6th versus 13th

[synthetic]

Is there any difference between a 6th chord and a 13th chord? My Steely Dan book (the good one - Cherry Lane's "SD Anthology", not the limp Hal Leonard "SD Complete") lists both for supposedly the same chord. The first time the verse plays, the chords start G6, F6. But the second time, they are listed G13, F13.

 

The only possible difference I could think of is, maybe if you add a 7th to a 6th chord you make it the Major 7th, but to a 13th chord you use the Dominant 7th. But a Dominant 7th sounds a bit sour there. Does anyone know for sure? Thanks, -jl

[Steve111]

Good question. First of all, it's not uncommon at all to find serious mistakes in published music -- especially chord symbols. But assuming it's not a misprint, there really is a difference between a G6 and a G13. A 13th chord is really a dominant chord. When you see a 13, you can assume that the chord includes the lower extensions, or at the very least the flat 7. If you were to include a major 7th instead of the dominant 7th, the chord should read: Gma13 (or similar). However, the G6 chord is a non-leading chord -- that is, it doesn't have a 7th. If it did, it would usually be a major 7th as 6th chords are usually used similarly to major 7 chords. However, in this case, the notes would be G, B, D, E.

Of course, I'm sure someone will point out that it's difficult to know exactly how to spell a chord without knowing the context. That is most certainly true. But in the very simplest case, the above is true.

Hope this helps...

[synthetic]

So I guess I was right in my post. If you were to solo over a G6 you would play an F#, and if you solo over a G13 you play F natural. Cool, thanks!

[Steve111]

Well, yes -- I'd say you're right. But the problem is that it's entirely possible that the G6 was written to describe a particular "voicing" as opposed to the actual "harmony" of the song. In other words, the G6 could really be a G13, but Fagan may have played a voicing that didn't contain the 7th. In other words, context is everything!

 

I think in the end, your ear will be the best judge. I'd suggest that you listen to the original recording to see how that particular chord functions. If you're not sure, try actually playing an F and then an F# to see which "fits". Your ears will ultimately give you the answer.

[schmoron13]

who knew that my degree would actually get some use!!

 

Technically, a 13th chord implies the lower extensions, (dom 7th, 9th, 11th). Thus a G13 has: GBDFACE The problem occurs in that to play all those notes muddies everything up so you start getting into voicings. a common one (assuming the bass or lefthand covers the root (g) is to play the 7th, 3rd, and the 13th....hence (f b e) though this is a jazz voicing....

 

A 6th chord usually omits the 5th, so a G6 has: GBE (now in a diff context, this could be construed as an Em chord)...but the main reason there's a difference is in the scales they use, so unless you plan on soloing over those changes, don't worry too much about it..

[CP]

Alot of times when you see G6 it would be voiced as G 6/9. You would omit the 7th. So a C6 would be voiced C 6/9 or C and A in the left hand, and E,G, and D in the left hand. Or however you want to invert it.

[schmoron13]

who knew that my degree would actually get some use!!

 

Technically, a 13th chord implies the lower extensions, (dom 7th, 9th, 11th). Thus a G13 has: GBDFACE The problem occurs in that to play all those notes muddies everything up so you start getting into voicings. a common one (assuming the bass or lefthand covers the root (g) is to play the 7th, 3rd, and the 13th....hence (f b e) though this is a jazz voicing....

 

A 6th chord usually omits the 5th, so a G6 has: GBE (now in a diff context, this could be construed as an Em chord)...but the main reason there's a difference is in the scales they use, so unless you plan on soloing over those changes, don't worry too much about it..

[synthetic]

Cool, love the voicing stuff! So a G6 I would voice GBEA? (add 9th, never hurts). Theory-wise, it sounds like you would use a G6 as the I chord, but G13 would be a V chord unless it's the blues, which it is in this case.

