry in separately with chord ties around a pair of handle for ease. I've looked into several golf bag hard hard shells but just can't seem to find one to hold four. Another option would be a padded 88key gig bag with rollers to transport those.

 

Feedback: Yes occasioanlly, but 90% less than feedback I used to get with monitor wedges. Also depends on the microphones you use. SM 57 and 58 rarely feed back.

 

Price: $2000 (or $3700) is a lot but 1) it's a nice tax write off and 2)I've spent 3x's that amount over the past on various keyboard and PA mixers/speakers/monitors I've never been as happy with as I am with the Bose. It's truly the best keyboard amp/vocal monitor I've ever heard or used.

 

Best customer service I've ever experienced and the user forums are visited by many Bose employees on a daily basis. The sound spreads very evenly. As long as the band members understand the concept of playing along with them, then the mix is great. And visually, it's nice not having two big cabinets on poles on the front two corners of the band set up and wedges all over the place. Less cables to deal with and set up/tear down is a breeze. I always have my mini van packed up before the drummer has his equipment in his cases! :-)

 

I know it's not for everybody so please no flames. And due to contrary thinking, they sound GREAT outdoors! If you have to have ear thumping subs, you can use your existing sub set up to with them.

 

Larry

[Dave Horne]

Griffinator , it really seems that you have it in for Bose. You mention two very negative remarks - the dpeaker cone edging, a problem that was solved at least 17 years ago (my Series II 802's are that old and are still fine) ... and the 3" cone which now turns out to be a 12" cone.

 

????

[soundscape]

Actually, after you said Bose "Acoustimess," I thought it was about time I did a little research on Bose--including challenging my own views, because I've been known to say "Bose sucks" many times over the years. (That includes the "Cannon" subwoofer; I heard an installation at a nightclub once, and, er, Bose sucks again!... because the floors weren't shaking. In truth, it was ceiling mounted while typical nightclub subwoofers are placed on the floor, so no wonder the floor wasn't shaking--the sound was probably more accurate! [Maybe the odd "bass shaker"* fixed to the floor wouldn't have gone amiss, though.])

 

(*No, not a subwoofer--this: http://www.sensaphonics.com/prod_aura.html)

 

 

Originally posted by Griffinator:

A charitable foundation?

Yeah, go figure... until you discover that they spent lots of money on researching... car suspension systems. (?)

 

Originally posted by Griffinator:

Like maybe they'll give the money back to all those people they fleeced over the years with those chintzy cubes?

LOL... Bose Acoustimass 3 is down to a sane price level now.

 

"Acoustimass® 3 Series IV... $199.00"

 

The Lifestyle systems are still somewhat steep, though, especially since they lack in certain areas (e.g., relatively poor quality progressive video output (for DVD,) IIRC.)

 

I think the Acoustimass (mess ) systems have to be seen in the context of a certain market--those with disposable income don't have much space or don't want to clutter up their living area with big speakers and want a convenient and easy to install system that sounds quite good. And compared with the trash mid-fi (being charitable) systems often sold as hi-fi, that's what they get. Given the physical dimensions and basic specs (e.g., passive crossovers in some cases), they're probably about as optimized as they can be--the Bose "bass modules" use quite a complex bandpass design. Meanwhile, some "audiophile" companies have really lax engineering--at least one company has claimed that they designed their enclosure and crossovers "by ear," and I'm sure some lack tight quality control. (Some years ago a magazine found that some speakers they had in review from a well known "audiophile" company weren't performing correctly, because the bass/mid has come from a different batch than those the company used in development--and the parameters had changed to the point that the port tuning was way out.)

 

The Bose 901 seems to be their stereo "audiophile" system--although I've never understood why you'd want most of the drivers pointing at the wall.

 

Originally posted by Griffinator:

At least they finally figured out the excursion problem. Maybe now they can apply this new found understanding to the rest of their systems...

Bose probably have more R&D resources than anyone else in the loudspeaker business. Their sound reinforcement systems are, apparently, quite well respected.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by LarryC:

The sound spreads very evenly.

