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OT: Joe Zawinul invented the Hip - Hop beat


moj

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This is the first I ever heard of this. A white European jazz legend claiming to have started the World Beat groove and inventing THE hip-hop beat. He is one of my favorite keyboardist and jazz musician and is one of the pioneers of the world beat/fusion genre, yet I think he may be taking more credit than he deserves. Hmm...what do you think?

 

sound on sound - Zawinul

 

"He also has a penchant for self-promotion sometimes bordering on the grandiose he has, for instance, professed to have begun the entire world music movement.

 

In addition, during our transatlantic phone conversation Zawinul took credit for inventing the hip-hop beat. "Oh, yeah," Zawinul asserted, "if you listen to the drum beat on '125th Street Congress' [from Weather Report's 1973 album Sweetnighter], that beat is the original hip-hop beat. I played that years before it was recorded. That particular beat has since been used by at least 55 or 60 rap groups, even until now. I did get credit and paid for that, which is a good thing. That was the first time the hip-hop beat was recorded, but I didn't call it that. Peter Erskine [one of Weather Report's drummers] used to call it the Zawa beat."

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i'm just a 50 year old white guy, but i was under the impression that a lot of modern electronic and rap music was more influenced by the tools used to make it than anything... i thought that whole "sixteenth-note-triplet swing feel" evolved out of drum machine programming, although plenty of drummers can now play that feel live...
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If you think he is wrong then why don't you name a song that used that hip hop beat earlier? I'll agree with him until somebody proves him wrong.

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.

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I love Josef. He's arguably the best Jazz multi-keyboardist ever. And he did a lot to make world music and fusion take shape.

 

But he is missing the point. The hip hop beat is not a question of invention but acceptance. He didn't make the hip-hop beat accepted. There's really very little absolutely new in music, one is always standing on somebody else's shoulders.

 

In the same vein don't forget that Peter Gabriel invented rap. :eek:

 

Yeah really.... ;)

 

When the sun beats down and I lie on the Bench

I can always here them talk.

Me, I'm a lawnmover

You can tell me by the way I walk.

 

Jerry

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Well, I think theres a little bit of truth in what Joe says but its like about 0.001% or something. Even Bob James has contributed to hip hop sound with the Nautilus and Mardis Gras breaks from his early CTI LPs.. along with a whole slew of people... even Hancock, John Klemmer, Eumir Deodato, James Brown etc etc... in other words just so many people to be able to say that theres one defining source...

 

joe Zawinul once stated that he hasn't heard a new record since 1970 so I'd be surprised if he knew what hip hop was :D

 

The thing about WR breaking world music again has some truth, although there were a load of bands in Europe doing the same thing in the early 70s... anyone ever heard Embryo? Joe did some great stuff though, I think theres some wonderful stuff on the 1976 live concert that must have been groundbreaking at the time in fusion, Joe playing a kalimba while playing rhodes thru plaser and playing background tapes of speeded up singing/chants (I think the track is Badia or Gibraltar?). I have to confess when I heard that live I thought it was extraordinarily brave for 1976, now everybody seems to do the same stuff live with Apple Macs and samplers (Bugge Wesseltoft, Red Snapper et al) and we take it all for granted.

 

The strange thing I find is that the most hip hop sounding track on a WR LP was the title trackon Mysterious Traveller... and that was composed by Wayne Shorter... that staccato piano line (also played by Wayne) is just pure hip hop... what a great feel.

 

Just my 2c

 

Orange

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Zawinal's '125th Street Congress'(1973) predates Shorter's 'Mysterious Traveler' (1974).

 

Nobody here has named a track with a hip hop beat before 125th Street Congress' [from Weather Report's 1973 album Sweetnighter]

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.

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Originally posted by Jazz+:

Nobody here has named a track with a hip hop beat before 125th Street Congress' [from Weather Report's 1973 album Sweetnighter]

...then what exactly is a Hip Hop beat? James Brown´s (well, Clyde Stubblefield´s :D )"Funky Drummer"-beat predates all of this stuff anyway, as does all the Motown and Stax stuff from the '60:s. Like stated above, Hip Hop is not a specific beat, it´s a lot about message and rhythmic delivery. The Last Poets and Gil Scott-Heron did spoken word in the late '60:s and early '70:s that reminds me a lot of rap.

 

:cool:

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Art is not invented! Is like sayin' Egyptians or Greeks invented architecture - sure, they gave alot, but art is a contunuity not something with a staritng point. Zawinul is a great musician -he did remarkable job long before others-, but not anything he claims is worth quoting. Plus, if someone has the "right" to say that he invented hip-hop, i thing that's Drummer Clyde

Regards

Yannis

Be grateful for what you've got - a Nord, a laptop and two hands
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The "Funky Drummer" used a totally different beat.

