Changing my keyboard action attitude (anyone else)?

[johnnysavant]

The new generation Yamaha digital action is lighter than the previous. I have a P90 and a P250. The P90 is much heavier. But either of them is better than any other digitals out there. The Kawais are pretty nice. These companies have been making real grand piano actions for a zillion years, so one would expect their digital actions to be better.

 

Roland's best actions are awful because they have squared off edges on the keys. Try a Glissando on a Rolnad RD700SX, then on any Yamaha. Night and Day. The Rland will almost take the skin off your hand.

[Jazzwee]

My S90ES has pretty light action in my view. Certainly significantly lighter than my upright so not all Yamaha weighted actions are the same. Like I said, the Casio is heavier.

 

BurningBusch, that felt doesn't seem to be a lot of weight. My contention that on my upright the weight comes from the damper springs is easily proven when the pedal is off. The weight difference is humonguous. Also when I step on the "soft pedal" (the left most pedal on my upright), which brings the hammers closer to the strings, the action is a lot lighter, equal to my digital. Anyway, I don't feel this excessive damper spring weight on a Yamaha U3.

 

Hey piano experts (wmp?) speak up here and explain all this technical stuff to us. We would really appreciate it.

[Dave Horne]

I looked at that link for the Magnetic Balanced Action.

 

What bothers me slightly is the address, it looks like a mail drop off point. Maybe it's just me, but when I see a large company (or at least a large web site) with an 'A' next to the numbers in the street address, I think apartment.

 

International Brokers Inc.

5827A Crystal Hill Rd.

North Little Rock, AR. 72118

 

At any rate, I've written a letter to Fazoli asking what their relationship is with that company. I looked again at the Fazoli site and could not find any mention of this new fangled action. (I'm just naturally skeptical, always have been.)

[gangsu]

How exciting is this! Dave Horne on a "changing my keyboard action attitude" thread!! Alas, I was mislead.

 

To help ease (add to?) your skepticism, here is an excerpt from the Piano Book by Larry Fine, pg. 233:

 

"The Magnetic Balanced Action, invented by Evert Snel and Hans Velo from the Netherlands, is a system that uses magnets, instead of key leads, to create the keyboard's touchweight. A pair of attracting magnets is active in front of the fulcrum and a pair of repelling magnets in back. The gap between the magnets in each pair, and therefore the attracting or repelling force, can be set by means of a screw adjustment in each key. In addition, there are several screws that can be used to make global adjustments for whole sections of the keyboard at once.

 

When the Magnetic Balanced Action is installed in a piano, any pianist can adjust the touchweight to his or her personal preference in a matter of seconds. Also when maintenance is performed that alters the touchweight, such as filing or replacing hammers, the optimal touchweight can be easily restored. Besides the ability to adjust the touchweight, however, are the advantages that come from the reduced inertia due to the lack of key leads: better control for soft playing, faster return of the key, and less strain on the pianist's hands.

 

The only manufacturer currently making the Magnetic Balanced Action available as an option in new pianos is Fazioli. However, the Fazioli distributor in the United States is coordinating efforts to make the system available as a retrofit for existing pianos. The approximate installed price is $8,500. Internationl Brokers, Inc., 5827A Crystal Hill Rd., N. Little Rock, Arkansas 72118; (501) 753-8616; piano@ipa.net, www.internationalbrokersinc.com. "

 

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

What bothers me slightly is the address, it looks like a mail drop off point. Maybe it's just me, but when I see a large company (or at least a large web site) with an 'A' next to the numbers in the street address, I think apartment.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/gangsu/MBA.jpg

 

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/gangsu/5827ACrystalHillRd.jpg

 

At any rate, I've written a letter to Fazoli asking what their relationship is with that company. I looked again at the Fazoli site and could not find any mention of this new fangled action. (I'm just naturally skeptical, always have been.)

Fazioli. Fazioli.

[Jeff_D_in_MD]

I agree with Ed Coury--I learned on an acoustic, was given an unweighted digital that was unpleasant to play, and finally got a P120. Doesn't feel quite as good as the acoustic, but the portability and giggability are worth it.

[Dave Horne]

Gangsu,

How exciting is this! Dave Horne on a "changing my keyboard action attitude" thread!! Alas, I was mislead.

Thank you for your kind words. And thanks for the beautiful photos.

 

Has anyone here ever played on such an actions .... has anyone ever seen such an action?

 

If anyone can find anything at the Fazioli site please pass on the link.

[K K]

Dave, I may be wrong, but the "A" address you mentioned seems to be the American distributor for the invention. Since you live in the Netherlands, why don't you instead try to contact the inventor directly (see the yellow box in the middle of his Web page), as he also happen to live there.

 

Maybe you could meet him, test his piano system, take a few pics and ask KC how much they would give you for a "one-day reporter job".

 

That would make a great article in the next Keyboard issue.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

I measured the down weight of the keys on my early edition Yamaha P250 numerous times and it is 75 grams around middle C. The same keys on my excellent acoustic piano by Mason & Hamlin require 46 grams of downweight. Horowitz had his Steinway regulated for about 45 grams of downweight. I also measured the Steinway B I play on and its about 56 grams downweight. Another big difference is that the Mason & Hamlin and the Steinway, like most real pianos, let you throw the hammer halfway down thru the keystroke, then you get follow thru to the keybed. I have to play all the way to the bottom of the keybed on the P250 to make it sound. So I figure I am forcing almost 30 grams more and having to push it almost twice as far. My Mason & Hamlin and Kawai ES4 are much easier for legato.

