Prog keyboardists

[Tim Clark]

First off, I'm a big prog fan, especially classic Genesis. Tony Banks' lines completely move me in a way not even Emerson or Wakeman can do. Something very tasteful about the way he plays...

 

Secondly, is it just me, or do a lot of the modern progressive rock acts sound like they're a bit too concerned with nostalgia? I've picked up a lot of albums by the modern guys to try to get into it (Spock's Beard comes to mind) and it just all seems to be saying "Gee, remember when music sounded like this? Wasn't that a great time?"...Personally, I'd like to see these guys take the spirit of prog and move forward instead of reminiscing...

 

The musicianship is definitely there though. Ryo from Spock's Beard is a fantastic keys player.

[Dog Tales]

Originally posted by Tim Clark:

 

The musicianship is definitely there though. Ryo from Spock's Beard is a fantastic keys player.[/QB]

Ryo is a good choice! Check out the Beard's newest release Feel Euphoria for more.

Mark Robertson of Cairo is an absolute monster with all the chops of Keith Emerson.

Tomas Bodin of The Flower Kings is Mr Creativity deluxe. Yes, he uses some "old" sounds but his use of "new" is amazing.

Derrick Sherinian & Jordan Ruddess are a couple more guys who know how to play properly too.

[progfusion74]

One of the main reasons I love the OSI project is that while prog rock, it is different from the norm. Not retro-prog, nor a Dream Theater clone.

[Gulliver]

Ditto for OSI. I dig them very much too!

And while such bands as Spock's Beard, The Flower Kings, (and Transatlantic for that matter) have a lot of moments in their music which remind us of oldest prog, they still sound pretty contemporary IMHO. I am familiar with a lot of today's prog bands music but those bands which sound totally retro (without any original voice of their own) even don't come to mind right now!...

Oh, one of them ... Pendragon. (This one probably is the most famous among various prog wannabies.) What a great attempt to be completely unoriginal!

And there are quite a bunch of such the collectives "doing their best" to give a bad reputation to the word prog.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by Gulliver:

As for IQ... It always puzzles me why almost everyone compares them to Genesis! (Oh, and I think their sound has nothing to do with Styx! ). A comparison to the early Marillion would be more precise, imo. (But then again, early Marillion was compared to the old Genesis a lot, so go figure...).

Yeah, I know what you mean. They aren't like Genesis at all. Then again the one tune I watched, I could tell the arrangements had some post Duke Genesis (Mama era) influence. I don't think they write like Genesis, but they arrange a bit like them at times.

 

That brings me to my "cup is half empty" statement. I believe the first wave of successful proggers wrote some great melodies. You could take Endless Enigma or Soon (from Gates of Delirium) or Firth of Fifth and put those melodies against some classic folk/classical/pop songs .. and they would come out as pretty strong contenders. I am hard pressed to find the same dedication to writing (melody, expository form, dramatic coherecy and plot) in these new pieces.

 

Am I alone in this feeling?

 

Jerry

[progfusion74]

Well half-empty is better than completely empty. The best thing about prog today is the collaborative projects going on, e.g. Transatlantic, OSI, Gordian Knot and Mullmuzzler. I hope this trend continues. As Portnoy says in Keyboard mag, OSI would have been very much in the power prog vein if Kevin Moore had not come on board. Similarly, in Transatlantic, Portnoy's drumming is very understated, and the vibe is just so good.

 

prog

[tenthplanet]

Originally posted by Tusker:

 

That brings me to my "cup is half empty" statement. I believe the first wave of successful proggers wrote some great melodies. You could take Endless Enigma or Soon (from Gates of Delirium) or Firth of Fifth and put those melodies against some classic folk/classical/pop songs .. and they would come out as pretty strong contenders. I am hard pressed to find the same dedication to writing (melody, expository form, dramatic coherecy and plot) in these new pieces.

 

Am I alone in this feeling?

 

Jerry

No, you are not. You have expressed in better words than I, what I was trying to say when I started this thread.

 

Michael

[coyote]

The first generation of prog happened at a unique moment in history. In the late 60s thru mid-70s, there were sea changes in the promotion of artists and merchandising of recordings. Independents were able to promote major events in collaboration with larger outfits. And it dovetailed with a public that was truly willing to embrace something different, something which required a bit of an attention span to appreciate.

 

Those days are gone. Nowadays if you don't get airplay on a ClearChannel station you cannot get into any events or venues controlled by ClearChannel. This means you cannot make the leap from small ballroom-type venues to larger halls and festivals. When was the last time you heard ANY new prog on a major radio station? The media claim to just give us what we want, yet everyone knows that by controlling so much of it such orgs as ClearChannel (and others) basically set the agenda to their own liking. Music merchandising is similar to clothing sales - you have an endless variety of store names, but they all sell the exact same thing. Is it coincidence they are owned by a mere handful of conglomerates?