Did you even listen to the beat on Zawinal's "125th Street Congress" 1973 track?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0 00002AEL/qid=1100540079/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-8573419-4639239?v=glance&s=music

If you did then you would hear the "hip hop beat" we are actualy talking about. That "Zawa Beat" was later on called "New Jack Swing". It is a funk beat with swinging sixteenths accentuated by the hi hat at a tempo somewhere between 80 and 110 bpm with a strong backbeat. "125th Street Congress " is at 96 bpm. It's not a Motown, Stax or James Brown beat, LOL.

 

I challenge anybody to name a track that uses that same type of feel, with those accented swinging sixteenths, in the same style of beat that Zawinal had on that 1973 track. I doubt anyone here will be to answer and until somebody can then Joe Zawinal should be credited for being the first to record the New Jack Swing hip hop beat.

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.

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Originally posted by Jazz+:

You all are skirting the issue. The "Funky Drummer" used a totally different beat.

Did you even listen to the beat on Zawinal's "125th Street Congress" 1973 track? If you did then you would hear the "hip hop beat" we are actualy talking about. That "Zawa Beat" was later on called "New Jack Swing". It is a funk beat with swinging sixteenths accented by the the hi hat at a tempo somewhere between 80 and 110 bpm with a strong backbeat. "125th Street Congress " is at 96 bpm. It's not a Motown, Stax or James Brown beat, LOL.

 

I challenge anybody to name a track that uses that same type of feel, with those accented swinging sixteenths, in the same style of beat that Zawinal had on that 1973 track. I doubt anyone here will be to answer and until somebody can then Joe Zawinal should be credited for being the firt to record the "hip hop" beat.

Ok, I'll play.

 

Listen to "Oh! Oh! Here He Comes", from Herbie Hancock's "Fat Albert Rotunda", 1969.

 

Swingin' 16ths, about the same tempo, bass line is even in the same ballpark.

 

So it looks like Herbie Hancock invented Hip Hop!

 

Ha, ha. Not really. These are all variations on the Boogaloo rhythm, which was popular in the 60's. That's the way it seems to these ears.

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That's what I was going to hypothesize, without having any specific reference off the top of my head -- boogaloo. Do you have some specific examples, Tatum Tot? :D

 

And that would be just for starters of the evolution, of course. I think it's preposterous for anyone to claim to have invented a beat, especially one that is more of a MODERN genre with variations. Things like that evolve. Some riff, some fill an earlier artist does in passing somewhere is something another artist down the road decides to obsess over. Then it morphs yet again. "Invent," sheesh, gimme a break. :rolleyes:

 

No one is doubting Mr. Z's contributions to music, but no one is doubting the generous proportions of his ego, either.

Original Latin Jazz

CD Baby

 

"I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith

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Originally posted by geekgurl:

That's what I was going to hypothesize, without having any specific reference off the top of my head -- boogaloo. Do you have some specific examples, Tatum Tot? :D

Not really. But, I think Fat Albert was, at the time, considered jazz-boogaloo fusion. Perhaps only by me, however...

 

No one is doubting Mr. Z's contributions to music, but no one is doubting the generous proportions of his ego, either.
I think these outrageous self-aggrandizements are part of Joe's style, somehow I think it's probably a kind of joke or prank. Deliberately over-the-top self-promotion. Maybe he takes it all seriously - I would think he's gotta be too smart for that, but, ya never know.
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"Oh! Oh! Here He Comes" is almost it, but the hi hat pattern is still not quite there, it's not articulating all the sixteenth notes in a swing, like on the Zawinal track.

 

You can listen here:

http://www.towerrecords.com/product.aspx?pfid=1005027

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.

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Where is an earlier boogaloo beat recording where they articulate all the sixteenth notes in a swing on the hi hat like they did on Zawinal track?

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.

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Originally posted by Jazz+:

The "Funky Drummer" used a totally different beat.

Did you even listen to the beat on Zawinal's "125th Street Congress" 1973 track?

Yes, otherwise I would not claim to have heard it... I wouldn´t agree on totally different, you have the same kinds of subdivisions and syncopations all over the track.

 

and it´s Zawin U l! :P

 

Originally posted by Jazz+:

If you did then you would hear the "hip hop beat" we are actualy talking about. That "Zawa Beat" was later on called "New Jack Swing". It is a funk beat with swinging sixteenths accentuated by the hi hat at a tempo somewhere between 80 and 110 bpm with a strong backbeat.

