Smoking ban in clubs ! ! !

[Dave Horne]

Does it bother you if I eat while you smoke?

[RABid]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Does it bother you if I eat while you smoke?

Just chew with your mouth closed.

 

Robert

[doug osborne]

besides, have you ever cleaned that crap out of a B3 or a Rhodes?

 

Yuck.

[Rick K.]

I'm soooo looking forward to smoking bans! In the Phoenix metro areas, we have a couple of cities, like Tempe and Mesa where smoking is banned. I LOVED playing in them!! It was really nice to be able to breath. It's amazing how my voice is totally different and my endurance greatly improved. I don't go out myself (unless I'm gigging) because of the smoke. It's horrible.

 

I have talked to those bar owners who argue that it's not fair for neighboring cities to have different laws on the smoking issue. It would impact them to a lesser degree if the entire state would adopt the law. I tend to agree.

 

Rick

[Prague]

The bans aren't needed. Everyone has a free choice to enter or not. Bands have a choice to play there or not. Besides, if EVERY place allows smoking, what does that tell you about the demand for non-smoking clubs? When government has to force something, it is against the people's will. If EVERYONE wants non-smoking clubs, why the need for a government edict?

 

Anyway, there is a way around these bans. It will allow anyone to enter the place if they want to, or not. It will allow bands to play there, or not. Just as it should be.

[RABid]

Originally posted by paostby:

... When government has to force something, it is against the people's will. If EVERYONE wants non-smoking clubs, why the need for a government edict?.....

Your logic has a major flaw. Not everyone thinks the same. Not EVERYONE wants laws against murder. If you don't have laws, people who do not hesitate to kill will not just kill each other. Not everyone wants smoke free clubs. But if a non-smoker enters a smoking club it is still full of smoke. If a smoker enters a non-smoking club, because he chooses to, it becomes a smoking club. Some choices are individual, some choices effect everyone around. A division of smoking and non-smoking clubs might be an alternative, but even that will require laws.

 

Robert

[Synthbro]

Here I go with my .02

 

I don't like the idea of government control on our actions and daily lives when it gets to be for the sake of control and has no basis on the public good (which is possible). However, if we have no laws, it's going to be a free for all and anarchy. Hopefully, we can agree that this is just as harmful to the public good.

 

So where do we make the judgement calls?

 

I've never even tried a cigarette. As a non-smoker who was lucky enough to escape from teenage peer pressure, I can't deny that I see the addictive nature of cigarettes. It makes me angry when I saw Tobacco Company Execs get up before Congress and just lie and lie. I couldn't see the deceit in their faces.

 

When I talk to smokers about smoking, I usually get two different types of responses.

 

Anger accompanied with denial or submission to reality accompanied with self pity.

 

I can't see the benefit of either one of these states.

 

I've never heard a smoker tell me that it was good for them and I think the evidence is clear on this. While some people smoke and live long lives, its clear that the "quality" of life of any smoker is diminished at any age. During any stage of the smoking process, I wouldn't call terrible hacking coughs, high blood pressure, artery damage, not to mention the irreversible diseases it can cause as being a good quality of life.

 

Ask any doctor about their patients as to how they can be healthier and the "FIRST" reply is stop smoking.

 

We should not be in denial of cigarettes being a health risk and I think most smokers will eventually see this as a undeniable truth. I remember watching ACS TV ads of Yule Brenner finally reaching this conclusion. So sad and heartbreaking.

 

The main issue on a legel standpoint is should I be exposed to the same risks for somebody else's behavior when it is commonly known to be a major health risk.

 

As a smoker, would you come into a nightclub once a day and throw a little bit of dillluted acid on everyone? Would you take a small pocket knife and put a knick in everyone's skin? Would you fill the room with a slight amount of natural gas from the kitchen's stove? Of course not, because all smokers have a sense of morality that would prevent them from doing this.

