How many of you make a living in music?

[shniggens]

Just curious how many of you make a living solely by playing or songwriting. How did you make it?

 

This does not include those that produce for a living. You need money to make money in that field.

 

Please share your success stories.

 

[Botch.]

I did for one summer. That's why I'll never depend just on music, and fellow musicians, for a living ever again. It will always be a self-paying hobby for me.

 

Sorry, that wasn't much of a "success" story, was it?

[shniggens]

Actually, that's a pretty common story. That's what I hear from most musicians I know and have talked to.

 

Being an Ogden, Utard, you have skiing to pay for, too!

 

I'm looking at what sets the successful "career" musicians apart from the self-paying hobbyists as you so eloquently put it.

 

[robmix]

My wife and I are a songwriting duo. We live on that and producing as the two very much go hand-in-hand in todays market. I started out as every songwriter does - a four track in my bedroom. That grew to an 8 track and a couple keyboards. I interned one summer at an ad agency who, during a project at the end of the summer, asked if I could write some music for a TV commercial. I wrote the demo and once they gave me the go ahead I maxed out my credit card to buy a DAT machine and two new keyboards. Paid that off and did it again on the next project. A few years later our big break came when we did the demo for an unsigned artist that got signed to RCA and went on to sell quite a few records.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by shniggens:

I'm looking at what sets the successful "career" musicians apart from the self-paying hobbyists as you so eloquently put it.

Well, most successful career musicians get where they are by being willing to do ANYthing - jingles, weddings, corporate gigs, whatever the current trend is that pays. And be very well versed in a lot of different styles.

 

People who want to make a living in music and are very stylized - i.e. play in an original band with a specific sound and it's not currently the most popular one - are going to have a hard time of it. Same if you're in a cover bar band.

 

I was making a pretty good living in a cover band at one time, playing frat parties, military bases and that sort of thing. And later I was making a pretty good living as an engineer - but most of what I had to engineer was hair metal bands cuz that's what everybody's bread and butter was at the time. It was the popular thing. Nowadays most engineers that are making a living have to do hip hop, and/or "nu metal," whether they like it or not. And even if you basically like those styles, keep in mind that you're still going to have to take on a lot of very mediocre work in all likelihood, because there just aren't enough truly talented and inspiring musicians to go around. Unless you can land a full time gig with somebody you really admire, and of course those job openings are few.

 

In the end I wasn't enjoying myself doing that kind of work and considered it not worth it just to be able to say I was a music biz professional. Nowadays I supplement my income with other work and I only do the musical projects I really love and WANT to do. That suits me much better, because when it comes down to it I'm really quite picky about what I like, and working on music I can't stand REALLY bums me out. To the point where at the time I quit working at music full time, I was willing to do $5 an hour temp jobs just to not have to do THAT. But that's just me. If you like and can play a wide variety of stuff, have a great attitude and don't care what kind of gig it is, then you can be a career professional and do quite well at it.

[Magpel]

Not me. For about 2 years, after my last serious band broke up, I made maybe a quarter of my modest income from writing music for theater and middling corporate stuff--training CDs, educational animations, etc. As I prefer writing songs to instrumental music, this was maybe only a quarter satisfying. I never really got a good commercial demo together. I listen back now and I hear: great ideas, average to poor production and execution.

 

So, number me among the passionate (and unashamed) hobbyists who do only and exactly what they feel like doing in music, for a small and transitory audience. It is not easy to preserve space in life for unpaid passions, but I manage to.

 

If paying work seeks me out out, however, I don't exactlty run away screaming.

 

And I know that my best work is still ahead of me, so one never knows, does one?

[Steve LeBlanc]

being a professional entertainer is tough, it takes a lot of compromise and humility

 

since I recently lost my office job and prospects for another one look like shit so far, I'm actually considering going back to being an entertainer for my daily bread...scary stuff since I'm basically starting over

 

ugh, not a very happy camper this month...we'll see what kinda' gig I can find (office or entertainer)

 

If I get a killer gig that pays my bills on a regular basis I'll report back

 

[robmix]

Originally posted by shniggens:

Actually, that's a pretty common story. That's what I hear from most musicians I know and have talked to.

