Michelle ggurl Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Well, I can't sure as to motivation as to why JZ says what he says, but I would hope it's not because he feels underappreciated. He's widely recognized for his talents, it seems to me. I don't think there's anyone here who underestimates his contributions, and yes, even if one knows only a fraction of what those contributions are, one would be impressed! But it's completely fair, and no less reverent a stance to take, to entertain the premise that something evolved on the artistic timeline Before Joe. I think this discussion is really forumites doing just that. Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Originally posted by Floyd Tatum: Originally posted by greenboy: I see for most posters here the ears have not yet been used ; }Uh, what do you mean?I wouldn't worry too much about Greenboys comments... hes not added anything to the thread except condescension... interestingly enough the only people I've heard this kind of stuff from has been DJ types, y'know the type who think that they know everything because they have a massive collection of records, but really they only know about funk and even then in a "must have a big beat" kinda way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Originally posted by Jazz+: Zawinal's '125th Street Congress'(1973) predates Shorter's 'Mysterious Traveler' (1974). Nobody here has named a track with a hip hop beat before 125th Street Congress' [from Weather Report's 1973 album Sweetnighter]Skull Snaps from 1973 is closer to the hip hop sound, and has been sampled more too http://www.phatdrumloops.com/old_site/acm/its_a_new_day.wav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 orangefunk, you shiteating pile of crap I'm a player. And a listener. Not a fuckin debate team second-stringer who worries about who has the right pocket protector. it was apparent some people hadn't even heard the example by the comparisons they were making. Why waste too much breath on people who don't listen first? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Originally posted by greenboy: orangefunk, you shiteating pile of crap I'm a player. And a listener. Not a fuckin debate team second-stringer who worries about who has the right pocket protector. it was apparent some people hadn't even heard the example by the comparisons they were making. Why waste too much breath on people who don't listen first?hehe.. thanks for that.. you just revealed your character... I don't even know why you visit this forum, we're so obviously all beneath you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Not all people here are like you. A few I think quite highly of, in fact. Perhaps it's because they don't lead with their chin and follow with their ass. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Originally posted by greenboy: Not all people here are like you. A few I think quite highly of, in fact. Perhaps it's because they don't lead with their chin and follow with their ass.Please tell me the secret confucious... perhaps I can learn something... like humbleness perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 On the Joe Z theme I just watched WR in 1975 on the DOwnbeat awards show and also the Live in Tokyo 1972 gig... here are some pics... Joe looks so damn cool.... http://www.geocities.com/orangefunk_2000/0002.JPG http://www.geocities.com/orangefunk_2000/0003.JPG http://www.geocities.com/orangefunk_2000/0005.JPG http://www.geocities.com/orangefunk_2000/0006.JPG http://www.geocities.com/orangefunk_2000/0007.JPG http://www.geocities.com/orangefunk_2000/0008.JPG http://www.geocities.com/orangefunk_2000/0009.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 Great pictures, Orange! Nice looking keyboard, that Rhodes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 orangefunk, you shiteating pile of crap LOL! nice!! , and thats probably when hes in a good mood... Methinks he watch too much Tony Soprano... oh well... hope he doesn't cut me up into tiny pieces and put me in a bin bag Btw the concerts are really cool, but I know you've probably seen those before. I'm really interested in the Downbeat 1975 one though... Alphonso and Chester with Alex Acuna on perc... wow! Though in honesty nothing beats the 1976 concert... The 72 Tokyo one is very avant garde just like the first WR LP... I just played it to my Indian friend (who will be playing tabla with me on some future concerts) and he was highly bemused! I'm really interested in Joes use of Oberheim ring mod and the kalimba too... I must try and get one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 Thanks for the pics. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffk Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 In the book 5 Points they talk about a black guy inventing tap dancing to Irish jig music --- this 'fusion' is also alluded to in the Gangs of NY movie. I think this is as good a starting point for "the" hip-hop beat as any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Originally posted by geoffk: this 'fusion' is also alluded to in the Gangs of NY movie. I saw this movie yesterday, that particular episode was a standout! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyJimJim Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Hah, this thread reminds me of this weird jazz-related movie 'The Legend of 1900' where jelly roll morton claims he invented jazz but this other dude kicks his ass in a cutting contest... anyone seen it? Was a bit slow for my tastes but kinda interesting story (apparently based on a true story). Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