There you go; "it´s a funk beat", you just answered your own question. Unless Zawinul invented funk as well, which would mean that he also invented blues, gospel and jazz. I know he´s been around, but I didn´t know THAT! ;)

 

Originally posted by Jazz+:

"125th Street Congress " is at 96 bpm. It's not a Motown, Stax or James Brown beat, LOL.

Since you are so literate on hip-hop, you are probably aware of that many artists and groups would slow down beats or speed them up to fit the rhymes.

 

Originally posted by Jazz+:

I challenge anybody to name a track that uses that same type of feel, with those accented swinging sixteenths, in the same style of beat that Zawinal had on that 1973 track. I doubt anyone here will be to answer and until somebody can then Joe Zawinal should be credited for being the firt to record the "hip hop" beat.

Again, is there really a "Hip Hop beat"? Then there´s a jazz beat, too I presume, and a rock beat... what if a hip hop beat doesn´t sound like 125th street congress, is it still hip hop then, or something completely different? :cool:
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We are talking specificly about the "New Jack Swing" style of of Hip Hop beat and yes, it can trace it's roots to a genre of funk. It has a certain feel, accent, and way of swinging on the hi hat.

 

'Funky Drummer' has a different swing feel:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009EJC5/qid=1100548862/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-8573419-4639239?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

Harry Likas was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Harry spends his time teaching jazz piano online and playing solo piano gigs.

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Skipping, temporarily, over responces, I'm going with the ideas that:

-There is no "hip-hop beat", except for those really boring producer/"musicians" who use the same beat for everything...in which case I'd be hesitant to want to take credit for it.

-Early rappers sampled overwhelmingly from 2 sources most frequently: James Brown's "Funky Drummer" & Led Zepellin tracks like "When The Levee Breaks". Maybe they should get credit... (I forget which drummer was on JB's track...Jabo Starks?

[Of course back-reading reveals it was Clyde Stubblefield...I'm b-slapping myself for forgetting that.]

Back later after I catch up on back-reading...

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Originally posted by Analogaddict:

Well, who else would dare make such a bold claim?! He also claims to have invented world music as a genre, and if you twist the perspectives a bit, it can look like he did all of this. :D Also, Zawinul is probably one of the blackest white musicians ever..!

Or maybe Diz did when he brought that Latin thang into his jazz...or maybe Lord JellyRoll Morton did when he introduced what he called "the Latin tinge"...

Still Zawinul does wear that little N. African skullcap---that makes him pretty "black", right?

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Originally posted by Michael Jackson's real nose:

Originally posted by Analogaddict:

[qb]Well, who else would dare make such a bold claim?! He also claims to have invented world music as a genre, and if you twist the perspectives a bit, it can look like he did all of this. :D Also, Zawinul is probably one of the blackest white musicians ever..!

Or maybe Diz did when he brought that Latin thang into his jazz...or maybe Lord JellyRoll Morton did when he introduced what he called "the Latin tinge"...QB]
Or maybe the Africans enslaved in America did, when they sang their folk songs in the cotton fields to be heard by westerners with western instruments.

 

I've got a recording of Kenyan/Tanzanian witchcraft/ritual music supposed to be of the ancient ways, and some of it sure does sound like blues. World music, indeed.

Original Latin Jazz

CD Baby

 

"I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith

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In speaking of commercial music Joe Zawinul has broken a ton of new ground really merging jazz/world and funk to what we were starting to call Fusion..using the Rhodes on such influential recordings the most famous being Mercy Mercy and really breaking new ground in synth sounds in my humble opinion re writing the whole way we use keyboards from the oberheim to korg rip offs of those to solo sounds to the Pat Metheny vibe of orchestral and melodic writing to yes world music and to top it all off ALL improvised..I say Joe deserves credit as being one of the most if not the most influential electric players/arrangers of our time..not to mention having practiced this craft and re invention of sounds and rhythm fusions for close to 50 years!..Josef can say and claim all he wants to..he may be a little wacky but he has said so much in his lifetime that I feel he might be very mis-understood with some of his statements if you never heard his music!

Long live Zawinul!

I have heard him play with Weather Report and various great young talent with the Zawinul Syndicate..have hung out with him at times and have always found him to be so deep that he really does exhist in another world that only he fully understands..basically might be simply looking for a few props that he feels he might have never caught as 30,40 50 years have gone by..now that's deep!

regards

vibes

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