If Bose really have got that part right, they have tackled a big problem in a fairly elegant way.

[Griffinator]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Griffinator , it really seems that you have it in for Bose. You mention two very negative remarks - the dpeaker cone edging, a problem that was solved at least 17 years ago (my Series II 802's are that old and are still fine) ... and the 3" cone which now turns out to be a 12" cone.

The Speaker surrounds problem wasn't solved 17 years ago. I know too many people personally who can line up to argue with that. It may have been solved within the last 5 years, I wouldn't know - I don't even go to stores that carry Bose equipment anymore.

 

And no sane person would expect that tube to be 12 feet long. All I saw was a picture, and, figuring (pretty accurately) that the tube was about 12:1 to the speaker, I guesstimated a 3-4 inch speaker in a 3-4 foot tube.

 

Do I despise Amar and his company? You bet. I know what good home audio looks and sounds like, and it ain't Bose. Never has been.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by LarryC:

I started running in stereo for the dinner jazz sets (Motif 6 w/Coakley Piano samples) and run both towers through one sub (make sure you make the proper connections). Then when the dance sets starts, I'll run in mono. If I were jazz playing jazz trio stuff, stereo would be overkill. You audience won't know the difference. Just play with a pair of ear buds from the headphone jack from your synth or board if you NEED to hear yourself in stereo.

 

Larry

Stereo is overkill in a jazz trio situation and I should wear ear buds connected to the headphone jack of my synth?

 

You're kidding me, right?

 

Larry, do a search and read about the phase problems that our forum users have experienced running their keyboards in mono. I can hear it and, in a small room, I believe everyone else can hear it as well. In a jazz trio the pianist takes the lead. Sound quality is critical. I wouldn't think of using any method that makes me sound less than my best in a situation such as that.

 

And your idea of listening with ear buds through the headphone jack of your keyboard? Tell me you're not serious. How in the world will you be able to hear the other musicians and balance your dynamics - much less stay connected with your audience and monitor your overall volume?

 

For rock, when all the instruments are running through the board, you may be able to use IEM effectively. But when I'm improvising with other musicians in a jazz trio, distractions can disrupt my train of thought. As the pianist, driving the band in a trio configuration, I simply can't let this happen.

 

Bose? No thanks.

 

They may work, but there are better-sounding, less-expensive options.

[David Loving]

It's amazing how good a group is when they all listen to each other.

Try in-ear monitors. We usually only go to mono for polkas. [just kidding]

[Dave Horne]

I believe the problem with the edges of Bose speakers was with the Series I and the early Series II. The edging of my 802's appears to be a linen type material. I've heard all the stuff about Bose before and my 802's are about 17 years old and show no sign of ageing. (I also must add that I rarely see any second hand Bose 802's for sale.)

 

When I was in the military we used 802's for most concerts and all combo jobs. I only remember one 802 failing and that was a blown speaker cone. We really abused them - the bass player would use two 802's for rehearsals. I only bought mine because of the many years of personal experience with them.

 

I had a problem years ago which I thought was caused by the System Controller (actually I was over driving it but didn't know that at the time). I sent it to Bose, they had to rewire it for 115 VAC, tested it, converted it back to 230 VAC, sent it back to me ... no charge. It tested fine.

 

I'm not going to defend Bose per se, but my experience has been excellent.

[soundscape]

From http://www.fohonline.com/issue/index.php?di=0411&fi=roadtest.txt

 

"Bass from the two 5.25-drivers was tight and clean going down to 40Hz, but it didnt get very loud. The mid-range was clear for voice and easily traveled the length of the rooms. The treble from the 24 2.25 paper drivers fell sharply at 12kHz and did not have the airy hi-fi extension of a metal dome. "

 

and...

 

"The Bose L1 with the B1 sub is the least expensive way to get in on the line array bandwagon. It excels for simple gigs like corporate display booths, weddings, small meetings and any gigs where there might not be a professional sound engineer to patch the equipment and mix."

 

and...