 

Being an Ogden, Utard, you have skiing to pay for, too!

 

I'm looking at what sets the successful "career" musicians apart from the self-paying hobbyists as you so eloquently put it.

 

The ability to adapt and deliver. I'm lucky in that I listen to pretty much everything but Polka and hardcore Rap so there's very few projects that come along that I'm not interested in. But I see a lot of guys who will only work on rock projects or only write R&B music, etc. That's cool but you increase your chances of success exponentially if you're into more than one genre of music. When I started assisting back in the day the studio was mainly booked by R&B clients. I wasn't totally into the music most of the time but I learned a lot and it led to amazing opportunities for me. I don't mind working for a bit on a project I'm not in love with if I think it will lead to something better. It's a daoist principle called investing in loss. But there's still projects I turn down.

[coyote]

Best of luck, man. Hope you land something awesome!

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

since I recently lost my office job and prospects for another one look like shit so far, I'm actually considering going back to being an entertainer for my daily bread...scary stuff since I'm basically starting over(

In answer to shniggnes' question: I once made my living playing drums. Did that for almost a decade. That stopped about a dozen yars ago.

[shniggens]

Originally posted by coyote:

I once made my living playing drums. Did that for almost a decade. That stopped about a dozen yars ago.

Why did it stop?

[Steve LeBlanc]

I don't mind working for a bit on a project I'm not in love with if I think it will lead to something better. It's a daoist principle called investing in loss. But there's still projects I turn down.

yeah, that's tough one (deciding whether to turn down a gig)...since I'm not totally desperate yet I recently turned down a paying gig (something many working musicians just don't do ). The artist is obviously talented and has decent songs but his voice, I just don't think I could stand to hear him sing that way on a regular basis.

 

ah but I may regret not taking the gig when I see him on VH1 or whatever...haha

[linwood]

For the past several years I've just been doing jingles, before that I played gigs. I've never really done anything but music. Like robmix said, it helps to be really open minded and to be able to listen to Ralph Stanley with the same intensity that you listen to Trane. I never thought I'd end up doing this, but I make good bread, I guess, and playing 6 nights a week for so many years took it's toll. I'd love to be doing cd projects with nice budgets, but it just didn't happen for me. What I'm doing now is cool. I have a small project studio in the house and the fax machine spits out new gigs daily, the credit card thing on my site pays my mortgage, life's good...

[Dave Horne]

I've made a living in music for almost all of my adult life; I'm now 54.

 

I started out as a church organist when I was 14 and quit that job after six months or so. The ratio between money received and time spent to get the job done was not in my favor.

 

I played weekends all through high school mostly with guys in their 40's.

 

I played with a trio (singer, drums, B3) from age 19 to 24 or so in and around Philadelphia and Trenton (the Tommy Maris Trio).

 

At 24, I joined the military and was the pianist for the USMA Band at West Point from 1974 to 1995. When I left at age 44 our big band library had more than 2100 charts ... that was a great learning experience. My reading improved tremendously and I learned how to play in various styles. I played big band piano, combo piano, cocktail piano and even organ for the hockey games. During my 20 year incarceration I also managed my own wedding band and played about 15 years worth of Sunday brunches at local hotels and restaurants as well. I saved and invested my money during that time and retired at 44 with a modest pension (E7/SFC) along with those investments. I never embraced the military way of thinking, but I did utilize the incredible amount of free time to practice the piano.

 

I moved to the Netherlands at 44 and still continue to play now and then. Since I collect a modest pension and still have those investments, I am actually permanently semi-retired.

[ksoper]

100% of my income comes from playing music. While it's mostly touring, I get a little bit here and there from sessions.