I haven't measured downweights on any piano, but based on my own experience, I find that Steinway grands, in general, have a heavier feel than Yamaha grands. Maybe there's more to it than just the downweight, or maybe I haven't played any Steinways that have been regulated for light action, I don't know. My Yamaha digital feels about similar to me to Yamaha grands I've played. Similar in basic weight only, I mean - of course, there's no comparison to playing a real piano, and all digitals blow in comparison to the real thing, in my opinion. It's kind of like the difference between this:

 

http://www.classixxx.com/cartfiles/images/pamela.jpg

 

and this:

 

http://www.adoring.net/images/pamanderson/gallery1/pam06.jpg

[Dave Horne]

I sent an e-mail to the Dutch link and expect an answer shortly. I would assume there is at least one piano close to me with that action.

 

If I play one, I'll report back.

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Cydonia:

Maybe you could meet him, test his piano system, take a few pics and ask KC how much they would give you for a "one-day reporter job".

 

That would make a great article in the next Keyboard issue.

That's a terrific idea. Go for it, Dave!

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Thank you for your kind words. And thanks for the beautiful photos.

no problemo.

[burningbusch]

I have a Yamaha MIDI Grand and can switch, nearly instantly, between the acoustic and digital pianos with the exact same action. The difference is AMAZING. Sound aside, with the acoustic piano you have constant/continuous control over the sound. Far greater dynamics. Agree 100% with Jazz+ and Floyd.

 

Those who think you can use these digitals in leu of the real thing to learn and/or advance your piano playing ability are nuts. Certainly they are useful when used in addition to an acoustic, but you have to spend time (the more the better) with the real thing. In comparison, digitals are crude devices and require only barbaric technique.

 

Busch.

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by johnnysavant:

Roland's best actions are awful because they have squared off edges on the keys. Try a Glissando on a Rolnad RD700SX, then on any Yamaha. Night and Day. The Rland will almost take the skin off your hand.

Yeah, when I first got my RD700, I had to clean blood off the keys several times. When I play solos on old-school rock 'n roll tunes, I tend to get a little crazy with the Jerry Lee Lewis style windmilling thing. (It always cracks me up how people cheer for that. It's the easiest thing I do, but always impresses the hell out of the crowds. Go figure.)

 

I'm used to it now, I've had it for three years, and haven't bled on it in at least a year. But the keys definitely have sharp edges.

 

--Dave

[Dave Horne]

In comparison, digitals are crude devices and require only barbaric technique.

I find this thread interesting. I would have thought there would be those who defend keyboards that are unweighted. Now I might even defend weighted digitals. Fortunately I don't have to practice on one full time though I really have no problems playing them on jobs. Playing my P250 on jobs is a lot like biking with the wind at your back. It's nice to relax once in a while.

[erard]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

I measured the down weight of the keys on my early edition Yamaha P250 numerous times and it is 75 grams around middle C. The same keys on my excellent acoustic piano by Mason & Hamlin require 46 grams of downweight. Horowitz had his Steinway regulated for about 45 grams of downweight. I also measured the Steinway B I play on and its about 56 grams downweight. Another big difference is that the Mason & Hamlin and the Steinway, like most real pianos, let you throw the hammer halfway down thru the keystroke, then you get follow thru to the keybed. I have to play all the way to the bottom of the keybed on the P250 to make it sound. So I figure I am forcing almost 30 grams more and having to push it almost twice as far. My Mason & Hamlin and Kawai ES4 are much easier for legato.

[/QB]

I also started by measuring the down weight of my P90 since I felt it was impossible to play expressively on it. On the bass the downweight is around 95 grams!! This means, no matter how lightly you touch it, it is not possible to play pianissimo as the minimum weight to just make it move is already very high. Also, when you play the white key close to the fallboard (when you are playing chords or sequences with the thumb on the black keys) they get even heavier.

This confirms the weird feeling I have with this keyboard which is statically heavy and dinamically too light. Why Yamaha did this? Because high downweight means high upweights (the maximum weight you can put on the key and have it return to the rest position) - and this requires much less maintenance (and less returns, support calls etc.) as the keyboard ages and the friction in the action increases. The friction between sliding action parts in the P90 is kept low by using grease, and with time that is going to get dryer and less effective.

It is normal on grand pianos to install lead weights on the keys to make the downweight (the minimum weight to make the key go down smoothly) around 50 grams. When you install the weights, the key starts to move with only, say, 50 grams but it feels heavier than a weightless key (which required, say, 90 grams to just start) because the inertia is higher than before.

BUT, now you can play pianissimo with more ease and control the key depressing speed much better - your force range now starts from 50 grams and not 90.

At the moment I'm installing lead weights on the P90(!) to make it more like a real piano.

I did just one octave in the bass, but the feeling (without the sound, as I took it apart) is very close to that of a real piano...