 

"The L1 is a true line source from 150hz to 8kHz and inside that range, the L1 will, from feedback perspective, behave as if it is four feet away. Line arrays also drop off in level at 3dB when distance is doubled, compared to 6dB for point source speakers."

[BluesKeys]

Since this thread is back and forth somewhat off topic I will add my 2 cents worth on Bose quality.

 

I purchased 901's back in 1977 or '78. I don't remember what series they were but I had problems with the rubber/foam cone edge rot sometime around 1993 or '94. I made a call to Bose to complain and they said they had a return/replacement program for the older speakers. I believe it cost $450 with shipping and I got a brand new pair of Series VI 901's and the new EQ which all the 901 series have to have. It was less than 1/2 the price of new ones and I was surprised they even offered to help with speakers that were already 15yr to 16yr old. I have no idea what kind of warrantee they come with but I doubt it is over 10 years.

 

I still love my 901's and the "new" set is now about 12yrs old. That means for nearly 30 years I have had a great sound system for around $4.00 a month. Plus I bought the Bose power amp in 1977/78 and it is still going strong.

[BluesKeys]

dreaded double post

[Griffinator]

Originally posted by soundscape:

The treble from the 24 2.25 paper drivers fell sharply at 12kHz and did not have the airy hi-fi extension of a metal dome.

So they're still using the 50-cent alarm-clock-style paper cones for treble range, even in their "professional" systems.

 

Exactly what I suspected. No thanks, Amar. Live HF projection demands metal tweeters.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Griffinator:

So they're still using the 50-cent alarm-clock-style paper cones for treble range, even in their "professional" systems.

LOL, I'm sure they're better than "alarm clock" speakers.

 

Originally posted by Griffinator:

Exactly what I suspected. No thanks, Amar. Live HF projection demands metal tweeters.

Whether Bose are good/bad, coverage of sounds reinforcement systems is a serious issue.

[Griffinator]

See, the 2.25" paper cone driver Bose has been using in both the Acoustimass systems and now, apparently, in the L1 as well is, from a pure physics viewpoint, the worst possible choice for HF reproduction. It's also (and I quote wikipedia)

 

Cone tweeters are relatively cheap, but do not have the dispersion characteristics of domes. Thus they are routinely seen in low cost applications such as factory car speakers, clock radios, boom boxes.

As to performance....

 

Bigger is not always better for tweeters. The smaller the tweeter is, the better it will disperse sound at the higher frequencies

Simple fact: Bose has been using 2 1/4" and larger paper cones for HF reproduction for their entire existence. No other reputable speaker manufacturer uses paper cones, and precious few use anything larger than two inches because of the lack of HF response.

[Billdar]

This thread is a perfect example of how the word "Bose" always seems to trigger bipolar controversy. Until about a year ago, I was on the skeptical side with regard to the Bose PAS, but after doing some research, and actually trying one out, I ended up buying one (an L1 with 1 subwoofer). I have used it on about 30 gigs, and use it on occasion for practicing at home. I also have a pair of Mackie SRM350 powered loudspeakers, and a pair of M-Audio BX-8 monitor speakers, and while I still have them and find use for them, the Bose PAS could handily replace both.

 

To my ears, the quality of the sound that the Bose puts out is high. It just sounds pleasant to me. I did a direct A - B comparison of the Bose PAS with the BX-8's, with my Yamaha S90 and Roland Hammond clone, and with the BX-8's fairly close together (4 ft.), at a distance of about 15 feet I could scarcely tell the difference.

 

I've heard that the highs on the Bose roll off somewhere around 12,000 Hz, and yes, things like B3 keyclick are more present when using the BX-8's, but bottom line, my ears were perfectly happy with either system.

 

Most microphones used in live sound, like the Shure SM58 and SM57, roll off around 12,000 Hz (specs are available on Shure's website), and most keyboard sounds have little content above that point, so I don't see lack of highs as being a significant problem.

 

The sound from the Bose PAS is evenly distributed, and there is less fall off over distance (I checked this out with a DB meter), so it does well at covering a stage without volume hot spots. So I've found that it works quite well as a stage monitor. But as I look forward to my "retirement" years playing quieter jazz gigs, I think that the Bose PAS, used as the primary amplification (without a FOH sound system), will really come into its own.

