Advice for working with guitar players . . .

[shniggens]

To all of you that go both ways (guitar and keys):

 

I need some advice communicating with my guitar player. I've never been really good working with guitar players. Never really met any guitar players that seem to be very versatile, or knowledgable of basic music theory. Of course, I've only met a few. But out of all the musical friends I have, guitar players make up 80%.

 

Unfortunately, I do not know how to play the guitar. Actually, I don't know much about it at all.

 

How does the guitar differ from the piano when playing changes? When I tell my guitarist some chord changes, sometimes he comments on how far of a move one chord to the next is. Isn't voiceleading the same concept on a guitar? Shouldn't they be able to make the changes smoothly, seamlessly like on a piano? Or do you have to jump from one spot on the fretboard to another just to make a basic chord change? Can't you make chord changes within a specific octave without moving all over the place? For example - C7 to F7 should be right next to each other if you use the proper inversion and voice it right, RIGHT?!?!? Even on guitar . . .

 

It's getting somewhat frustrating for me. Our guitarist has an excellent ear, and can pick stuff up relatively quickly (if you play it over and over for him), but it's hard to just tell him what to play.

 

Sorry for the rant.

[Dave Horne]

I'll make this fast as I have to go to bed. I've worked with excellent guitarists and we would simply agree when to play together and when not to.

 

It's really not necessary to have two chord playing instruments playing at the same time unless they are playing the same exact chords. I could go on about this, but, IMO, agree when to play together and when to play apart, that's half the battle, so to speak. (I've also worked with really bad guitarists, but they're not part of this equation.)

[RABid]

Well, it is not the guitar, it is the musicians you are dealing with. It may just seem like the guitar because a larger percentage of guitarists do not have any formal training and have not taken the time to learn theory when compared to keyboard players. I started out as a guitarist in my first cover band, then changed to keyboards when I got a chance to play with a especially talented guitarist. Even though I had a few years of piano lessons and quite a bit of music theory, and he had no real training or theory, it was all natural for him. If a new song came on the radio while we were in the car he would start naming the chords. He is the only person I ever played with that could transcribe a song without using an instrument for reference. He had so much potential as a rock guitarist. Sadly, he sold his soul to country music. I dont know why he wanted to spend years playing lead for Barbara Mandrel when he could have kept playing clubs and lodges with cover bands.

 

Anyway, there are a few differences between keyboard and guitar, and in the mindset of those musicians. It is much easier to jump between some chords on keyboard. Sure, you can do alternate chords on guitar but the fingering can get a bit strange, and guitarists seem to have a greater since of the root note than keyboardists. Especially if you are playing root based rhythm guitar and not just strums.

 

I suggest you spend a few weeks with guitar. If you are comfortable with keyboard then it should be a quick study. Im not saying you will be good in a few weeks, but you can pick up the basics of rhythm guitar, and a greater understanding of the instrument. You will also notice how many old rock and roll songs were written in E or A.

 

Robert

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by shniggens:

Isn't voiceleading the same concept on a guitar? Shouldn't they be able to make the changes smoothly, seamlessly like on a piano?

The guitar's design makes for several advantages over that of the piano. Ease of voice leading is definitely not one of those advantages. Voice leading on guitar is not unexplored territory, but I've met few guitarists that can do it well, and even then it was inconsistent...

[coyote]

I play both.

 

The guitar gives two octaves plus a fourth within any five-fret (position) range. If a guitarist knows the fretboard well, he/she rarely need move more than one or two positions to hit the next note or chord. Of course, if you're doing BlackSabbath-style barre chords then you do have to move around the neck a lot. And if you're running more than two octaves in a melodic sequence you also need to move around the fretboard a bit; learning proper arpeggio technique is a great assist in this.

[Rick K.]

My advice for working with guitar players....

 

Break off the volume knobs!!!

[Analogaddict]

Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer:

My advice for working with guitar players....

 

Break off the volume knobs!!!

Oh so true...

Sometimes when we´re rehearsing with my blues band, I tilt the guitar player´s amp up towards his ears (as opposed to his knee pits), and he usually goes "wow, that´s loud!". My method for blending is to start by pushing the 16' drawbar all the way in and working the rest of them as usual. I feel that adds a lot of clarity to the overall sound when playing with guitars.

 

/J nas

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

I'm primarily a guitarist, evevn though I started on piano.

 

Many replies on this thread have been dead-on accurate...it's not the instrument, it's the player. There's little specific toward the guitar that you'd need to change when translating something to a skilled player.

 

His or her knowledge of basic theory is really the question here. You may need to lower the sophistiction of the chord changes you need until your guitarist learns the specific voicings you desire.

 

The other thing I'd add: guitar and keys are competing for frequencies. Although keyboards can go lower and higher in register than guitar, most of the stuff you play is near the same pitch. I find in working with guitarists (or being a guitar player working with keyboardists) that if you plan around how not to step on each other's performance, everyone's happier.