 

And then there's the ever-shrinking attention span of the average teen or twentysomething nowadays. Even if a new prog outfit emerged with strong melodies, great singing, outstanding composition, amazing soloists, and compelling personalities, it would not be able to fill an arena with young people. Nope, proggers will have to be content (at least for the next few years) to play to hundreds at a time instead of thousands - this is unfortunate because prog (more than most other music) truly takes advantage of the unique characteristics of the mega-amplification required in large theaters and arenas.

 

I think today's version of prog is the so-called 'jam-band'. Such groups as Phish, String Cheese Incident, & others at least provide some interesting, extended instrumental work AND get some popular exposure; groups such as MMW bridge over to jazz a bit.

[Krakit]

The thing is, that most of the major lables in the music industry have been working toward desposable talent for decades. They've pretty much perfected it. Once upon a time, record execs didn't really know what "the kids" wanted to hear. The public chose the next big rock stars by going to venues and buying their albums. The labels gambled on signed acts and when these acts became huge, had to cater to them because they were making them money and frankly the lables didn't know why or when it would stop. Most importantly, lables didn't know when the next "big thing" would show up.

 

Now it is completely differnt. Record labels dictate to the public what the next big thing is. The big stars just pop up from nowhere because the label decides that this prefab product is what you will be buying for the next 18 months or so. The talent dosen't dare become spoiled or demanding, because they no longer are a diomand dug out of a cavernous mine, now they are cookie cutter slap togethers and are as expendable as a Big Mac. Go ahead and throw a tantrum, quit, walk out, we'll make more just like you and the people will buy, so have a nice life.

 

Build a Brittany, a Christina, an N'Sync, a Backstreet Boys and if they give us any guff, they're out on their keysters because we've got a thousand more in storage just waiting to be "imaged", "styled", "hyped" and sold as a plastic comodity.

 

The good news is that this can't last forever and it appears that the music industry might be starting to feel the pinch. The so called "bubble gum" factor is not being taken as serious music for the average consumer anymore. The demographics for such are getting younger and younger and the desposable income of the very young is not as much as their slightly elder counterparts.

 

Good things may be on the horizon.

 

Carl

[David R]

Originally posted by coyote:

I think today's version of prog is the so-called 'jam-band'. Such groups as Phish, String Cheese Incident, & others at least provide some interesting, extended instrumental work AND get some popular exposure; groups such as MMW bridge over to jazz a bit.

Just for my own clarification, you're comparing these bands to prog in terms of bringing instrumental and overall musical proficiency to a larger segment of the general populace, not in terms of musical relation to prog. I'm quite a big fan of MMW, The Slip, Bela Fleck & the Flecktones, Phish and their ilk, but I would never compare them to prog on musical criteria.

 

Just making sure. I agree with everything else in your post. I think the mere fact that the "jambands" (I hate that term with a passion, but what are you going to do?) are able to support multiple large camping festivals each summer is testament to the amount of listeners dissatisfied with what the major avenues of music distribution are forcing down our throats.

 

David

[PianoJazz1951]

...I don't think rock (progressive or otherwise)

is the place to be for keyboardists at this point in music history.

There are no Emersons, etc.; we all know that.

But there are no Billy Joels or Elton Johns in pop, either. For some reason-only Harry Connick, Alicia Keys, Diana Krall, and Norah Jones come to mind as emerging keyboard players of the last 10 years in pop-all have jazz foundations.

 

Emerging keyboard players have cast their lot with jazz. Jazz provides a platform for improvisation far beyond that available in rock- and certainly pop.

But-this is art; it's fluid.

Stay tuned.

[David R]

PianoJazz, I beg to differ. You omitted Ben Folds, who's a lot closer to the Elton John/Joe Jackson school of pop piano playing than the cabaret jazz side. There's a lot of singer-songwriters who utilize the piano prominently: Rufus Wainwright, Ed Harcourt, Jon Ondrasik (Five for Fighting). I wouldn't call any of them virtuosic with the instrument though (and, by the evidence I've heard, none of the ones you mentioned besides Harry Connick seem to be either).

 

David

[coyote]

There IS an Emerson - his name is Keith Emerson!

 

There are plenty of great keyboardists in rock. Whatever you think of Sherinian, Rudess et al they certainly are great players who know their music. It's quite possible that one or many of them will create awesome things as time passes. And there are others such as John Novello who are doing amazing things. Unfortunately, they get about the same amount of attention they'd be getting in jazz.

 

But really, great soloists on ANY instrument no longer matter in pop music (or in current rock). And as rap proves daily, there's little use in pop culture for 'musical' compositions - just throw 'em a beat and some sound effects and they're happy.

 

Originally posted by PianoJazz1951:

...I don't think rock (progressive or otherwise) is the place to be for keyboardists at this point in music history.

There are no Emersons, etc.; we all know that.

But there are no Billy Joels or Elton Johns in pop, either. For some reason-only Harry Connick, Alicia Keys, Diana Krall, and Norah Jones come to mind as emerging keyboard players of the last 10 years in pop-all have jazz foundations.

