clusterchord Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 hi guys i have an offer for a mint condition Chroma. price is great, no shipping - just local pickup by my brother in Bay Area who will take it direct to my synth tech (Montalbano) for routine check-up. all membrane switches are working, everything else working , in tune etc.. now, this is present situation. i'm worried about viability of maintaining things this way in long term... Marino, i know you had it for many yrs, and you mentioned unreliabilty as one of the reasons you rid of it. could tell me about this in more detail please? otoh, what did you like about it, that you thought you couldnt get on any other board out there? matt_stubbs, your thoughts would be greatly appreciated as well.. unfortunately i only know demos. rather extensive ones, but still.. demos. wont have a chance to try it first hand i'm afraid. but i love what i heard so far, and i love what i learned about its arhitecture and flexibility in re-structuring the two multimode CEM filters etc etc.. went all over rhodeschroma.com http://www.babic.com - music for film/theatre, audio-post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Array Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Dude, go for it. I LOOOOVE the Chroma sound, with its discrete VCO's and CEM dualmode filters. Thats not something you see (or hear) every day! This may pique your curiosity as well though: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29552&item=7335228037&rd=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sizzlemeister Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Just wait and get the OBx first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Array Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 The OB-X seems to be a lot more common though...its not every day that you see a Chroma in good condition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sizzlemeister Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 MMMmmmmm.... Are those any more stable than an OBx? I get the Oberheim bug when I sees one of those. Any way to MIDI it up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 My two cents: The OBx is a rather primitive fixed-architecture synth with lopass filters, a plastic action and no keyboard velocity. It does one thing well (that Oberheim sound). 5 voices only. The Chroma is the most advanced analog polysynth ever made, except for the Obie Xpander and the modern Andromeda. Programmable architecture, lopass and hipass filters. It was the first synth with a velocity sensitive keyboard. And oh what a keyboard - a wonderful weighted wooden action. Pedals and levers fully programmable. Release velocity and envelope switching. The depth of programming is magnificent. 8 or 16 voice polyphony depending on the patch architecure. Oops, gotta run for a minute - to be continued... Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Part two - the bad stuff. The Chroma has a lot of power, but it's hidden behind a single slider / LED interface. I found it worthwhile and rewarding to master it, but it puts some people off. There is a programming chart that lays all the parameters out which is invaluable. Reliability wise, almost all of the Chroma's reputation for problems can be laid in one place: the power supply. Much like the Prophet, as designed it's just not quite up to the task. There were several field upgrades released to attempt to correct it with somewhat successful results. The best solution is to replace the PS with a modern supply. A Chroma with a good power supply can be a reliable instrument indeed. I gigged mine in the road for probably 8 years. Initially it had some problems, which were sorted out and things were fine after that. The Chroma today enjoys one of the best support groups of any vintage synth. These guys can talk you through the power supply replacement and any other problems that your machine develops. Also, there is a great deal of history on the machine. See: Rhodes Chroma Website Since you can't try it before you buy it, try to decide if a "player's machine" is interesting to you. If you don't like it, the Chroma site provides a good place to advertise it to other enthusiasts. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clusterchord Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 Originally posted by mate_stubb: The Chroma is the most advanced analog polysynth ever made, except for the Obie Xpander and the modern Andromeda. Programmable architecture, lopass and hipass filters. It was the first synth with a velocity sensitive keyboard. And oh what a keyboard - a wonderful weighted wooden action. Pedals and levers fully programmable. Release velocity and envelope switching. The depth of programming is magnificent. Oops, gotta run for a minute - to be continued... Hey Mate thanks for the comments. yes, thats exactly what draws me to it, beautiful keyboard, advanced arhitecture and that unique and fat sound. what does put me off a little bit is - the power supply hassle, and big probability of frying the voice boards if you don't update to a new switching supply.. then the midi thing where, if you want the best one, you need to built that CEB pcb, to avoid going thru 25pin interface then there's fan upgrade etc etc. it seems like a lot of additional work/cash. how did you deal with these quirks ? i mean, every vintage has quirks of some sort, i'm kinda used to it, but i'm just trying to get a proper perspective here.. (obx, for example, needs trimmers replaced for ones with higher resolution, IC sockets and pots can become problematic etc.. ) oh yes, how do you find the software generated envelopes ? are they on the faster or slower side of the spectrum ? (compared to others that use those as well..Xp, T8, P600, MKS80/70 etc , ) Originally posted by mate_stubb: The OBx is a rather primitive fixed-architecture synth with lopass filters, a plastic action and no keyboard velocity. It does one thing well (that Oberheim sound). 