 

I feel a long post coming on...

 

My success can be attributed almost entirely to the love and patience of my wife, who knows she married a musician and likes me more when I'm playing than when I'm not. She's the one with the good, stable job.

 

On my part, I took organ lessons from age seven and consumed music of every genre. I was equally happy listening to Bach as to Motown. By the time I began making music professionally I was able to play any style, or at least a fair representation of it. To me, that's a huge part of success in the music business. Ears, ears, ears. Technique, technique, technique.

 

Tenacity is the other factor. I simply refuse to give up. Luckily I'm not faced with a financial or emotional ultimatum, but even during the lean times, I've pretty much stuck with it. This isn't to say I didn't or wouldn't take a regular job when I had to. I've laid carpet, worked in a deli, driven limousine (in Manhattan!), given tours of Nashville, sold keyboards, sold software. I was miserable and sought out music work quickly. And because I'm a keyboard player in a town full of guitar players, it wasn't hard to get hired.

 

So, practice your ass off, train your ears, and don't ever, EVER quit. Oh, and move to a city where making music for a living is considered normal. And even then you may never get chances I've gotten. And there are many chances I'll never get. I can live with that.

 

k.

 

Oh, and one more thing...go into debt, whatever you gotta do, but show up to the gig with GOOD GEAR. Pro players will seriously break your balls if you don't.

[DJDM]

Despite playing in bands most of my life and having some successes as a composer between approximately 1986 and 2000 I got my first substantial and later sustained music work in 2001. It's been a slow build from there. At the time I left a pretty good job as the studio manager/coordinator/liaison between radio giant Jones Radio Inc and Sirius Satellite to stay home and compose full time. I had big desk, a blessed sky light and my manager and indeed most of the rest of the staff worked in another building. Did I mention I had an assistant? That was a hard job to walk away from but I prefer creative pursuits to managing stuff. Although the management skills have come in handy.

It's not been easy and I have almost had to take odd jobs to keep it afloat from time to time but like a house of cards it seems to be holding it self up right now as work keeps coming in every month.

Most of my work is for DVDs, TV and Corporate Events with a few Indie Films thrown in for good measure. I get some of it directly by clients finding me. Some of it comes in through a composers collective I'm part of.

Right now I am working on getting into music for video games. In fact the only reason I didn't make it to NAMM this year is because I am headed off to the Game Developers Conference instead.

[MikeT156]

The original question sounded like it was posed in the present tense. However, most of the replies were from a past tense perspective. Same with me, I did play professionally and semi professionally for a large part of my life. I started playing in bands in high school and played in weekend bands during college, playing fraternity gigs, and clubs. Later did a duo and played the Pocono Mountain resort gigs for 3 ski seasons, the duo was together almost 4 years. I got tired of my guitar player partner's laziness and booted him. Shortly thereafter I decided to go solo on a part time basis. I played weekends during ski season in the Poconos, while I worked a day job during the week. That was the most financially rewarding situation, but the most demanding. When I was unemployed for a period of time, I signed up with a booking agent and went on the road as a solo KB/singer doing the hotel circuit for over 3 years. I enjoyed it, got to practice during the day for "hours", and played happies and few hours in the lounge at night. The one thing I enjoyed about the hotel circuit was that during the week when business was "slow" I got to play most anything I wanted. That gave me a chance to try new tunes, originals, or things that "weren't ready for prime time" yet. Musically it was rewarding, financially, it paid the bills, barely. I decided to go "home" and get a day job, and play weekends again.

 

There was another period, about two years, when I played full time music, but again its difficult to make enough money doing that where I live. Most people just go out on weekends and there's not a lot of gigs during the week.

 

I had one "shot" a recording original music for Arista Records. I did 4 originals in a great studio and they listened to the demos. About the same time, Arista was bought out and nothing ever came of it. But it was a great experience. I had my songs mixed at Master Disk in NYC, and just a visit to that place was enlightening. Pictures of stars all over their walls, and professionals there that know their stuff.

