Still trying to figure out what to use live!

[Les Mizzell]

I'm still trying to figure out what I want to use live! My problem is lack of a master controller that I actually like. I want a good 76 key controller. Seems nobody but CME makes one.

 

http://www.cme-pro.com/images/big-uf5678.jpg

The UF series above has gotten decent reviews, BUT - it has NO memory to store setups and worse yet, how the heck do you do quick patch changes? Uhhhh - there's a SCROLL WHEEL. Argh!!! I'm doing a lot of pit band jobs for local theatre here, and I need to push ONE BUTTON and have everything reconfigure. I've usually only got one measure or less to change patches and there's no way I'm going to rely on a scroll wheel for a quick change like that. As nice as the price is, I don't see how to do what I want with this keyboard.

 

http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-vx.html

The VX series above look a little more promising, but motorized faders? Give me a break. That's a tech problem waiting to happen on the road, plus look at the added extra weight and $$s for that feature. Attractive as it seems, I think it's overkill

 

So, I considered the CME UF again, but combined with something like Native Instruments KORE.

http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=kore_us

Kore looks cool, would handle all the splits and layers I need for the theatre stuff and works great with the Native Instruments software I've already got ... but WAIT - how the heck do I quickly change patches from their interface? Anybody? Great concept, but I think they blew it on the interface.

 

I've *not* looked at any other MIDI controller boxes yet. Anybody else?

 

Considering that I've already got the software (Absynth, Kontakt and FM7) with the sample libraries I'd be using, if I could find the right keyboard/interface I could be into a pretty powerful performance systems for a decent price, especially since I can get a Macbook at the educational discount.

 

All along I've been considering the Kurzwel K2600. 76 keys, complete setup/patch changes with amazing MIDI controller functions by pushing one button, and the deepest editing of anything out there - provided you've got a degree in rocket science, which bothers me not. But, it's another $2000 over the price of the laptop route from where I'm standing and that's pushing the budget.

 

I'm not really interested in the current RolaYamaKorg offerings.

 

It's the controller that seems to be my hang-up. I don't want a hammer action keyboard as it just doesn't work for certain playing styles like strings and winds! If M Audio would do a semi-weighted 76 key version of the Keystation Pro 88 I'd freaking be sold.

 

Ideas?

[mate stubb]

Find a used Roland A-70. The Roland A-70, -80, and -90 are not made anymore but are still unsurpassed as the finest midi controllers ever made (unless you include some rare birds like the Kurzweil Midiboard).

 

http://www.strumentimusicaliusati.it/Foto/sgracchi_A-70%20front01.jpg

[K K]

Hopefully the A-70 doesn't work like the A-80 regarding the sliders, that is always sending the values for the current positions they're at when you call a new preset, something I thought was a terrible flaw when I tested one looooong ago.

 

Imagine using slider 3 for modulation on set-up X, leaving it at minimum at the end of your solo, and then switching to set-up Y with slider 3 now programmed for MIDI#7. Hey, I can't hear anything!

 

But I'm pretty sure they solved this problem with their A-90.

[Les Mizzell]

I'd happily go with "weighted, but not hammer action" 88 keys as well if I could find something with the required features.

 

It's almost as if the designers never actually use the things live to see how they're going to work. Either that, or they're playing one patch on it all night...

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by LesMizzell:

It's almost as if the designers never actually use the things live to see how they're going to work.

In my opinion there's not a single dedicated MIDI controller on the market that was designed with live performance in mind. Not a big surprise, given the trend away from live performance towards home studios, DJ's, etc.

 

As soon as I see that a keyboard can derive its power entirely from a USB connection, I know it was designed for home studio use.

[Prague]

Originally posted by Cydonia:

Hopefully the A-70 doesn't work like the A-80 regarding the sliders, that is always sending the values for the current positions they're at when you call a new preset

This doesn't happen on the A-70. The software for the 70 and 90 are 99% identical.

 

These are still the best controller-only keyboards out there. The CME's (amongst many others) aren't even close.

[Les Mizzell]

In my opinion there's not a single dedicated MIDI controller on the market that was designed with live performance in mind.