 

Thanks, -jl

[SoundWrangler]

My Steely Dan book (the good one - Cherry Lane's "SD Anthology", not the limp Hal Leonard "SD Complete")

synthetic, tell us more about the Cherry Lane anthology! I've had the Hal Leonard book for a couple years, & actually thought was quite a good job (although the transcribers' chord-naming choices are sometimes a little foo-foo - notwithstanding the fact that some of SD's clustered harmonies are difficult to hang a single name on anyway). Are the Cherry Lane transciptions full-band? Are they accurate? Do they cover a signicant amount of the SD repertoire (like Gaucho, a least)?

[Dan South]

Originally posted by schmoron13:

who knew that my degree would actually get some use!!

 

Technically, a 13th chord implies the lower extensions, (dom 7th, 9th, 11th). Thus a G13 has: GBDFACE The problem occurs in that to play all those notes muddies everything up so you start getting into voicings. a common one (assuming the bass or lefthand covers the root (g) is to play the 7th, 3rd, and the 13th....hence (f b e) though this is a jazz voicing....

 

Two comments. First, you're correct in that the 13th needs to be thinned in most cases. The eleventh is almost never added unless specified. The ninth us sometimes omitted, also. The real essence of a thirteenth chord is the interplay between the third and seventh (tritone) and between the seventh and the thirteenth (a major seventh interval).

 

Second, when the eleventh is added in major chords, the sharp eleventh is used to avoid a clash with the third. Hence, C13 fully voiced would be

 

C E G Bb D F# A

 

The pure eleventh is more typical in minor chords:

 

Cm11 = C Eb G Bb D F

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by synthetic:

So I guess I was right in my post. If you were to solo over a G6 you would play an F#, and if you solo over a G13 you play F natural. Cool, thanks!

Not nest a celery.

 

A G6 also works in the Mixolydian mode. So you can play either an F or an F#.

 

Indeed you could also use the Lydian mode (C# instead of C)

 

That is Jazz - in Blues, the situation is different.

 

The dominant seventh tends to be associated with the minor blues scale

G Bb C Db D F G

 

The sixth chord tends to be associated with the major blues scale.

 

G A Bb B D E G

 

Note that the dom 7 chord does not actually lie in either scale wheras the 6 chord lies in the major blues scale. But you routinely borrow the missing notes (the minor seventh in the major and the major third in the minor) from the other scale

[D_dup3]

Synthetic, it's a mistake to try to construct "rules" for which notes to use automatically in any situation ...especially based on a limited/incomplete understanding of theory (absolutely no insult intended...we all have things to learn, me included).

 

[Pat Azzarello]

Originally posted by Steve111:

However, the G6 chord is a non-leading chord -- that is, it doesn't have a 7th. If it did, it would usually be a major 7th as 6th chords are usually used similarly to major 7 chords. However, in this case, the notes would be G, B, D, E.

I love these threads...

 

Sometimes you'll see the 6th used instead of a major 7th because of the melody note. If the melody is the tonic (G), then using a major 7th (F#) will normally produce a -9th interval, where a 6th (E) will be more sonorous. In general, a minor 9th interval is not a good sound (OK, the Rite of Spring is VERY cool, but not necessarily a typical pop/jazz color )

 

Other times it is because of the voicing.

 

The only thing my two music schools ever agreed upon was that you should use a 6th when you don't want a 7th, 9th, 11th, or 13th in the chord. Use a 13th when the 7th and 9th are OK (both said that the 11th should only be played if it is specifically called out in the chord symbol).

 

This is true for the 3rd and 11th (4th) in dominant chords as well. If the chord symbol calls for an G11, then it's pretty much a SUS chord with the dominant 7th and 9th. If you don't want the 9th, write it as Gsus7.

 

Confused yet?

[freddynl]

It's always a compromise

 

If the keyboard/pianist wants a 13th, now guess what the guitarist has to play to avoid collission

 

here's is a recent discussion between the guitarist and the pianist; ( I am the guitarist here.)

Hey fred there's something wrong with your G13,

Yes ...I heard, but the tabs say G13 which I played, so apparantly you did not play a G13...