 

Music is a hobby for me now at age 57. It's more enjoyable that way. No regrets.

 

Mike T.

[JeffLearman]

Well, I'm still alive at age 47. I would have starved or gone mad long ago as a pro musician. As a musician, sure, I have my strengths and individuality and such, but at the VERY best I would be an average pro musician. (That's with a lot more practice and experience than I got; as it is I count myself lucky to be at best an average level "pro-am".)

 

You can live a lot better on the income of an average software engineer than an average musician! And I do mean "live a lot better", not just make more money. I get to play the music I want rather than what I can sell. I get to party when everyone else is partying. And best of all, I don't have to work until 3AM most weekend evenings.

 

I once shared a house with serious jazz/blues musicians who'd practice their asses off, constantly adding new material (stuff they loved). They hauled a Yamaha studio grand (upright) to gigs. They'd work all weekend, all 7 of them, and get home at 3 or 4AM Sunday morning, turn on the TV, open a few GIQs, divide up their $500 for both nights, and say "Gee, sure beats WORKING for a living!"

 

My hat's off to those of you who CAN stand the lifestyle and who do stick with it, because I'd be far less of a musician without others to learn from! So, I do my part by catching local shows, etc.

 

SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL MUSICIANS!

[Joe P]

I played with a band in the late '80's, we did a lot of gigs and got paid but we all had day jobs. Me mechanical engineer, bassist insurance, guitar player construction, drummer bakery worker. The bassist and I were hobbyists, the guitarist and drummer were professionals. It was a good time, late nights though. Now I play with those guys again except just for fun. We have a different drummer, bachelors in percussion, runs a landscape company. Bassist still in insurace, I'm still an engineer. We play parties for our friends for free, open mics, stuff like that. Our guitar player ekes a living out of music, playing in a jazz band, a blues band, giving lessons, contracting for wedding gigs. He played my wedding and they were awesome. I got to jam with them, it was the greatest! His wife makes the real dough to support the 2 kids. I was talking to a jazz bass player (day job computers), he played a gig that from door to door took about 9 hours. Made 25 bucks. I think the club owners take advantage of the musicians who above all want to play. Here in NJ there are a lot of bands. Currently me and my mates are practicing for a giant Woodstock-like party I throw each year with a couple hundred people. It's something to shoot for, you got to have a goal. When I was playing back in the '80's there is NO question I would have quit my day job in a second to play for a living. There is nothing better than playing in a band, but you have to make sacrifices. It's the ultimate and if you're willing to take the risks that I wasn't willing to take, the potential payoff can be wonderful. I'll never stop playing in a band because I love it so much, pay or no pay.

Good Luck & Regards,

Joe P

[resigned]

I'm 48 and a full-time performing musician. I've settled into a coastal resort area that is a good market for my instrumental contemporary jazz covers of pop and standards. This is also my 35th year as a pro muso, although I've done other jobs on the side the last being as a computer network specialist. My youth was like David Horne's very much, except that I went into the USAF and became an audio-visual engineer. I played in bands most of my life as well as many duos and trios. Played many Holiday Inns. Had some lucky breaks, won some big competitions, have 18 awards for my jingles, recorded and played with some well known people, all good. My alternate careers have been interesting too, including working in oceanographic research and video production for a while.

 

I'm still young enough to juggle two careers but I have friends who have passed away too young and I've decided that I could do well enough just playing music for a living. It helps that I used the dual-career years get myself into a manageable financial position. If you really want to play for a living, you have to establish a steady market for your services and build your life around it.

[DafDuc]

I guess I'm a once and future full-timer, LOL.

 

Did the full time bar band thing in the 70's for about 3 years or so, then quit to start a family. Kept it as a sideline.