But if some many of us are complaining about this (maybe not enough??) why isn't somebody making something?

 

Tell ya what - somebody with better writing skills than I - write up a petition, and I'll host it somewhere with a web-form to add signatures. I'll also drop notices about the petition on other forums/mailing lists. Once we've got a boat-load of names, I'll print it all out and send it to whomever might actually listen to what we want?

 

Anybody game?

 

Let's do it. Worse that can happen is everybody keeps ignoring us - but this time we'll have a right to b*tch because we let them know what we wanted.

 

Do we need to come up with a reasonable feature list first?

 

What say ye?

[K K]

I don't think a petition would convince any manufacturer. As I already mentioned in other threads, the problem with good controllers is that they are expensive to make and nobody wants to pay the price. To give you a clear example, I paid $3400 CAN in 1990 for a brand new MIDIboard that I still use everyday.

 

People assume that because electronic parts are cheaper now that good controllers today should be under $1000, or weight under 15 lbs or have this certain amount of keys, this action and not this other one, etc. But there's a lot more than electronics in a good keyboard controller. Just a reliable keyboard + action + poly AT system costs a lot more than the electronic parts. So how can you design something similar to a MIDIboard in 2006 that would cost $1000, if it costed a lot more 15 years ago? It's just not realistic. Hence why most new controllers today are cheap and offer anemic features and quite ordinary MIDI implementation.

 

If for ten seconds you try to imagine yourself as the manufacturer, you have no choice but to go for a certain profitability. And since most people prefer buying keyboards with sounds, the demand is quite small for "pure" controllers. Add to this that people expectations are exaggerated for the price they want to pay, and you begin to understand why nobody builds good controllers anymore.

 

A recent example of this : Kurzweil introduced their new 76-key PC2SE that should be released very soon now, apparently following many requests from keyboardists. Well, the recent threads I read here about it was that many complained that it was too expensive, that it missed that particular feature, that it should weight less, that it's a Fatar action, etc.

[Sven Golly]

The thing that we need to realize is that, as live performing keyboard players, we are in the vast minority of the marketplace for the keyboard/synth/workstation manufacturers. As much as Roland might want to cater to our needs, they know that they need to target to the lowest common denominator, which runs the gamut from the beginner in his bedroom studio to the weekend 40-something jobber in the U.S. midwest; hence things like the Juno-G, the Fantom Xa, etc. That's why Yamaha brought out the MO6 and MO8, and Korg with their Triton LE.

 

So those of us that want MIDI controllers that have an adequate number of memory locations, zones, controller options, etc. are, plain and simple, out of luck; our options are to purchase synths/workstations with the functionality we need, or suffer the inadequacies of the current crop on the market.

 

That's why I'm still using my 17-year-old Roland A-80 and A-50 for my larger gigs; even though these fall short because they don't support bank select messages for patch changes... but I can work around that.

[JeffLearman]

Consider a used Ensoniq ZR-76. I have the MR76 and it's a great keyboard -- fully weighted keys, if that's what you want. The MR is bad as a live controller due to no quick patch-change buttons, and they fixed that on the ZR by adding them right up front and center. Those patch keys can call up patches with layers and splits, etc., and when changing patches will send MIDI patch change messages. Or you can have different MIDI channels for different patches (including layering two MIDI channels, etc.)

 

They're running around $800 on ebay. And it has some great sounds built in, as well. In particular, the piano is very good and the Suitcase Rhodes is great for jazzy tone (complete with stereo vibrato). Also excellent vibes, and usable clav though no "D6-freak's delight".

[K K]

Originally posted by Sven Golly:

...to the weekend 40-something jobber in the U.S. midwest...

A reference to Tom?

 

Hi Tom.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by Cydonia:

Originally posted by Sven Golly:

...to the weekend 40-something jobber in the U.S. midwest...

A reference to Tom?

 

Hi Tom.

40-something?

 

I'll take it.

 

But since when was NC considered the U.S. midwest?

 

BTW, where is Cleveland? I'm headed there in about a week.

 

Ummmm, thanks for thinking of me.

[K K]

Sorry, here we don't have USA geography classes in the Canadian contingent, so I was mistaken.