 

- Jeff

[Gus Lozada]

Get another guitar player ... period.

[shniggens]

Originally posted by Gus Lozada:

Get another guitar player ... period.

Unfortunately, that was one of my main considerations. Unless the guitar player in question actually does something to better his musical knowledge.

 

Am I being elitist? I mean, he is a friend.

 

Let me give you guys an example. We were running through "Whipping Post". The section after the solo section where it goes through a little rythmic variation running up the G scale, he just couldn't get it. It literally runs up the G scale - note for note (you know the part I'm talking about). And he kept asking me to play it. I told him it runs up the G scale, and apparantly he does not know what that means.

 

Am I asking too much?

 

I am curious . . . do most of the "proficient" or "tight" musical groups actually communicate their musical ideas through their theoretical knowledge, or do they play by ear? Am I old fashioned?

 

I just think it's easier to convey music by saying - "it's in G, the progression is I-VII-V-I", for example, instead of saying "It goes like this, listen".

[SurrealMcCoyJazz]

I feel that it is entirely up to the individual musician to take the time to learn to "speak the language".

 

I find it at the least, frustrating along with consuming time to try to explain theory or harmony onstage to a player that's lazy.

 

The sad fact is when I work with a supposed "reputable" player.......who yells across stage......"play a I-VI-II-V progression with an 'off chord'(usually an altered dominant) in the middle".

[RABid]

If he is a friend, and he has some talent, maybe you just need to spend some time teaching him the basics of scales, chords, and theory. Then either find him a teacher or a good book.

 

Robert

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by Rabid:

...Sadly, he sold his soul to country music. I dont know why he wanted to spend years playing lead for Barbara Mandrel when he could have kept playing clubs and lodges with cover bands...

Haha, good one. Is he still playing? I'd give anything to be able to hear progressions automatic like him, without an instrument. I guess that's pretty rare. I hope I can continue to get better at it.

[coyote]

That run is more accurately in A dorian (til the F# G G# A chromatic to finish off). If you tell someone it runs the G scale, they may think it starts on G which it clearly does not.

 

This would be an ideal opportunity to clue your friend in on the various modes. And yes, it would also be cool to explain to him how the labels (root, minor 6th, etc) allow a player to remove the limitation of key sigs from his musical thinking. IF he's willing to learn of course - some folks are content to know their blues scale and leave it at that.

 

Originally posted by shniggens:

I told him it runs up the G scale, and apparantly he does not know what that means.

 

Am I asking too much?

 

I am curious . . . do most of the "proficient" or "tight" musical groups actually communicate their musical ideas through their theoretical knowledge, or do they play by ear? Am I old fashioned?

 

I just think it's easier to convey music by saying - "it's in G, the progression is I-VII-V-I", for example, instead of saying "It goes like this, listen".

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by shniggens:

It literally runs up the G scale - note for note (you know the part I'm talking about). And he kept asking me to play it. I told him it runs up the G scale, and apparantly he does not know what that means.

 

Am I asking too much?

No, you're not. You are playing with someone who doesn't speak the same language as you. This is a problem.

 

Since you'll probably continue working with the guy, and don't want to spend the next year teaching him, here are some crutches:

 

1. Play the song for him, or make him listen to it on his own. Guitarists with no theory training can still play by ear.

 

2. Tell him the notes, exactly. This is time consuming and tedious, but literally say, "Start on the A. Yeah, the fifth fret on your low E string. Now B. Now C. D. E. F#. Then G. Okay, you got it."

 

Other than kicking his ass to the curb, you'll have to go through these measures to get him up to speed.

 

- Jeff

[ManInTheBox]

Dickey Betts swears he plays by ear, and has little to no training in theory. But since he talks as if he knows theory "I wouldn't hesitate to rest on the dominant seventh over the I or the V chord" I believe he has at least taken the time to learn the terminology.

If the progression is actually in A dorian, then it may be easier to just say "it is in A Dorian. Listen, we play through the Gmajor scle, but start on A."

Before you new theory, you talked the same dumb language as we(guitarist) do. "that should have been a half step there, no that's a little flat"

If the guy can do most of what you need him to do by ear, then he is talented, and ahead of the curve for today's generation of Tab-dependant players. Just spend a little time teaching him the terminology, so that you can soon be speaking the same language. If he has a good ear, make him a tape or cd or a playlist in his mp3 player, and encourage him to do some of the work on his own.

[Dave Horne]

An old joke -

 

How do you get a guitar player to play softly?

 

Put a sheet of music in front of him.

[Analogaddict]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

An old joke -

 

How do you get a guitar player to play softly?

 

Put a sheet of music in front of him.

 

J nas

[ELP71]

I have encountered this problem in several situations with guitarists. It all comes down to the frustration of not being able to communicate with your band mate. Plus, some guitarists that I've been 'fortunate' enough to play with get pretty staunch about NOT WANTING to know more about the music they're playing...which is of course code for 'I'm too intimidated to learn'.