 

The majority of smokers are moral and responsible people when it comes to another persons health and are OK with refraining from smoking in an enclosed area or within a close proximity to another person. These people also typically understand that cigarette companies are out for profit and not the health of their customers.

 

The smoker's that don't care to be responsible when it comes to another persons health are also typically irresponsible about other things.

 

Now where any how do we apply smoking laws. Part of that question depends on if there are enough of the smoker's that don't care to be responsible when it comes to another persons health to warrant making a restriction in public places. Many places where there is an overwhelming amount of non-smokers (such as where I live - Los Angeles area), the laws that ban smoking in public places have passed. This does seems fair.

 

Do I care if someone smokes alone by themselves in their own home?

 

I don't think that there should necessarily be a law to prevent it. But if someone asked me "Do I care if someone smokes alone by themselves in their own home?" my answer would have to be be "Yes, I care".

 

This is because I already lost my grandmother on my wife's side of the family to cancer from smoking as diagnosed by many physicians. My mother -in -law has to wear a small oxygen tank with her at all times. When I met my wife (in high school), she smoked (to my surprise starting at 14 years old). I told her I really like everything about you except the smoking. If you want a relationship with me, I'll support you if you quit". Here we are 20 years later. The fact is, she still has the mental cravings occasionally to take a puff when she sees another person smoke (although it's not often). But we're talking twenty years later that the mental addiction remains long after the physical addiction is over. That's how powerful this type of addiction is.

 

BTW - I like to eat too much on occasion. That's my weakness. I'm woking on it.

 

What we must understand about addiction is that we all have the capacity to become addicted. It is part of the human condition on a mental, physical and spiritual nature.

 

I really think we should take all the energy we spend in debating this issue and put it into:

 

1. Helping those who want to quit do so in a non-judgemental way

 

2. Making cigarette companies be truthful and let them be regulated as a addictive drug with all the constraints the we use for any other product we consume. If someone put anti-freeze in my tuna, I'd want someone to legally force them to stop it and then imprison them for trying to poison me. I won't feel regret when they go away permanently.

 

3. Openly discuss and educate adults and children alike as to the nature of any kind of addiction much more than we are doing now. Focus on it's recognition in it's early stages and how to cease it's continuation. I can tell you from my family's experience, quitting smoking is 100 times harder than starting.

 

4. If you are a parent that smokes, please try to quit for the sake of your child's future. What could be worse than watching your own child start an addictive behavior. It breaks the heart.

If you are a non-smoking parent, be good enough to your child to know what his outside influences are at all times and don't pretend he will never have to deal with these issues. Start at age 5 or 6 and never quit.

 

5. Don't be a finger pointer, be compassionate. Understand that most smokers actually know how bad a health risk they're taking and really to want to get off the hamster's wheel (as I've heard it described as). If the offending person is one of the few who just enjoys just being offensive, eliminate them from your life altogether.

 

On my side of the family, my father smokes one or two cigarettes a day and at 71 years of ag is in resonable health. He'll refrain from smoking if someone asks. I still beg him to quit. My mom would never smoke in a million years.

 

Also, I have been in the hospital about 22 times (Thanks to mostly cleft palatte repair).

I can remember one hospital visit making good freinds with a room mate who was about 36. I was 18. The doctor pullesd the curtain around his bed to discuss this condition within. He had lung tumors that sread into his lymph glands and into his neck. His Mom was with them asking how much surgery would help. The doctor asked him if he wanted the whole truth and he replied "give it to me striaght, doc". The sad news was that an operation would make no difference in his overall condition, but it could prolong his life another 6 weeks to 6 months. As he began to cry, I began to cry.

 

As you can see, I have a unique perspective on this issue. But I am sure of one thing. I am heart sick when I lose a family member or a friend to smoking. When my mother -in law goes from smoking, I will feel heart sick and my wife will be even worse. Until things really change,.I will feel pain whenever this happens.

 

Larry Hopkins

California resident

[djwayne]

Thanks for the propaganda beetching out session, thought this was a keyboard/music forum.