No fred I absolutely played a G13...

Ok...let's hear it...

Wright I need to play a G6th here ...

etc.....

 

Do you think this is true allways????

 

Forget it....

 

For every jazz song I did last month's I had to completely rewrite the tab's for the guitar...

(these were over 50 songs)

So don't trust your fake books !

 

(this was all bebop so no compromises, it is only wright or wrong...)

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Just a side note (as I'm apt to contribute).

 

I find the 6 to be the most dangerous and influential note in any particular mode (once you get past the major/minor aspect of the 3).

 

In terms of feel, whatever that means, the decision in composition and performance to focus on the major versus minor 6 can completely change the tune.

 

Back to topic: yeah, the general use is that a 13th is more likely to function as a dominant (V) chord, usually with some resolution to I unless you're modulating your ass elsewhere. The straight 6th can be whatever the hell you want it to be...including a bunch of Beatlesque song outros.

 

- Jeff

[Postman]

Originally posted by Byrdman:

[QBNot nest a celery.

 

A G6 also works in the Mixolydian mode. So you can play either an F or an F#.

 

Indeed you could also use the Lydian mode (C# instead of C)

 

That is Jazz - in Blues, the situation is different.

 

The dominant seventh tends to be associated with the minor blues scale

G Bb C Db D F G

 

The sixth chord tends to be associated with the major blues scale.

 

G A Bb B D E G

 

Note that the dom 7 chord does not actually lie in either scale wheras the 6 chord lies in the major blues scale. But you routinely borrow the missing notes (the minor seventh in the major and the major third in the minor) from the other scale[/QB]

Gee, Byrd, I can't agree with you on this one. A six chord is pretty firmly associated with a major scale (meaning major third and seventh). Part of the reason for this is that is allows those nice stacked fourth voicings starting on the major seventh: 7-3-6-9-5-1. Pick any three of those in sequence and it will work nicely over a maj6 chord. It may not clash with the mixolydian scale (the scale has a natural six), but that scale is dominant and not major.

 

The blues scale always has a flat seven in it (otherwise it's a major pentatonic with an added flat 3). You can get a bluesy sound by doing that (Bill Evans used this all the time in his solos), but leave out the dominant seven (and the flat five) and I'm not sure you can call it a blues scale.

 

If you play a dominant seven over a six chord, I think it'll sound different than what the chart calls for... which may be what you want.

 

Lydian works fine, though. I like the brightness of the sharp eleven, too.

 

Hey, it's whatever flips your trigger. Rules are made to be broken.

[Postman]

Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy:

In terms of feel, whatever that means, the decision in composition and performance to focus on the major versus minor 6 can completely change the tune.

The more I see minor 6 chords in charts, the more I think they're named incorrectly. They always seem to function as the relative minor's diminished chord (over the minor third). After all, they lead nicely to the V chord, no?

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Postman:

Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy:

In terms of feel, whatever that means, the decision in composition and performance to focus on the major versus minor 6 can completely change the tune.

The more I see minor 6 chords in charts, the more I think they're named incorrectly. They always seem to function as the relative minor's diminished chord (over the minor third). After all, they lead nicely to the V chord, no?

Postman,

 

There's a REASON why a minor sixth leads nicely into the dominant, especially if it's the minor sixth of the fourth (subdominant) chord.

 

iv m6 is the same as ii half-diminished seventh.

 

Consider two progressions in the key of Cm.

 

Fm6 G7(b9) Cm9

 

Dm7(b5) G7(b9) Cm9

 

The latter progression would seem to work based on the circle of fifths, but what about the former. Examine the notes:

 

Dm7(b5) : D F Ab C

 

Fm6 : F Ab C D

 

As Yogi Berra would say, "It's like deja vu all over again!"

 

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Postman:

Gee, Byrd, I can't agree with you on this one. A six chord is pretty firmly associated with a major scale (meaning major third and seventh).