 

My advice is - be elitist about it if you want to have a good musical experience. You can't spend your time teaching everyone else in the band how to play! Talk about sucking the life out of an otherwise great thing.

 

On the other hand, if the situation you're in is a strictly casual one, then just back off and have fun.

[coyote]

There's one big IF here.

 

IF your bandmates are asking questions and showing willingness to learn, it can be a wonderful experience. I used to giv drum lessons years ago. There's nothing that makes you learn faster than teaching others.

 

On the other hand, IF you find yourself having to force-feed theory to your bandmates it will quickly get tedious - in which case ELP71's advice is on-target.

 

Originally posted by ELP71:

My advice is - be elitist about it if you want to have a good musical experience. You can't spend your time teaching everyone else in the band how to play! Talk about sucking the life out of an otherwise great thing. On the other hand, if the situation you're in is a strictly casual one, then just back off and have fun.

[Dave Pierce]

Just my opinion, of course, but...

 

If I can't say something like: "Go to the sharp V on the turnaround" and have the person know what I mean, I pretty much don't want to play music with them. If he's a really good friend...well, do you both golf or something?

 

--Dave

[Entropiastrife]

make sure everyone of your solos trade off one another and that you are as badass as the Alex Staropoli/Luca Turilli partnership in Rhapsody.

[RABid]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

Haha, good one. Is he still playing? I'd give anything to be able to hear progressions automatic like him, without an instrument. I guess that's pretty rare. I hope I can continue to get better at it.

Yes he is. Another country band but I don't remember the name of the singer. I'll ask some of my friends that listens to country. Thinking back, playing with Roger probably influenced my style more than my early piano lessons. I HAD to do something to avoid being blown off of the stage and quickly realized that my best responce was developing my lead synth abilities.

 

Robert

[michael saulnier]

I noticed that in your description of what you DON'T like about playing with your friend, you didn't mention what to DO like about playing with him...

 

The answer to that question probably will tell you if it's worth trying to educate or live with the differences in your musical vocabulary and understanding of theory.

 

If he's otherwise a decent player, or simply a great friend, it's probably worth trying to work things out...

 

I play both guitar and keyboards, but consider myself much more of a guitarist. I have a working knowledge of theory, but am more of a "by ear" player on both guitar and keys.

 

One thing experienced "ear" players can, or should be able to do, is quickly listen and learn on their own... so if he's strictly a by ear player, I'd suggest making a "band cd" of the songs you want to play, discuss what parts should be "note for note" and let him learn on his own away from you and the rest of the band...

 

If you want to "educate" him a bit and he's open to it... It might be useful to chart out some of the songs you're playing not only with the chord changes, but also the musical notation that you want him to know. If he can relate a I-VII-V-I in G progression to a song he knows, he should be able to more easily translate what you're saying to other keys and songs.

 

Compared to most other instruments, guitarists can often gain reasonable ability without formal training or theory knowledge. Sometimes all you need to do is offer to explain how this works and they dive right in... sometimes not.

 

In order to help your friend grow, it wouldn't hurt you to gain a modest bit of knowledge about guitars. From your original question about chord changes, it seems you aren't familiar with where notes and chords occur on the fretboard. It might be useful to know for example that there are typically three main root based chord positions with the roots on the E, A, and D strings... (the low three strings). Using these you can easily move through changes without having major "jumps"... my guess is that your friend may only know and use one or maybe two of these root forms if he's complaining about "jumping" around too much... Imagine what it would be like playing keyboard and being limited to 1st position triads??? Hard to play AND bad sounding. If this is the case, he's got to learn more, or you're left trying to put up with his limitations.

 

Well good luck with your journey with your friend. Hopefully you'll find a common way of learning and playing that works for you.

 

guitplayer

[Dave Horne]

Dave Pierce,

 

 

Going to a flat VI might be what you mean? In C major going to G# ..., I think Ab, flat VI.

 

... or am I not understanding what you meant ...?

[Dave Pierce]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Dave Pierce,

 

 

Going to a flat VI might be what you mean? In C major going to G# ..., I think Ab, flat VI.

 

... or am I not understanding what you meant ...?

You say "tomahto", I say "tomato"...

 

--Dave

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Dave Pierce:

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Dave Pierce,

 

 

Going to a flat VI might be what you mean? In C major going to G# ..., I think Ab, flat VI.

 

... or am I not understanding what you meant ...?

You say "tomahto", I say "tomato"...

 

--Dave

Could you give me an example where going to a # V is preferable than going to a b VI ?

 

Since we're giving guitarists a hard time, it'is our duty to give reasonable examples ... or not?

 

C - G# or Ab

Bb - F# or Gb

G - D# or Eb ... see what I mean? ... or am I not understanding what you mean?