Are keyboard players becoming a dying breed?

[Edgar Summers]

In my experience, most people don't care about MUSIC anywhere near as much as most musicians think.

I would say that for me (and many others) Music can be a profound experience. I've gotten chills listening to some piece of music over the years (a 1975 ELP concert comes to mind). I've also seen groups of people ignore a fantastic musician playing in a bar or restaurant.

 

I believe we mostly play because of our own love of music. Being appreciated is nice but it's not a reason to play.

 

For that matter, if we're a dying breed then I'll still keep playing. It's one of the things that dosen't suck about getting older! I play better now.

[Phred]

You guys are talking about keyboard driven music... In my experience, most of the public can't tell the difference between and guitar and a piano, and a synth, and a trumpet when it is burried in a mix. If you asked them to critically listen, they might be able to pick it out, but mostly they listen to the whole sound and are barely aware of the instruments in the tunes.

 

Take the NIN song Closer. All synths. But with Trent screaming obscene lyrics, and heavy hitting sounds, I would bet that most non musicians would assume the main instrument was a distorted guitar.

 

I had a friend tell me that he was not aware that the doors had a keyboard player.

 

(I posted this before in another thread). I was at a blues show with a girl who thought that the organ solos were being done by the 'Other' guitarist (the bass player). This was mainly because the organ player didn't move a muscle when he played.

 

I think that Dick's point that keyboardists need to be more exciting is truly valid. There are tonnes of good players around, but how often to you see someone who is truly exciting to watch? From personal experience I know that an audience is more interested in an energetic, visually exciting, but musically flawed performance. Much more so than a flawless, visually boring one.

 

I shared the stage once with a fantastic keyboard player. He was sooo much better than me. We each had our own rig and did about 5 mins of trading 8. Everytime he played he had really interesting amazing flawless original ideas and they we fantastic. Everytime I played I did my best, and am sure I repeated myself, and am sure I made mistakes. The difference is I played my heart out. I mashed the keys, I did swirly palm swipes, I kicked, I used a matchbook to hold down the high C. After the show I got so many compliments. I thanked people and said, the other guy was SOOO good. The general response was that I stole the show.

 

My 2cents.

[Phred]

Whoa that was long - sorry.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

I can't blame people for not picking out bands with keyboards. I really really think that if most keyboardists didn't hide really low in the mix and behind the drums, people would know they were playing

 

An example of instruments hiding in the mix(though not keyboards) is the "pop-punk" band Yellowcard. I heard their single on the radio and I picked out a guitar, a bass, and drums. When I watched their music video, there's a guy playing the fiddle. Why was he so low in the mix that you couldn't tell, especially since he was their most interesting member? (the hook, as it were)

 

The Metalcore band Chimaira is also very much guilty of both of these. I know their keyboardist/samples guy. Great guy, very cool. He can actually play pretty well, but is relegated mainly to doing samples and string pads, and setting his board on a riser near the drums. I know part of that is the band's choics, and part of that is his choice. The point is, on albums and live, he's so low in the mix that you wouldn't even know he was there.

 

As far as NIN, I dunno, blows me away that people wouldn't know there were keys involved. I'll ask a few non musical people I know and see what they have to say. I'm curious now.

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when I see a live band, I want then to be alive. I want them to be excited that they're living my dream. When I see keyboard players like Janne Warman (who is way more technically proficient than me) look like they'd rather be in the bus sleeping, it really turns me off. I just plain hate boring musicians (except you know, those of you that are boring musicians. Forumites get the exeption, as I'm sure you exclude me from your keytar hate)

[Phred]

Ask people what the main instrumentation of certains bands are. You will be surprised at the answers. Especially if they have never seen the band live...

[Jazzwee]

The point though is that this is nothing new. Keyboardists in the background. 1970's to 2006.

 

Thus it is not dying if it is the same as before. Unless of course the thread is "increasing the players in the keyboard breed".

 

BTW - I switched to piano/keyboards. So that's +1 to the total number. Baby steps.

[Cliffk]

Originally posted by Phred:

There are tonnes of good players around, but how often to you see someone who is truly exciting to watch?

Remember those photos our very own Eric once posted of himself doing his impressive thing at a gig, with his movable/inverted stand? He had that audience in thrall! Can't remember the name of that thread - anybody? By the way, where you at , Eric?

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Jazz, I know what you mean, but I know I've seen more and more bands with keyboards on DAT or CD or whatever. Is it that keyboardists just don't want to play live? Thats what it's starting to seem like

[Phred]

That's where I got my tilting when I solo idea. Eric's was way cooler, as his stand actually tilted. Mine I just lift with one hand while playing with this other...