 

Emerging keyboard players have cast their lot with jazz. Jazz provides a platform for improvisation far beyond that available in rock- and certainly pop.

But-this is art; it's fluid.

Stay tuned.

[PianoJazz1951]

...I hate being so damned negative, but you did remind me there is a Keith Emerson, Coyote.

Fact is, he's in my CD player now.

Other than that, until I hear a domineering

keyboardist in rock or pop like the aforementioned, I stand by my post.

Jazz is where the action is for keyboardists.

[Krakit]

Jazz is fantastic, do not get me wrong. It is also just about the best genre around for real recognition on a wide scale. Again, do not misunderstand me.

 

However, I've been listining to www.progrock.com for about a week now, and there really are a ton of great unheard (at least by me) Progressive Rock bands out there. Not just speed metal disguised as Progressive, or copy cat bands. Real, creative original Progressive Rock. Are they getting rich? I doubt that sincerly. Are they having a good time? You bet your ass they are.

 

It's also pretty hard to get rich playing Jazz as compared to say "pop". Keep that in mind.

 

Carl

[David R]

Originally posted by PianoJazz1951:

...I hate being so damned negative, but you did remind me there is a Keith Emerson, Coyote.

Fact is, he's in my CD player now.

Other than that, until I hear a domineering

keyboardist in rock or pop like the aforementioned, I stand by my post.

Jazz is where the action is for keyboardists.

Find a copy of Bruce Hornsby's Here Come The Noisemakers and/or Spirit Trail. If he doesn't fit your definition of "domineering keyboardist" after listening to those four discs, I don't know what does.

 

And don't go by the original versions of "The Way It Is" and "Mandolin Rain." Great songs, but he's come a long way in 17 years. He is definitely worth checking out -- Keith Jarrett and Bill Evans-derived piano improvisation mixed with Garcia/Elton John-type songwriting.

 

Josh Dodes (www.jdband.com) is a Bruce Hornsby-influenced rock singer/songwriter/keyboardist as well. He was profiled in Keyboard a few years back by Ernie with great praise.

 

David

[Synthguy]

I have to second checking out progrock.com. They have a fantastic net radio stream which plays some of the best in progressive rock, modern and classic. In fact I contributed several albums to their catalog, while my mp3 encoder was still working.

 

As for the issue of overplaying, if you can do it with passion as well as chops, then it isn't overplaying. A lot of these new prog bands pour their souls into their music and it works well.

 

For those who want progressive rock to move on from their 70s roots, when a band does, invariably they simply add some heavy metal guitar like Symphony X, which sounds like Iron Maiden with some synthesizers tossed in, and that does nothing for me. Dream Theater does a good job of mixing the genre, but they don't go nearly far enough. Derek Sherinian and Jordan Rudess do much better. In my own efforts to create a prog album, I'll be trying for that old school sound while hopefully not sounding too derrivative or poppy. And hopefully finding a few kindred spirits to add some actual instruments to the mix other than my synthesizers!

 

Here's to the rare breed.

[progfusion74]

progrock.com is great.

 

Also try out

 

http://www.progradio.net/stations.htm . A big list of stations

[Tim Clark]

>>But there are no Billy Joels or Elton Johns in pop, either.

You haven't heard Ben Folds then...It's like Elvis Costello's lyrics mixed with Elton's early playing style, and it's actually really successful. He's selling out pretty decent sized venues across the country. Great stuff...

 

(I think I may take some flak for what I'm about to post!) I think that progressive rock isn't dead. I think it just "progressed" past the mythological beasts and flashy sequin capes. One of the most anticipated and highly acclaimed acts nowadays is the art-rock group Radiohead. Indie/Emo bands like Bright Eyes and the Flaming Lips are writing concept albums, the latter of which won a grammy for an instrumental last year. These are bands that are noticed and appreciated for what they do. They may not be writing 30-minute epics, but if you listen, the fundamental elements of the new prog revolution is there.

 

Sure we don't have any Keith Emersons anymore, but I'm actually happy about that, just like I'm happy that guitarists aren't making the "weedly weedly wee" noises any more. If you want guys trying to one-up Emerson, go to Spock's Beard or Flower Kings.

[dementia13]

That brings me to my "cup is half empty" statement. I believe the first wave of successful proggers wrote some great melodies. You could take Endless Enigma or Soon (from Gates of Delirium) or Firth of Fifth and put those melodies against some classic folk/classical/pop songs .. and they would come out as pretty strong contenders. I am hard pressed to find the same dedication to writing (melody, expository form, dramatic coherecy and plot) in these new pieces.

 

Am I alone in this feeling?

No. For instance, Dream Theater: I can't not love a band that sounds like a cross between ELP and Megadeth, but Images and Words in particular suffers from technique at the expense of songwriting. Here's a couple of bands you should seek out: Ambeon and Lacuna Coil. I don't know that you'll find the same kind of form with them, but you will find melody, atmosphere and emotion.