5 voices only.i agree with you , problem is i want that one sound very much. it is THE sound. btw, OB-X can be 8 voice polyphonic - the link Array provided is for one OB-SX which is a 5 voice CEM-based preset-version of OB-Xa. which is something very different from discrete based obx. http://www.babic.com - music for film/theatre, audio-post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clusterchord Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 mate, it seems we posted at the same time.. yeah i've read just about everything in detail on the site. so i gather you replaced your pwr with a new switching supply ? http://www.babic.com - music for film/theatre, audio-post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 MIDI - just get a ChromaCult converter box. Ken Yparilla, the developer, recently made a new batch. You can plug it in externally, or mount it inside. There's no point in leaving the 25 pin interface unused unless you are connecting two chromas together, or trying to run the old sequencer software on an apple II. Fan mod - forget it. Not necessary, especially if you have the ps replaced. Both my Chroma and Expander have the original power supplies. The Chroma's did finally die recently after 25 years of service. I'll be doing the ps replacement soon when I get a chance. Envelopes - slower than I'd like, but not nearly the worst. There is a filter capacitor on the voice board that limits the response time of the envelopes which could be experimented with. I'd say better than the P600 for sure. I'm able to do drum sounds with decent crack, which requires a pretty fast sweep. As for the Obie sound, doesn't the Matrix rack box provide an affordable alternative to a full OBx? Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 My curiosity was revived by our conversation, and I found these gems from the email archives on the Chroma site, speaking about envelope attack speed: -------------------------------------------- David Clarke [21030085++] · Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:32:22 -050 -------------------------------------------- I just did a couple measurements. There looks to be 3 - 20mS of 'keyboard' lag. That means there can be as little as 3mS and as much as 20mS delay after a key is struck until audio output appears. One big factor concerns the keyboard algorithm chosen (for instance, hitting a single key in Polyphonic mode is approx 3mS, but using the same program but with a ALL CHAN poly keyboard algorithm selected resulted in a 20ms delay to the first audio out.) I also looked at the min/max Attack/Decay/Release rates. With "Attack" set at minimum, the AD(S)R attack ramp time is approx 4.7mS (i.e., 4.7mS from the start of the attack pulse to reaching the full attack control voltage). It is interesting to note that the service manual points out that a capacitor was specifically added to slow the VCA attack response of the voice cards ("...the 0.1uf capacitor on this input slows the control voltage changes down just enough to make a sharp attack or release sound like a soft pop and not a sharp tick..."). The approx. 5mS min. value is almost exactly what you'd expect just from that value of capacitor alone. Out of curiosity I did a measurement with this cap. removed. As would be expected, in this case (with the panel parameter set to 'instant') the VCA control voltage is immeasurably sharp (no lag at all). I saved some plots from the 'scope, as well as tabulated the attack times, etc. I'll keep these on hand and when I get a few moments I'll try to jot down a few notes to rationalize the values (e.g., delay x is because of 1024uS program loop so many times, etc.) ------------------------------------------- Åke Danielson [21010068] · Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:59:00 +0100 ------------------------------------------- Do I understand this rightly? Can you make the Chroma more percussive by removing this capacitor. I always found the Chroma's slow attack time to be its biggest drawback. I capacitor removal is the solution, I'll get rid of them all!!! Where is it located? ------------------------------------------- David Clarke [21030085++] · Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:47:16 -0500 ------------------------------------------- Yes, possibly. The biggest change will be seen when the VCA Attack, Decay and/or Release are set to their minimum settings (i.e., the "instant" setting). I would hope/expect that this will allow a much faster initial response. There is one capacitor per channel, meaning there are two capacitors per voice board. The capacitors in question are C43 and C44 (0.1uF), connected to pin 5 and pin 10 of Z16 (respectively). The location of these components are shown in the following picture (the blue/green capacitors pointed to by the yellow arrows). If you did wish to experiment with a modified board I would recommend only making the change on one card, and removing all other voice cards (so only 1 voice card - a modified voice card - is present). In that way you'll be able to determine if the changes are audible. If you do decide to try this, I'm sure the whole group would be iterested to hear what you find. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Array Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Originally posted by clusterchord: the link Array provided is for one OB-SX which is a 5 voice CEM-based preset-version of OB-Xa. which is something very different from discrete based obx. Ahhh, I got a bit confused. VintageSynth.com says that it uses the same components as the OB-X: http://www.vintagesynth.com/oberheim/obsx.