[Mr. Nightime]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Jazz, I know what you mean, but I know I've seen more and more bands with keyboards on DAT or CD or whatever. Is it that keyboardists just don't want to play live? Thats what it's starting to seem like

I think it's more a case of the bands want that sound, but can't find a competent player to perform them live. Personally, I love to play live, and most of the players I know do too. But there are a lot more bands than there are keyboard players, so some bands are having to compromise.

My band is one of the better bands in the area. At times I can't make it to a gig because of interference from my day job. So my guys have to try to find a fill-in, and sometimes they just can't because all of the qualified players are already working. That's what I gathered was the original idea of this thread, that there are just not that many keyboardists out there that can handle themselves in a live gig situation, even though the bands want keys there. So the good players are working their asses off, and the bands that can't find someone are SOL.

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Aw, c'mon now, Lacuna Coil brought a DAT and their keyboard parts are easy enough for me to play. I mean large signed and touring bands that play original material. Bands that don't have day jobs, know what I mean? (I'm not in one of those bands ) Local bands don't really have much of a choice:p

 

Btw, saw a really bad band the other night. I was really excited as they brought a Fantom X7 on stage, and I was expecting some insane keys. I was granted the joy of seeing the guitarist hit the pad to play samples to start songs. Yay.

 

Phred, along those lines, when I had the JV-1000 as my main board (much easier to beat up) I would remove it from the stand for the end of our last song and thrash around with it, sort of a guitar/upright bass mix. The audience LOVED it. Our ending song is now too complicated for me to do that with, and in addition, the Triton just doesn't seem like it could handle it. If you ever really feel like making an impression though...

[Steve Force]

Last year I posted on Craigslist that I wanted to play some keys in a casual setting (jam, non-demanding band, etc) and was absolutely swamped with replies!

 

I chatted with one young college guy and determined our styles didn't match and he was so pissed off at me he ripped me a new a*hole via email! Guess he was so frustrated not being able to find a suitable keyboardist (well, he WAS also highly immature but that is another matter altogether..) that he lashed out at me, some 49 (then) year old *slightly* beer-gutted dude that was old enough to be his father.

 

Anyway, my experience is similar to what Mr. Nightime said--too few good keyboardist available.

 

I'll bet (and would probably win this bet..) that even with my limited chops I could play a paying gig EVERY night in the Metro-Detroit area if I wanted to.

[RABid]

I dont agree that keyboardists are keyboardists any more than I think drummers are drummers. John Bonham played a trap set. Karl Perazzo plays timbales. Raul Rekow plays congas. They are all drums but they are very different instruments that require different playing techniques. It is the same with piano, organ and synthesizers. I can play piano and organ but I consider myself a lead synthesist. The keys may look like a piano but the mentality is more akin to saxophone or guitar.

 

Robert

[RABid]

I dont think the guitar or perception of being cool is the biggest deterrent to future keyboardist. My worry is point and click, piano roll, chord menu using computer musicians that construct songs one event at a time while in loop mode. I worry that an entire era of musicians will miss out on the joy of spontaneous creation.

 

Robert

[soundscape]

Originally posted by RABid:

I dont think the guitar or perception of being cool is the biggest deterrent to future keyboardist. My worry is point and click, piano roll, chord menu using computer musicians that construct songs one event at a time while in loop mode. I worry that an entire era of musicians will miss out on the joy of spontaneous creation.

To me the big worry there is that they don't bother (maybe not because they aren't bothered, but because they don't realize they need to or the benefits) to learn about music in the first place.

[Eric VB]

[Caution! Big pics ahead!]

 

Originally posted by forceman:

I'll bet (and would probably win this bet..) that even with my limited chops I could play a paying gig EVERY night in the Metro-Detroit area if I wanted to.

Wow! I gotta get my keyboard chops up!

 

My wife spent many years taking classical piano lessons. She laughs at my (lack of) chops when I sit behind something with keys. (Granted, not my primary instrument, and my chops do kinda suck.)

 

Of course, I ask her to play keys for me from a verbal chord chart. She tells me to write it out for her -- standard notation, note for note -- and she'll get back to me.

 

I just got done taking a music technology class. We just briefly touched on arps. The main point of the class wasn't how to develop great keys chops. It was how to make music using technology. I finished the assignments a lot faster using note-at-a-time entry rather than real time. The piano majors entered everything in real time. (They probably didn't even have to quantize, dammit! )

 

Er, anyway, back to topic. I saw That 80s Band (or was it Mega 80s? I get them confused). I thought the guy playing keys did a good job, but I just had to laugh when he executed some karate-chop synth triggers. Ok, it's a lame part to sit there and just hit the trigger once every measure, and he's trying to add some showmanship, but it just didn't work for me.