The troublemakers always want to go off topic.

 

Now ya wanna tell us how wonderful gay sex is, and how it should be tolerated, but not smoking ??

 

Now we're "thowing acid" ?? ya right...get lost

[progfusion74]

Best part about living in California .. no smoke. Wish it was like that everywhere in the world

[djwayne]

Calofornia, yep, lots of fruits and nuts there.

[Phait]

I've never been a habitual smoker. It's only when I'm reaaaaaally stressed I'll bum a smoke. It got the point where I wasn't craving a cig, but I started smoking one or 2 here every other while when I wasn't really stresed. I questioned that. I never intended to get hooked, so if I smoked it was kind of rare. I *can* go without a smoke for as long as I like. I'm not addicted (LOL I sound like that kid in 'Hackers')

 

Now, I've seen a mighty fine black lung before. Just in picture. Last night though, I dreamt I saw half-sections of lungs that were damaged from smoking.

 

I think I'm done smoking now ^_^.

 

(Yeah right watch when something bad happens and I'm freakin' out and I bum a cig).

 

I was told herbal cigs are better, but I was also told they're not - because regardless, it's still smoke - sans chemicals.. O_o

[Prague]

Originally posted by Rabid:

[/qb]Your logic has a major flaw. Not everyone thinks the same....Not everyone wants smoke free clubs....A division of smoking and non-smoking clubs might be an alternative, but even that will require laws.

[/QB]

Why would that require laws?

 

My "flaw" is that everyone has a choice to go wherever they want to, or not. That's because everyone doesn't think the same.

 

I just can't see the need for government force IF everyone demanded clubs to their liking. IF 2/3 of the club-goers wanted non-smoking clubs, where are the new clubs? Why was government edict required? Why didn't anyone open up non-smoking clubs? It seems the demand wasn't there, I guess. If it were, clubs would have sprouted up all over, but they didn't.

 

Personally, I don't care what adults do in their spare time at private establishments. Hell, if I don't like the BAND, I'll leave the place! I just don't need babysitters.

 

I hope there's no ban on bands that are "too loud" (there are OSHA standards for workplace noise. Look out!).

 

Exit, stage left.

[Kaptain Karl]

I think its great. I moved from Minnesota with no ban to California and find it very pleasing to go to a club and come home not wreaking of cigarettes and being able to wear those clothes again without having to wash them just to get the smoke stink out of them.

I do occasionally have a cig so its nice when a club does have an outside area for smoking. It also makes a great place for conversations away from the typically too loud P.A.

I'm sure it will/does hurt business but I'm sure that most will eventually come around.

[Marzzz]

Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer:

I'm soooo looking forward to smoking bans! In the Phoenix metro areas, we have a couple of cities, like Tempe and Mesa where smoking is banned. I LOVED playing in them!! It was really nice to be able to breath.

I have talked to those bar owners who argue that it's not fair for neighboring cities to have different laws on the smoking issue. It would impact them to a lesser degree if the entire state would adopt the law. I tend to agree.

 

Rick

Rick,

 

One can only hope!!!! Nothing makes me happier than smoking bans, and high taxes on cigarettes. The amount of health care resources that goes toward smoking-related diseases (paid for by medicare, which comes out of your taxes) is astounding....all those women wearing pink ribbons for breast cancer, while lung cancer is the #1 cancer killer in women since the mid 80's, and oh so preventable!

[Dave Horne]

Should non-smokers (isn't it great to be defined by what you don't do?) pay increased insurance premiums to cover the increased hospital costs for smokers? Since most issues ultimately come down to money, how should this particular issue be approached?

[Analogaddict]

There must be many other addictions apart from smoking tobacco that would work great for club owners. Imagine being able to sell and use heroin, cocaine and acid in clubs. The dance floor would really be a dance floor, and the lounge would be veeery loungy. And the best part is that most of these substances don´t affect anybody but the user - no second hand smoke! For my personal health, people popping pills would be far better than them smoking. If tobacco had been found and used today, it would´ve been banned by law as a narcotic - but so would coffee... I like my coffee...