 

I got into church playing about 12-13 years ago, and have been taking on more and more work: I now have a half-time job that pays as well (ok, poorly) as many of the full time church jobs out there. It's not enough for my family, though, so unless Kim's day care center becomes a reality (hard to imagine with her current set of medical challenges), I'll keep juggling the two careers.

 

But I LOVE the church work, and will slide into it full time as soon as the finances allow.

 

Daf

[coyote]

It stopped due to a newly acquired "controlling interest" (wife)

Originally posted by shniggens:

Why did it stop?

Seriously, I found it was becoming a drag. Not the playing part - I worked for a couple of clubdate orchestras and I got to play with some wonderfully talented folks along the way. All the rest of the business got tiresome, and after awhile it wasn't worth it to go out & play "I've Had the Time Of My Life" again. Something I loved, music, was becoming a grind. So it had to stop.

 

Now with my current band it's fun again. We gig very infrequently, and rehearsal is loose and fun even as we nail complex material and I learn to play my 'new' instrument (keyboards).

[robmix]

Originally posted by learjeff:

You can live a lot better on the income of an average software engineer than an average musician! And I do mean "live a lot better", not just make more money. I get to play the music I want rather than what I can sell. I get to party when everyone else is partying. And best of all, I don't have to work until 3AM most weekend evenings.

SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL MUSICIANS!

Well that's for sure. My wife and I usually work 7 days a week, usually from 12pm - 12am. If the crunch is on it's not uncommon to work from 12pm - 6 or 7am the next morning. I've definitely had my share of sleepless nights. Once had to stay from Friday night until Monday morning with an artist trying to finish his project. Lately we've been trying to take off Sundays.

 

While the thought of constant paycheck is nice nothing beats a big 'ole royalty check I can't really imagine having a regular job.

[BP3]

While I'm not a producer (much), I do make my living in music. Lately I record and mix concert DVDs for about 75% of my income. The other 25% comes from playing keys, doing live sound, consulting on studio design, and so on. Before this work, I did much of the mixing duties for BET Jazz as well as BET. That was a great gig for the 5+ years that I was there. The Viacom buyout changed things much at the DC campus so I moved on.

[GTRBass]

This is a subject that pains me when I think about it. "Making it" is tougher than ever.

 

I have worked as a studio bassist, as a live performer, and as an engineer in music as well as Film/TV. I used to qualify a Pro player vs. amateur as one who made the bulk of their living from their musical pursuits. I no longer do.

 

The economic realities of being a musician are so harsh now that many very talented people have had to pursue a living outside the music industry in order to maintain a decent lifestyle.

 

Guitarist Steve Morse for example has at times been employed as an airline pilot for commuter airlines to pay the bills. Former Dixie Dregs bassist Andy West is also a programmer for IBM. I cite the two as examples of World class players who have had to seek employment elsewhere to feed their families. I too am a database administrator, although I am still working professionally in music. Many others follow suit, but don't discuss it because of their uneasiness about the subject.

 

It is a sad state of affairs. I think a big reason is that the public doesn't value musicians as they once did. Everybody wants music, but they don't seem to want to pay for it. Don't blame Napster, it has been moving in this direction for a long time. People will piss an moan about paying a $5.00 cover, but they'll gladly pay nearly $100 a seat at a major league sporting event, sucking down $8.00 beers.

 

The mark of a pro is the skill set they possess. I came to the realization in 1991 that I might want to support myself in other ways. It wasn;t that I was a failure. I had to recognize that I was working uprwards of 70 hours a week,between club gigs in Hollywood and studio engineering work. The pay scale wasn't worth it. I worked (non-union) in TV post where it wasn't unusual to pull a fourteen hr session and the jerks we worked for grumbled about paying OT. (Ohh and FU Alan Ett) I went back to school (after I already had a degree in music) with he intention that I would chuck it all to go back out on the road with a good band.