The major blues scale does not contain the 7 (major or minor) Nor the flat 5. It has the same relation to the minor blues scale that the regular major scale does to the minor (ie, the tonic is a minor third higher)

 

So:

 

C minor blues scale C Eb F Gb G Bb C

Eb major blues scale Eb F Gb G Bb C Eb

(transposing)

C major blues scale C D Eb E G A C.

 

Try it and you will see that the major blues scale really is much more major-like than the minor scale and that the presence of the sixth plays a big part in that.

 

So, indeed, the 6 chord is associated with major scales in blues too.

 

As for which seventh to use in Blues, the minor seven is more conventional. It works well as a passing note on the way down to the sixth too.

[synthetic]

Originally posted by SoundWrangler:

synthetic, tell us more about the Cherry Lane anthology! I've had the Hal Leonard book for a couple years, & actually thought was quite a good job (although the transcribers' chord-naming choices are sometimes a little foo-foo - notwithstanding the fact that some of SD's clustered harmonies are difficult to hang a single name on anyway).

I transcribed "Aja" (the song) a few years ago. I was disappointed to see that the Hal Leonard version has this song in C, instead of B like it is on my CD. There are a lot of little things that don't sound quite right in the HL book that seem right in the Cherry Lane book. I just searched Cherry Lane's (AWFUL, BROWSER CRASHING) website and they don't list SD so maybe they lost the account to HL. I bought my copy at Sam Ash, black cover with teal lettering on it.

 

Are the Cherry Lane transciptions full-band? Are they accurate? Do they cover a signicant amount of the SD repertoire (like Gaucho, a least)?

Not full band, just more accurate. I would love a full-band transcription someday. They don't have the solo intro to Doctor Wu, that's the only ommision I noticed. It has plenty of songs from all of their albums, 31 total including IGY (from Nightfly) and "What a shame about me".

 

I just figured out that the Cherry Lane book is distributed by HL, as is the other "SD Complete", published by MCA. Anyway, this is the book to get:

Steely Dan Anthology

[Bobro]

The confusion is based on the fascistic nature of equal temperament. If you know which instrument has the voice/note and where it's going you're set.

 

Whatever, the concepts of chords and harmonies (groups, interactions) as controllers of melodies (individuals) rather than as byproducts of melody , is sick and evil and has created the mass problems of the world as we know it.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

-Bobro

[SoundWrangler]

synthetic (& with apologies for the dual thread here to all the G13 guys: FWIW, it ain't a G13 unless someone's playing an F somewhere in the harmonies; & as Dan South points out, the essence of a 13th chord is that besides the spicy tritone tension between the 3rd & 7th, you get the added piquancy of the major 7th interveral between the 7th and the 13th above it...)

 

Now you've got me really confused about the Steely Dan books from Hal Leonard. The one I have is "The Best of Steely Dan", from HL's "Transcribed Scores" (ISBN 0-7935-2531-4). It's VERY accurate IMHO, & indeed Aja is indeed in B! Full-band transciptions, (including brass parts, backing vocals, gtr lines, bass & drums, etc., but there's only 10 songs. (Aja, Black Friday, Deacon Blues, Do it Again, Hey 19, Kid Charlemagne, My Old School, Peg, Reelin' in the Years). Lots of surprising correct details about parts I thought I "knew" how to play.

 

So, I gather that the "SD Anthology" in your link is the typical "composite" piano part somebody arranged, with a single vocal line on top (although, as you're saying, at least the harmony is accurately labeled per the original)?

[synthetic]

Originally posted by SoundWrangler:

So, I gather that the "SD Anthology" in your link is the typical "composite" piano part somebody arranged, with a single vocal line on top (although, as you're saying, at least the harmony is accurately labeled per the original)?

Right. That "Transcribed Scores" book sounds cool, I'll have to look for that. What I really want is the intro to DF's "Maxine" transcribed, I guess I'll have to do it myself someday. The Nightfly sheet music is out of print and probably didn't include that solo anyway.