 

/J nas

[RABid]

Originally posted by djwayne:

Thanks for the propaganda beetching out session, thought this was a keyboard/music forum.

The troublemakers always want to go off topic.

 

Now ya wanna tell us how wonderful gay sex is, and how it should be tolerated, but not smoking ??

 

Now we're "thowing acid" ?? ya right...get lost

Spoken like someone who is truly addicted and in denial.

 

Robert

[djwayne]

Originally posted by Rabid:

Originally posted by djwayne:

Thanks for the propaganda beetching out session, thought this was a keyboard/music forum.

The troublemakers always want to go off topic.

 

Now ya wanna tell us how wonderful gay sex is, and how it should be tolerated, but not smoking ??

 

Now we're "thowing acid" ?? ya right...get lost

Spoken like someone who is truly addicted and in denial.

 

Robert

Spoken only in response to harassment.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by djwayne:

Thanks for the propaganda beetching out session, thought this was a keyboard/music forum.

The troublemakers always want to go off topic.

 

Now ya wanna tell us how wonderful gay sex is, and how it should be tolerated, but not smoking ??

 

Now we're "thowing acid" ?? ya right...get lost

djwayne, let's get some decaf in that mug.

 

As far as I can fathom, smoking in clubs is simply a health issue, nothing more.

 

If anyone is stupid enough to smoke, please continue to do so, just don't do it around me.

 

Oh, and while you're at it, could you place those butts in a proper place and not on the ground. I get really annoyed with stupid people who litter (and those stupid people who walk their dogs and don't clean up after them).

 

I feel better ... I cleaned the air.

[djwayne]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Originally posted by djwayne:

Thanks for the propaganda beetching out session, thought this was a keyboard/music forum.

The troublemakers always want to go off topic.

 

Now ya wanna tell us how wonderful gay sex is, and how it should be tolerated, but not smoking ??

 

Now we're "thowing acid" ?? ya right...get lost

djwayne, let's get some decaf in that mug.

 

As far as I can fathom, smoking in clubs is simply a health issue, nothing more.

 

If anyone is stupid enough to smoke, please continue to do so, just don't do it around me.

 

Oh, and while you're at it, could you place those butts in a proper place and not on the ground. I get really annoying with stupid people who litter (and those stupid people who walk their dogs and don't clean up after them).

 

I feel better ... I cleaned the air.

Note to myself-- Never ever get in a band with a non-smoker. They're more concerned with fouling the air with their nasty words than anything else. They have an agenda, they have a problem, and can't function in a real world setting, without annoying those around them. They scream out like a baby with a wet diaper, until they get their way. Nothing but aggrevation.

[RABid]

To go a bit off topic, which may be a good thing at this time ....

 

Has anyone else noticed that only non-smokers sell items on ebay? Most every rack mount synth being sold is from a "smoke free" environment. I did not realize there were so many smoke free studios scattered across the country. I also did not realize that there are so many "hard up musicians who must sell their favorite piece of gear", and that these musicians must own hundreds of items. So many claims of "having to sell off my studio" are from people with 400+ seller ratings. There must be a lot of huge studios going out of business.

 

Robert

[djwayne]

Originally posted by Rabid:

To go a bit off topic, which may be a good thing at this time ....

 

Has anyone else noticed that only non-smokers sell items on ebay? Most every rack mount synth being sold is from a "smoke free" environment. I did not realize there were so many smoke free studios scattered across the country. I also did not realize that there are so many "hard up musicians who must sell their favorite piece of gear", and that these musicians must own hundreds of items. So many claims of "having to sell off my studio" are from people with 400+ seller ratings. There must be a lot of huge studios going out of business.