 

As a one-time stereophile, I know that the mono/stereo issue is significant for many keyboard players. Some keyboards sound better in mono than others, and if having pristine acoustic piano is a necessity, I think that using a mono friendly keyboard or module would be a must.

 

The B3 Leslie sim in my Roland VR-760 sounds suprisingly good when run through the Bose. I think that the 160 degree dispersion angle has something to do with this, as it bounces sound off walls like a real Leslie.

 

However, on the Bose forum, a company rep descibed how he set up a Bose PAS system for a concert featuring a Hammond B3 player (I don't remember who). Interestingly, he used TWO Bose units, miking the Leslie in stereo. He said that if he had to do it again, he'd just use one Bose PAS (as per the Bose "pro mono" recommendation). However he didn't do this the first time, so for critical Leslie or Lesle sim amplication, I think that two units would be killer (and expensive!).

 

After using a Bose PAS for a year now, I'm happy with it!

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Griffinator:

See, the 2.25" paper cone driver Bose has been using in both the Acoustimass systems and now, apparently, in the L1 as well is, from a pure physics viewpoint, the worst possible choice for HF reproduction. It's also (and I quote wikipedia)

 

Cone tweeters are relatively cheap, but do not have the dispersion characteristics of domes. Thus they are routinely seen in low cost applications such as factory car speakers, clock radios, boom boxes.

Yes, yes... I have a copy of "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" and various other books and publications somewhere around here. According to them, drivers start to "beam" at a certain frequency, which is lower the larger the diameter of the diaphragm. There's also the issue of cone break-up.

 

 

Originally posted by Griffinator:

Simple fact: Bose has been using 2 1/4" and larger paper cones for HF reproduction for their entire existence. No other reputable speaker manufacturer uses paper cones, and precious few use anything larger than two inches because of the lack of HF response.

Yes... and that's why I wonder why Bose makes that choice. They have the engineering capability to do what they want... Chinese dome tweeters aren't exactly super-expensive... I mean, here's a Bose driver:

 

http://donramon1.com/DREAUDIO/A6.jpg

 

Dome tweeters have plenty of problems too.

 

Bose certainly have some odd ideas, like putting most of the drivers on the rear of the 901's. My suspicion is that Bose are not optimizing accuracy but maybe some other parameter, such as listening fatigue.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Griffinator:

And no sane person would expect that tube to be 12 feet long. All I saw was a picture, and, figuring (pretty accurately) that the tube was about 12:1 to the speaker, I guesstimated a 3-4 inch speaker in a 3-4 foot tube.

C'mon, man, you think I'd call a 3" driver-based subwoofer "cool"? Give me some credit!

[soundscape]

Here's a POS TV speaker:

 

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50631844/TV_Speaker.jpg

[opp]

Hi All,

 

Just wanted to chime in on my latest experience. We've had a few more gigs since i originally posted this topic and still haven't got an opportunity to try out the Bose system. The music store I deal with here has I believe 5 single systems which they rent out, 2 that are still out on rent and 3 in for repairs? I must admit that scares me a little although maybe their fine if you look after them. I'm sure some equipment makes poor rental stock , as some customers must beat the crap out of gear that 's not theirs.

Thanks for all the replies and opinions!

 

Regards,

Stephen

[soundscape]

Originally posted by soundscape:

"The Bose L1 with the B1 sub is the least expensive way to get in on the line array bandwagon."

BTW... I have a book somewhere here that denounces the use of line arrays. If I can find it, I'll quote the reasons why.

[ITGITC]

http://www.freedomguitar.com/images/shurevocalmaster3188.jpg

 

Shure Vocal Master

 

Line array?

 

Another page of interest regarding column speakers

[soundscape]

LOL... right, there were some really shonky line arrays made back in the day.

[ewall08530]

Hey where can I get one of them there Shure Vocal Masters. I wanted to get another Bose L1 system but I dont have the money right now so maybe with the Shure.....