declau Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 At the risk of sounding sarcastic and arrogant: there's no such thing as "the hip hop beat" Jazz+ .I think we've come long ways to know that it's not a beat but a convergence of many other influences.This "hip hop beat" say reminds of lazy post-producers that slap the same old "killer tracks" 30 sec skit on every project they work on to give it a hip hop feel and think they're so cool or something. Check out some old Lou Ronaldson recordings you'll be amazed how much hip hop there is in that especially if you know who Pete Rock or Marley Marl is.BTW, Teddy Riley "invented" the New Jack Swing and all it is it's Funk, Rap and R'n'B put together with signature snares and bassdrum sounds. So not really an invention but more like an evolution.Also, have you heard any west african polyrythmic drums sessions from way back when even a pen an a piece of papirus would have been way too avant-gardist to notate it. I think they swing pretty good. They inventend drums , whatdyasay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Analogaddict Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 Welcome to the forum! Originally posted by declau: At the risk of sounding sarcastic and arrogant: there's no such thing as "the hip hop beat" Jazz+ . I think we've come long ways to know that it's not a beat but a convergence of many other influences. I agree completely. Of course there is "a" hip hop beat, and you can say that Zawinul (and others) played hip hop beats before the arrival of hip hop as we know it today. Early hip hop evolved by using older drum beats established by artists like James Brown or Parliament/Funkadelic. It´s all about evolution. Originally posted by declau: Check out some old Lou Ronaldson recordings you'll be amazed how much hip hop there is in that especially if you know who Pete Rock or Marley Marl is. Pete Rock really defies categorization; he´s a rapper, producer and into spoken word stuff, and all of it is brilliant! "Soul Survivor II" has some great synth stuff too! Originally posted by declau: BTW, Teddy Riley "invented" the New Jack Swing and all it is it's Funk, Rap and R'n'B put together with signature snares and bassdrum sounds. So not really an invention but more like an evolution. A-men! Originally posted by declau: Also, have you heard any west african polyrythmic drums sessions from way back when even a pen an a piece of papirus would have been way too avant-gardist to notate it. I think they swing pretty good. They inventend drums , whatdyasay?Yeah, there´s nothing new under the sun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I would like everyone to know that I personally invented jazz-rock fusion way before anyone else did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 Hmm, still no particular track cited that pre-dates the Zawinul track that has that exact type of beat on it.Zawinul didn't say: "I invented the Hip Hop beat...". He meant he was the first to record that exact particular beat that later became used in Hip Hop and that he had played it for some time before recording it. Perhaps he should have chosen different words to explain what he meant. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
declau Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 He meant he was the first to record that exact particular beat that later became used in Hip Hop Ok I totally agree with that instead. It's more reasonable. There's a lot of tracks in Hiphop that have "a" particular beat coming from one particular artist. For example "more bounce to the ounce" by Zapp and Roger with the big ol clap and the 16th bassdrum. Which by the way is what Teddy Riley oversampled and over-extrapolated to created New Jack Swing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarkus Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Sorry for reviving the thread: I've been thinking: Scat doesn't fit the definition, the Big Bopper was maybe closer to the concept, and Zaiwanul/WR was sampled. Mingus? Recently I've been helping a studio buddy of mine with some acts. I've had Hip-hop experience in the past. last weekend I get the call: "We've got a Hip-hop act (local guys) with a bit of exposure and they want to do a re-make, not neccessarily a rap or hip-hop, but maybe soul or even rock. C'mon over and bring some sounds, discs, and Ideas." I immediately grab Jimi Hendrix Experience : "Are You Experienced, Axis, and Electric Ladyland". Chuck (studio guy) looks at my collection, with the Hendrix, and focuses on Electric Ladyland. The three performers and their 'producer' sift through my other collection. We ask if they've listened to Hendrix. The performers say they've 'heard of him' (these guys are about 18-24 in age). The producer says: "Hendrix?!?, that stuff is way-out it'll never go hip-hop! (words to that effect)" I suggest "Crosstown Traffic" at first but I say: "you guys want to hear this?" "House Burnin' Down" After 3 listenings and several interruptions and play-backs: "How'd he do that? How old is this? When was this recorded?" (About 22 years before Sugar Hill) "That's gotta be the oldest hip-hop I've ever heard!" So they're gonna do a remake of "House Burnin Down" and maybe "Crosstown". (They kinda sound like JayZ, or so I'm told). This listening session went on for hours - these guys never "heard" Hendrix fully and now they were givin him 'props' as the 'first to break it out'. I have to agree - Jimi did it all and did it with authority. Just think - Jimi was criticized by the Soul and R&B community for being 'out of touch' and not being able to 'sing' melodically, and as the Panthers put it "too white". The Producer guy is busy trying to get the ok from the Hendrix people. It's good to know I can still leave an impact on the budding talent with a suggested listening. I wonder if I can get them to listen to King Crimson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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