Piano Accompaniment - who should take the lead?

[Blue JC]

I had a very frustrating experience last night. I was subbing for a friend whose band was playing a fundraiser.

 

They have a girl singer who really likes big, dramatic ballads, torch songs and barnburners. Lots of piano and vocal intros, entire first choruses and piano and vocal only out-sections.

 

They use commercial fake books (kind of like Real Books) keyed for Male and Female singers so a lot of the important parts are actually charted out - including the intro piano parts.

 

We are playing the first set when the first of her big ballads comes up.There's a grand pause written at the end in which I play the set-up chord and wait for her big finish. I'm looking at her - she's looking at me and the grand pause is becoming a grand canyon pause. Finally I catch the leader out of the corner of my eye giving me frantic "go ahead" signals. I'm thinking "go ahead with what?" I'm accompanying her - she needs to make the next move. So I start the out section and she comes in with her vocal ending.

 

After the set is over, she storms off stage without speaking to anyone. The leader comes over to me and says she doesn't take the lead in any of these parts - the piano accompaniment always has to make the first move.

 

I told him that I had never heard of that before - I was there to accompany her. How could I possibly take the lead on a vocal cue if I didn't know where she wanted to go? He said she'll go wherever I go but she'll never make the first move.

 

Then he said something that I found incredible: all of the girl singers he has ever worked with were like that.

 

When I told him that none of the girl singers I had ever worked with in 36 years were like that he looked at me like I was crazy. Every singer I know would be mad as hell if I didn't let them have as much space as they wanted in this musical situation.

 

Now he's got me questioning my own sanity.

 

What have your experiences been?

 

Best,

JC

[Michelle ggurl]

Never heard of that. I don't have immense experience accompanying singers, but when I have, if it's just piano and vox, the singer leads. Male and female.

 

I think Gangsu has a lot of experience accompanying singers; maybe she can chime in here.

[JeffLearman]

That would puzzle the crap out of me too.

 

Bottom line though, the baton should pass back and forth depending on the situation, for songs with fluid tempos. For example, I play (on guitar) "Solitude", pretty much copying the version with just jazz guitar and Ella Fitzgerald from the Duke Ellington songbook. I've played it with a number of different vocalists, and there are places where I set the pace, and places where the vocals have to come in first, and it's a lot of fun working that give and take until it works out. It's always dicey the first couple times, but any decent vocalist figures it out pretty quickly.

 

However, the vocalists usually want to own the endings! That or the lead guitarist (YKWIM).

 

In any case, thinkgs like this usually are best worked out in practice. The sit-in can't be the bandleader, so those cues have to come from SOMEWHERE. Sounds like you were sitting in for the bandleader and the other players weren't didn't have big enough feet to step up to the plate (to mix a metaphor).

[Garrafon]

My experience has been that it depends on the experience of the singer. A good, solid, confident, experienced singer will be able to take the lead and "drag" you along where he/she wants to go.

 

A less confident, less well versed singer will need you help him/her make him/her look good. That is my experience anyway.

 

In my opinion, it SHOULD be as you say, but, as I say, it depends on the person. I've never accompanied someone for the first time as a sit in, so I've always been able to feel the situation out first to know whether I need to pull the singer along or whether I can sit back and let them lead.

[Dave Horne]

I've worked with all kinds of singers. The less professional expect to be lead by the piano player I've found. The more professional make it a corroborative experience but I always find it best to have a little chat before hand regardless of their level.

 

I played a concert here many years ago with a nationally known Dutch female singer (the Dutch guys here know who she is, her father was also famous); and we only had one rehearsal the afternoon of the concert. She had many hits here that are known by everyone except me (since I'm not Dutch and never heard her music before the job). There was one tune where it's just she and I for most of the tune and she had a pickup which was not written into my chart, I just had chord changes or a sketch. I think I was supposed to come in on beat two or the and of two but there was no tempo I believe at this point. I asked her how do we do this? I asked her specifically since I noticed this problem in rehearsal. She never gave me a clear answer and I quickly figured out she really didn't know her own charts, she just knew when to sing and when not to sing. At any rate, I came in slightly wrong and corrected it immediately since I was expecting something at that particular spot.