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Originally posted by clusterchord: Marino, i know you had it for many yrs, and you mentioned unreliabilty as one of the reasons you rid of it. could tell me about this in more detail please? Just seen your message. Much have been said already, but FWIW, here's what I can add: I've had the Chroma for many, many years, and I regret having sold it. I stopped using it onstage because it was unreliable and heavy. At least once every year, it required some kind of service. Some voice cards failed, others refused to tune, and sometimes the instrument just locked and stopped working despite my attempts to reset it. There have been several operating system upgrades over the years, plus a few minor upgrades like indications to change components. I upgraded my Chroma every time, and in the end it was more reliable, but still unstable somehow. But at that point I was only using it in my studio, so I could stand the occasional lock. I have no idea if and in what amount the inadequate power supply was the cause of the other problems, but I'm told that with a new, modern one installed, the whole instrument is a lot more stable. In my opinion, here's a series of reasons pro and con getting a Chroma: Pro: - Sound. I was initially believing that the Chroma would give me a polyphonic, programmable ARP 2600 (I didn't know much about CEM chips at the time...). It wasn't the case, obviously. The Chroma doesn't have that 'compact', piercing sound; it has its own kind of bigness, though, but more mellow - let's say that the Chroma sound is 'dense', but more 'liquid' than the early ARPs. With time, it really grew on me, and I made incredible sounds on it. Stacking oscillators works really well (unlike on the Andromeda, for example) to make huge sounds, if that's what you're after. Of course, my advice would be to play the beast yourself if you haven't already. The Chroma has a very personal sound - some love it, some hate it. As for me, I would choose a Chroma over a Prophet 5, for example, any day. - Programmability. Despite a few limitations, the Chroma has a very respectable modulation matrix, and a powerful secret weapon: The structure algorithms. This is the first parameter you choose when making a sound from scratch; you can choose 16 different ways to place the modules in the audio path. This way you get filter feedback, two filters in series, ring mod, and all kind of modular-like wildness. To me, this is the most desirable aspect of the machine. I've programmed oboes, vibraphones and clarinets on this instrument, which have been chosen to be on big-production records, when a Kurzweil 250 full of samples was available. If you like to tweak, you can get lost on the Chroma. - Playability. Yes, it has a single slider for data. And without that damn piece of paper with all the modulations written down, you can forget it. But the instrument feels gorgeous all the same, to me at least. The wooden keys, majestic appearance, and large sound, make playing the Chroma one of the most satisfying experiences a synth player could have. Cons: - It's big. Large. Bulky. It occupies a *lot* of space - and it's heavy, so it's not easily moved. You'll probably have to rethink your whole playing/recording place if you get one. Be sure to take this aspect into account. - The envelopes are really slow. I mean, really. The envelopes on the Matrix-12, for example, are quite slow, but these ones are champions of laziness. You can compensate for this inside your sequencer, but it's not fun. - Well, there's always the matter of reliability. If a voice card fails (a common occurrence in my Chroma days), you're not going to find one easily nowadays. - Consider that you'll have to spend for a change of power supply (it's an *huge* one) and a MIDI interface, other than the cost of the instrument. I hope this can help your decision (but by all means, try to play it for a while before committing). And if by chance you get it and don't like it, send me an email. Maybe I'll make some more money in the coming months... Keep us posted! Carlo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clusterchord Posted July 9, 2005 Author Share Posted July 9, 2005 Originally posted by mate_stubb: My curiosity was revived by our conversation, and I found these gems from the email archives on the Chroma site, speaking about envelope attack speed... ------------------------------------------- ...Do I understand this rightly? Can you make the Chroma more percussive by removing this capacitor. ------------------------------------------- ..If you do decide to try this, I'm sure the whole group would be iterested to hear what you find. wow!! mate, thats fascinating. i see the dates are 2003, so did anybody experiment with this after all ? maybe contacting david clarke would be in order. if someone knows it ought to be him. btw, david claims that his CEB pcb placed inside the machine has lower midi latency than the standard syntech retrofit going to 25pin. Marino, thanks a lot. Exactly the info i was looking for. it seems that even making your own vouice board is viable - if you have time and manage to locate those few cems and tempcos. Originally posted by marino: And if by chance you get it and don't like it, send me an email. Maybe I'll make some more money in the coming months... hehe, now i KNOW i gotta get it. but its still up in the air. i cant reach the seller no more. and, as somebody pointed out , the posibility of local pick up is the sole reason why i find this deal very tempting. if this deal doesnt go thru, i wont be looking for another one, dont want to hassle with shipping, additional service etc.. http://www.babic.com - music for film/theatre, audio-post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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