[SoundWrangler]

Yeah, I definitely recommend the transcribed scores book. And speaking of Nightfly, if you get hold of a good transcription of his reworking of Ruby Baby, it would remove one piece of unfinished business from my list.

If you like to play the hard stuff, here's a link to another set of full-band transcriptions (which I've already posted on these forums a couple times before), which will kick yer butt. (And yet another example of transcribers occasionally making questionable calls about chord naming - although the note transcriptions are spot on.) Mahavishnu transcriptions

[Pianoman50]

Shortcut!!!!!

 

To play any 13th chord in a hurry,

 

Play a IV chord in right hand and play an octave

of V notes in left hand.

[Postman]

Originally posted by Byrdman:

The major blues scale does not contain the 7 (major or minor) Nor the flat 5. It has the same relation to the minor blues scale that the regular major scale does to the minor (ie, the tonic is a minor third higher)

 

So:

 

C minor blues scale C Eb F Gb G Bb C

Eb major blues scale Eb F Gb G Bb C Eb

(transposing)

C major blues scale C D Eb E G A C.

 

Try it and you will see that the major blues scale really is much more major-like than the minor scale and that the presence of the sixth plays a big part in that.

 

So, indeed, the 6 chord is associated with major scales in blues too.

 

As for which seventh to use in Blues, the minor seven is more conventional. It works well as a passing note on the way down to the sixth too.

You know what? You sent me on a fact finding mission and I discovered that you are indeed correct. I have to admit that I wasn't familiar with the major blues scale (just the minor blues scale which I've known as simply the blues scale), so I spent some playing time this weekend getting to know it. I agree with everything you say. Personally, I have trouble getting it to sound bluesy to my ear. Indeed it sounds very pentatonic to me. Obviously, more playing is in order. I found it worked better over jazz blues changes than, say, texas shuffle tunes. Jazz blues often use maj6 chords, and yes, I'd be tempted to go mixolydian there (or dorian, bending the flat 3 upwards, right?). So, I guess it comes down to what tune you're playing, eh? If it was functioning as a I chord in a non-blues, I'd still go for a maj7.

 

I love talking theory.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by Postman:

Originally posted by Byrdman:

The major blues scale does not contain the 7 (major or minor) Nor the flat 5. It has the same relation to the minor blues scale that the regular major scale does to the minor (ie, the tonic is a minor third higher)

 

So:

 

C minor blues scale C Eb F Gb G Bb C

Eb major blues scale Eb F Gb G Bb C Eb

(transposing)

C major blues scale C D Eb E G A C.

 

Try it and you will see that the major blues scale really is much more major-like than the minor scale and that the presence of the sixth plays a big part in that.

 

So, indeed, the 6 chord is associated with major scales in blues too.

 

As for which seventh to use in Blues, the minor seven is more conventional. It works well as a passing note on the way down to the sixth too.

You know what? You sent me on a fact finding mission and I discovered that you are indeed correct. I have to admit that I wasn't familiar with the major blues scale (just the minor blues scale which I've known as simply the blues scale), so I spent some playing time this weekend getting to know it. I agree with everything you say. Personally, I have trouble getting it to sound bluesy to my ear. Indeed it sounds very pentatonic to me. Obviously, more playing is in order. I found it worked better over jazz blues changes than, say, texas shuffle tunes. Jazz blues often use maj6 chords, and yes, I'd be tempted to go mixolydian there (or dorian, bending the flat 3 upwards, right?). So, I guess it comes down to what tune you're playing, eh? If it was functioning as a I chord in a non-blues, I'd still go for a maj7.

 

I love talking theory.

Its uncommon in Chicago Blues ( if I am mistaken about this, couterexamples would be very much appreciated). Its common in New Orleans blues - Prof Longhair for example. I did not know about it myself until Henry Butler taught us about it a couple of years ago up in Port Townsend.

 

Of course, it is the scale you are using in the bass when you walk up from the I to the IV in the standard blues way.