 

So to repeat, I find having a little talk with the singer before the job the best way to approach things but even that can't prevent little derailments. (Time for a bunch of singer jokes? How can you tell when there's a singer at the front door? .... )

[Finale]

I guess just a little communication between musicians/singers before the gig would have solved the issue.

[cnegrad]

I hate embarassing moments like that. You're right of course, except in the case of a song where the melody doesn't start at that beginning of the bar; like "Embraceable You". Then, you'd be responsible for giving her the leading chord on the downbeat before she could come in.

 

Sounds like she has some maturing to do, and not just musically; particularly when it comes to communicating with a sub pianist before the show begins. Why she would expect a sub to "just know" is just plain ignorant, and she is completely responsible for the result. If the bandleader has been coddling her up to this point, then he's to blame as well.

[BluMunk]

If you're sitting in, I find it bizarre that you'd be expected to take the lead in those situations unrehearsed, and that the singer would be huffy about it afterwards (*refrains from making blanket generalizations about singers*).

 

In my experience in cabaret and musical theatre-type settings, typically (but not always), it's the singer that begins the ending.

[Bobsk8]

The singer should take the lead, if they have any level of experience. Sounds like you were dealing with an amateur, who got in a snit because she wanted to blame someone other than herself for a goofup. By the way, I have played for many name singers and never had one that expected me to "take the lead"

 

bob

[gangsu]

Originally posted by Bobsk8:

The singer should take the lead, if they have any level of experience.

Yeah, the singer should take the lead. On intros, outros, any intimate moment if she expects anybody to pay attention. Blue JC, you're not crazy. From hindsight, I guess you could have taken a deep breath and deaked her out (deaked? I don't believe I've ever tried to spell that word before...), ie fooled her into thinking it was time. Who knows. For sure, it wasn't your fault.

 

All miscues aside, I have to say I rarely if ever find a singer pulling me along. Actually, I don't think it's the singer's role to pull anybody, it's the accompanist's responsibility to stay on the front edge of the beat. Because if you don't, ...well somebody's gotta have a vision.

 

Generally speaking if I have the time and opportunity to rehearse, I"ll purposefully set an incorrect tempo and maybe do some coaching on taking control. Otherwise, man you can play an entire set and when it's over they might say, gee everything felt a bit slow! I've had singers demonstrate their idea of a faster tempo - it's the same darn thing without the long notes.

 

Sorry, I deal with a fair number of non-experts.

 

Once in a while you meet somebody who really gets it. They communicate. You'd think communication would be first priority in any musician's game. Nobody's leading anybody, it just is. Hey, this reminds me of a very cool video I watched recently. It was on that Herbie thread, a couple of frames back from the infamous keytar video. That singer was sooo cool and so involved. Pure bliss.

 

PS Geekgurl, thanks for the shout. You've got a wicked memory! Maybe I should keep that in mind.

[Dave Horne]

Here's a link to a discussion between a singer regarding the ending of a tune and the rest of the band ... as well as tee shirts. Big fun. The Guys Get Shirts - Paul Anka

[Joe Muscara]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Here's a link to a discussion between a singer regarding the ending of a tune and the rest of the band ... as well as tee shirts. Big fun. The Guys Get Shirts - Paul Anka

God - I wish he'd stop saying "where's Joe?"

[Prague]

Amazing how people have to pay for bands that aren't rehearsed.

[Tony Bennett]

Double post.

[Tony Bennett]

As some have said, I would agree it depends on how experienced the singer is. In my current situation my singer does on occassion wait for me to add my "flurish" - but that's just because I'm so "flurishfull".

[David Loving]

Thanks for putting up that Paul Anka audio- I just love that thing.

[BluesKeys]

JC, You are not crazy. As others have stated it is up to the singer to set the intros and outros. They can almost be legato if she carries it that way. I find working with professional singers they want the space to articulate the words. I know I like having that control when I sing which is easy since I am playing too.