 

I have heard many times from players that they would accept less (you plug in the $$$ number) per year as long as they were doing nothing but making music. That statement is what kills us right there. Everyone else (with maybe the exception of actors) won't do that. Money comes first. Who ever heard of somebody saying OK I'll work here in this office for free until I prove my worth to you. And when was the last time you went to work, and had to bring your own PC, desk and chair? Even if you're an independent contractor, you'll receive far better treatment in the business world than you will as a musician.

 

The music industry (labels, clubowners, etc.) is able to exploit us based on our willingness to be exploited. If we say no, someone else will say yes. There are the very select few who can dictate their own terms but the majority suffer from being grossly underpaid.

 

With all that said, I do make a decent amount of money between my day gig and my other gigs as a player and engineer. I don't have to take on projects I don't like or don't have a knack for because of my day gig. I don't take many vacations because I use up most of my vacation time on touring or doing sessions. I work many long hours between the two but it's worth it. I have retirement, I have a very nice home, and I have a nice new corvette too.

 

I would suggest to many players that its time to re-define "making it". Today maybe making is being a top notch player who can have the financial freedom to make great music without being dictated to. Maybe you know you've made it when you have the security to say NO to a bad deal. I have that, and the price is a very technical and unglamourous day gig.

 

I'm hardly unique. I know at least half a dozen world class players who've had tremendous successes that post here who are in the exact same boat I am.

[shniggens]

Originally posted by GTRBass:

Former Dixie Dregs bassist Andy West is also a programmer for IBM.

Hmmmmmm . . . I think this may be false. I did a search on our employee listing and I can't find him. And trust me, EVERY employee of IBM HAS to be on the list. Maybe he goes by a different name?

[BP3]

Originally posted by GTRBass:

The mark of a pro is the skill set they possess.

In the market these days, you have to be both diverse and agile in your skills.

 

When I started playing I noticed that my engineer was working when I wasn't. That got me thinking about learning more about engineering. I got a house gig at The Bayou in Georgetown DC. It was a great learning experience. Whenever you can work and learn at the same time, DO IT! House gigs for clubs that have diverse music styles are to be treasured when you are young.

 

After the club days, I toured for years. Once again, there was much to be learned. And I did my best to soak it all in.

 

Then I wanted a family. Time to get off the road. I had some studio experience by then, but not as much as I'd like. I split my time in the studio and doing keys for jingles and industrial films. More and more I crossed paths into broadcast mixing. Did that for over 5 years then started working in surround mixing for DVDs. Still do that now.

 

28 years down the road doing this and it's been mostly good, some of it wonderful and some of it made me wonder what I got myself into. It's certainly been more fun than I could have imagined for a job. I consider myself very fortuante to do what I do for a living.

[GTRBass]

I know this to be absolutely true, and not a tall tale. It may be possible that Andy has moved onfrom IBM, but he started with the company in 1985. He worked in the OS development area, doing firmware microcode for AIX. He still lives in the Phoenix area AFAIK.

[shniggens]

How does one get into the jingle biz?

[marino]

Fulltime musician, always been for the last 25 years (I'm 45 now). Started working with music at 18, earning a living at 22.

 

I'm in a real hurry, but I'd like at least to say that my key to survive in this most insecure profession has been versatility. I've covered literally dozens of different musical roles: Jazz pianist, classical pianist (both solo and chamber), lounge/cocktail pianist, musical director, arranger, composer (for TV, theatre, dance, games, CD-ROMs...), rock keyboardist, synth programmer, sound designer, music consultant, teacher (of jazz and classical piano, improvisation, sound design, harmony...), assistant composer, music school coordinator, even stage director (just once ).

 

I have to go now, sorry.

See you here!

[linwood]

How does one get into the jingle biz?

I can tell you about this, but it'd be easier to talk about it on the phone. Call me next week if you want. I'm swamped this week and I've got company from out of town staying at my house til Sunday. It's nuts trying to get anything done. Or you can e me.

 

Linwood- 702-435-9008

linwood@bellmusicproductions.com