 

Robert

Yep, It's a tough business. I recorded in a non smoking studio once, It was a nigtmare. Tensions were high, and the resulting recording was no better than what I could do at home. I couldn't wait to leave the place, and never went back. Not smoking was such a big issue with the guy, the music seemed secondary. I prefer having my own smokin' studio, even if I have to clean once in awhile, it's just more relaxed, except when non-smokers show up wanting free recordings. Thank God they're gone !!

[RABid]

Relax djwayne. Let the anger flow away and try to find peace with the world. Just repeat

 

"Non-smokers are not out to get me.

Non-smokers are not the anti-Christ."

 

Of course, we are out to get you. Once we grow tired of your torment we will toss you in Hell and let you smoke all you want. That is what we anti-Christ do.

 

Robert

[djwayne]

Originally posted by Rabid:

Relax djwayne. Let the anger flow away and try to find peace with the world. Just repeat

 

"Non-smokers are not out to get me.

Non-smokers are not the anti-Christ."

 

Of course, we are out to get you. Once we grow tired of your torment we will toss you in Hell and let you smoke all you want. That is what we anti-Christ do.

 

Robert

Now if we could only stop you from picking our pockets with your sin taxes, that would be great.

[Dave Horne]

djwayne, if you could do it all over again, would you still have taken up smoking?

[Dave Horne]

This reminds me of the old joke from when I was a kid. Back then the cigarette companies gave out coupons with every pack.

 

What can you get with 10,000 Marlboro coupons?

 

Lung cancer.

 

Seriously, my father gave up smoking after he started coughing up blood in the morning. He went to the doctor and the advice was, quit smoking. I could have saved him a visit, but I was a kid and he didn't listen to me.

 

Let me make myself a note here - don't work with illiterate musicians who smoke.

[djwayne]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

djwayne, if you could do it all over again, would you still have taken up smoking?

Yes, I grew up in a very nerve racking atmosphere. It was either smoke or do valiums & booze, and that wasn't an option for me. My old man was a ex Marine sargent, you try living with a sargent. Most soldiers only have to go thru boot camp for 6 weeks, I had to go thru it for 25 years. Smoking was very common place in my surroundings, almost everybody I knew smoked at that time, and no thought was given to it. If I would have gone the valium & booze route, I would have been dead years ago.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by djwayne:

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

djwayne, if you could do it all over again, would you still have taken up smoking?

Yes, I grew up in a very nerve racking atmosphere. It was either smoke or do valiums & booze, and that wasn't an option for me. My old man was a ex Marine sargent, you try living with a sargent. Most soldiers only have to go thru boot camp for 6 weeks, I had to go thru it for 25 years. Smoking was very common place in my surroundings, almost everybody I knew smoked at that time, and no thought was given to it. If I would have gone the valium & booze route, I would have been dead years ago.

The gov't actually encourages smoking (and drinking) by offering the products at a very reduced price for their employees.

[Rick K.]

Originally posted by paostby:

Bands have a choice to play there or not.

I can't disagree with this. I do have a choice to not play there. I might as well hang it up then. Just sucks that someone else's choice to contaminate the air is dissuading me from earning an income and perhaps living longer.

 

OR.....

 

Maybe I could sue the club for providing a hostile and unhealthy work environment! Then I could BUY the club, make it non-smoking, attract all those who have a few extra bucks that they didn't spend on cigs and sell them more alcohol, and make yet another fortune!!Hmm.....that's a thought...

 

Rick

[Prague]

Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer:

...Maybe I could sue the club for providing a hostile and unhealthy work environment! Then I could BUY the club, make it non-smoking, attract all those who have a few extra bucks that they didn't spend on cigs and sell them more alcohol, and make yet another fortune!!Hmm.....that's a thought...

You could possibly do this if you worked for the club. You knew the house rules going in, so you can't complain.

 

Why don't you go the route of all business owners and simply start a business? Is a non-smoking club doomed to failure? If so, then you wouldn't want the ban, either.