 

Maybe if you wore a short pink dress they'd put you up front with your Farfisa, too.

http://www.thecharms.net/galleries/florida/images/dscn0785.jpg

The Charms put on a good show. Oh, doesn't hurt to show a little leg during practice, either.

http://www.thecharms.net/galleries/spring06/3_tour0406_cleveland/3_tour0406_cleveland-Images/5.jpg

(Yes, the lead singer Ellie took over keys.)

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Blue JC:

My concern is for the future of live keyboard playing.

I'd ask the question: Is live performance an anachronism?

 

(I hope I'm not going to get pelted for asking this!)

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

I don't know what anachronism means, and the dictionary said that it meant something out of it's chronological place. I'd bet that's not the definition you wanted. I've heard that word a lot, but I gots no idea.

[Eric VB]

I think soundscape means that with concerts containing more and more pre-recorded material -- a la Milli Vanilli -- can we consider anything to be a live performance anymore?

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

I don't know what anachronism means, and the dictionary said that it meant something out of it's chronological place. I'd bet that's not the definition you wanted. I've heard that word a lot, but I gots no idea.

OS X (Oxford) dictionary:

 

anachronism noun

a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, esp. a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned : everything was as it would have appeared in centuries past apart from one anachronism, a bright yellow construction crane.

an act of attributing a custom, event, or object to a period to which it does not belong.

 

 

Basically, is it an "outdated" practice?

[Dick Ward MP Hall of Fame]

Thanks Soundscape, always wondered how to use that one properly

 

 

Yeah, I guess it seems to be more and more. I hope not though, I really love doing it!

[soundscape]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

I think soundscape means that with concerts containing more and more pre-recorded material -- a la Milli Vanilli -- can we consider anything to be a live performance anymore?

Not quite. He means that, given that people who like music are spending all day listening to 1,000s of songs to their iPod, where do live performances fit in? Where does the record-tour economic model fit in today?

 

(I mean, even movie theatres, AFAIK, are losing attendance.)

 

As a major act, if you're seriously on stage (as in touring, not doing the promotional rounds on TV shows), then I think miming ceased cutting it a long time ago. As for the performer's voice never appearing on recordings, the whole Milli Vanilli thing was such a scandal/disaster (ending up in class action lawsuits that meant the record company had to offer rebates, and in one of the Milli Vanilli pair commited suicide a few years ago) that I think it's made anyone seriously think twice over doing it again.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Yeah, I guess it seems to be more and more. I hope not though, I really love doing it!

I don't think it will disappear altogether. But it seems like it's increasingly a niche?

[soundscape]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Maybe if you wore a short pink dress they'd put you up front with your Farfisa, too.

No complaints over seeing that here.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by soundscape:

Not quite.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[i really do think Brittney ain't singing when she's on stage, but I got nothing to back that up with, and too lazy to google. ]

[soundscape]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Originally posted by soundscape:

Not quite.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[i really do think Brittney ain't singing when she's on stage, but I got nothing to back that up with, and too lazy to google. ]

I believe it's her singing doubled with her singing on a pre-recording. Just how much the mix is between her live singing and the pre-recorded vocal is another question.

 

I think she sits down to sing a ballad in the middle of her concerts. (i.e., these days a major performer had better be willing to prove they can sing.)

 

But, it is certainly true that many "big concerts" (whether Britney or a major band) today are more of a sort of spectacle/"live music video" than anything resembling a traditional concert.

[soundscape]

Here we go, here's Britney live:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grJlm1DmeVE

 

(I can't stand that song, though.)

[PianoJazz1951]

...you know, dudes.

If more keyboardists mastered self-promotion along with

their techinque, we'd be a stronger force in rock.

Aside from that, we're still a force in jazz...

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by PianoJazz1951:

...you know, dudes.

If more keyboardists mastered self-promotion along with

their techinque, we'd be a stronger force in rock.

Aside from that, we're still a force in jazz...

Yup. Leadership in jazz bands tend to fall on piano players by default. Probably because of the music theory required.

 

 

Originally posted by Dick Ward (MP Hall of Fame Wannabe):

Jazz, I know what you mean, but I know I've seen more and more bands with keyboards on DAT or CD or whatever. Is it that keyboardists just don't want to play live? Thats what it's starting to seem like

This is new info to me. That's interesting. So maybe BlueJC is correct but differently. Maybe there's increased demand and not enough supply (the opposite of dying).

 

In any case, this has been a fun discussion. It makes me appreciate that I chose the correct instrument, especially with the great people in this group!

[soundscape]

Originally posted by PianoJazz1951:

...you know, dudes.

If more keyboardists mastered self-promotion along with

their techinque, we'd be a stronger force in rock.

Aside from that, we're still a force in jazz...

Is rock as a whole in a good condition right now? Are there too many well-known guitarists in famous bands these days? Doesn't seem like there's a "Gn'R" today.