 

I liked your description of grand pause, to grand canyon pause. I would have said pregnant pause, and wouldn't have had a larger size to go to.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Prague:

Amazing how people have to pay for bands that aren't rehearsed.

A Paul Anka fan, are ya?

 

The situation on the mp3 file seems more like the band needs someone to take charge.

 

In a large group it makes more sense to have one person in charge though one gets the feeling that Paul-I-Did-It Sideways-Anka would have the last word regardless.

 

To further dump on Anka, he might have made a ton of money but his tunes do nothing for me. (After listening again to that tape, his tunes do even less.) I never liked My Way or Having My Baby ... horrible. [rant over]

[Prague]

I was commenting on the original post.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Prague:

I was commenting on the original post.

Now I understand, sorry.

[Blue JC]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Here's a link to a discussion between a singer regarding the ending of a tune and the rest of the band ... as well as tee shirts. Big fun. The Guys Get Shirts - Paul Anka

Ahh - the Buddy Rich school of bandleading. I don't miss that nonsense at all.

 

Thanks for the responses folks. They told me this with such conviction I was starting to doubt myself. On-stage embarassment sure brings out the worst in people.

 

This sub job was set-up for some time. The regular keyboardist's daughter is in the playoffs and he wanted time off to see her games.

 

I offered to rehearse with this band but they told me that they don't rehearse. "Just dress nice, show up on time and play the book." I guess that says it all.

 

Thanks,

JC

[Prague]

Originally posted by Blue JC:

I offered to rehearse with this band but they told me that they don't rehearse.

Famous last words.

 

I'd refuse to hire a "band" that never rehearsed and just played songs from a music book. This is how DJ's get gigs.

[Eric Iverson]

I've never accompanied a singer that I'd never rehearsed with, but then again guitarists don't usually get asked to!

 

I always try to follow the singer, but yes, indeed, you do have to give them solid time, especially less experienced ones. If they come in early or late, you have to adapt!

 

Reminds me of the old saying, "lead, follow, or get out of the way." It's frustrating when the singer won't or can't do any of the three!

 

Come to think of it, a couple of Sundays ago me and a guitarist friend were accompanying a pastor who was leading songs. We rehearsed the songs, which we had played before but a long time ago, (no sheet music or chord charts); and then went over the songs with the pastor, and naturally had to change them to other keys to suit his voice. The last song, we hit the first chord, and he started singing in yet a third key, leaving us floundering! ()#*$)#@*)# And he said, "if you guys don't know it, you don't have to play!"

 

But he doesn't really qualify as a singer! (Wonderful man though!)

[InfoSal]

How was the grand pause indicated?

Were there a series of chords after the grand pause?

What was the tune?

Was there a large sophisticated audience listening closely?

 

I guess that singer doesn't know how to do a "cadenza" like ending and her method is to always wait for some chords to fumble over. I would try to not worry about, and if anybody was really listening they probably didn't care. It's not like you were in concert backing Diana Krall. Mistakes are par for the course, live music is not always perfect.

 

definition:

"A cadenza is a portion near the end of a movement.... in which the orchestra stops playing, leaving the soloist to play alone in free time."

[Dave Pierce]

BlueJC,

 

I've played with a lot of female singers, although mostly in a full-band situation, not as an accompanist.

 

But, several tunes have this same situation with a rubato section or whatever. I always follow the singer.

 

I also do a fair amount of subbing, and I would never take the lead as a sub unless explicitly asked to do so. The fact that you were expected to take the lead, as a sub, with no discussion -- tells me that these guys are clueless.

 

Did the singer talk to you later? Or was storming off the last thing you saw? I have to admit -- I've left the stage without speaking to anyone on break before. When things go wrong, I usually take it in stride, but if I do get pissed at either myself or other band members, it's a bad idea for me to open my mouth until I've cooled off. When this happens, though, I always make a point of doing two things:

 

1) walking off calmly and slowly, making sure that it does NOT look like a storm-off

 

2) cracking a joke or something once I've cooled off, just so every knows that I didn't stay pissed.

 

--Dave