REVISED B4 vs CX-3 - Clone Wars

[Stephen Fortner]

Tusker, I actually got to try the Nord Electro through decent studio monitors (Mackies) in a pretty quiet room. I thought the Hammond simulation measured up to the CX-3. The Leslie sim was deep, organic, and not too phasey. I thought they did nice work there. But what's the big deal about the sampled electric piano sounds in that thing? That's supposed to be one of its specialties, but I've got Rhodes and Wurli sounds on a floppy for my ancient K-2000 that mop the floor with the Electro.

[burningbusch]

Update.

 

I've been trying out a Voce V5 with Voce Spin II and thought I'd add the results to this thread. I had never heard the Voce stuff previously but had read many glowing reviews. I have to say that I wasn't knocked out.

 

As far as settings on the V5 go, I had overdrive set to zero (didn't much care for it) and leakage to zero (ditto). Keyclick was set to 12:00. When I first tried it, I thought the output of the V5 was overdriving the input of the Spin II as I was getting this consistent distortion. Eventhough I backed off the volume of V5 to 12:00, it still retain the same "distorted" quality so I have to assume this is the normal sound. The Spin has controls for acceleration and speeds. I set them to what I thought were average settings. You will hear that the output of the Spin, though recorded in stereo, has a VERY narrow stereo width. There are no controls over this, that's the way it is. BTW, as the Spin II has no MIDI control over the fast/slow speed, the speed changes were done manually and will not match perfectly against the CX3 and B4.

 

So here is the Voce V5 & Spin II

 

Busch

[Jeebus]

Hey nice playing burningbush. Where can we get the transcription??

 

Honestly, I play piano all the time, but whenever I try to make an organ sound good, it's just not happening. I feel like I need to take organ lessons or something. I just don't know what to play. Piano stuff certainly doesn't work on an organ.

 

I vote the B4 as well.

[b_3guy]

I sold my Hammond XK-2 & I'm in the process of selling my little Leslie 302. I picked up the Roland VK-8 yesterday. I was able to A/B it with the B4. The B4, with the new Tonewheel sets, sounds better than the new VK-8. It has more overtones (better leakage, etc.) & a warmer quality.

[coyote]

It's odd. I am NOT a purist at heart. BUT...

 

Good as the clones may be, the more I hear them the happier I am that I own a genuine tonewheel Hammond.

 

Folks - with diligence and patience you can still find good A100s (and sometimes even B3s & C3s) for under a grand. If you have the cash and the space I seriously recommend getting one.

[Rick K.]

Well, I listened to them both again today. I know that I already voted for the CX3, but I have to admit that the B4 did sound 'warmer' perhaps. The Voce did too. But is the B4 available for us poor guys for stage use without having to have a computer on stage?

 

Rick

[Calumet]

The B-4 by far. I own and gig with the B4. I love it. It is far and away the best fake Hammon out there...and I am a Hammond player who has a B-3 in my living room. I know what the real thing sounds like and the B4 comes closest. I would be embarrassed to use the CX-3 on a gig - I think my VK-7 kicks its ass.

 

Someone mentioned that the B4 Leslie effect ramps up to fast. That takes about 3 seconds to change. Everything on the B4 is sooooo tweakable...it's almost too much flexibility!!

 

Thank you Native Instruments!!

 

Mitch

[Jdub2k1]

I don't have a CX3 but I do have both the B4 and the V5. I threw out the B4's leslie sim and ran both through my Motionsound Pro3t. The Vibrato/Chorus is far superior to the V5. The V5 comes a littl closer to the B4's percussion, but the B4 still wins that category. As far as overall sound, the V5 sounded warmer and did a better job with the highs, mids, and lows of the organ. The V5's drawbar voicings were also more accurate than the B4. If I could have the Vibrato/Chorus and percussion of the B4 on the V5's overall sound, it would be pretty darn close to a B3.

[burningbusch]

TheJesustown,

 

Thanks, but I'm still very much working on my Hammond playing. I'll never be great on the pedals (maybe on a slow ballad). My goal is to get fluent with the left hand walking bass patterns so that they're second nature. Right now I can do them, but they're too haphazard and that screws me up. Once you get the bass lines locked in, the right hand can do anything. But still, when ever I play a recording of one of the jazz B3 greats, it is a VERY humbling experience. There are a lot of guys who play the B3, then there are those who PLAY it.

 

Coyote,

 

I very much agree. I had an epiphany of sorts recently. It goes like this: I figure the life span of the Hammond tonewheel organs is about 100 years. Even though they were built to survive an all out nuclear war, there are limits. Just as significant, the service guys with the decades of knowledge will be gone. And the players. By 2035 most, if not all, of the B3 legends will be gone. If I'm above ground, I'll be over 80; in 40 years, even young pups like LeBlanc will be on the backside of 60. To the Cosmos, 100 years is the blink of an eye. So only a tiny select group of people in the history of mankind will have the opportunity to play the real thing, play the beast.

 

I decide I needed to be part of that group and to stop cloning around. I recently picked up a very nearly mint 1957 C3 and an absolutely mint 145. This is probably why I'm so critical regarding the Voce. The real thing has a depth and warmth that is missing from all of the clones. This isn't subtle. My C3 was modified with an input jack so that I can bring in sounds to the Leslie. Even going through preamp on the Hammond and the tubes on the Leslie, the Voce didn't come all that close to the sound of the real thing. You wouldn't have to be a purist to hear the difference; it would be readily apparent to anyone.

 

Busch.

[Calumet]

Busch,

 

Get the left hand solid with the blues and you'll be surprised how easy playing most standards become.

 

I never thought I could kick left hand bass...but an expert told me to sit on my right hand for a few months and just play bass lines over blues forms. So I did and now there is no jazz tune I can't play with my left hand on auto-pilot, no matter how many changes there are nor how fast.

 

(Please don't read that as me patting myself on the back...It's just to show that kicking the blues is the beginning of everything.)

 

Start with the blues and everything else falls into place!

 

Mitch

[burningbusch]

Mitch, that sounds like good advise. Maybe you know. Is there something that jazz players who walk with the left hand, do with the pedals that's a kind of accent? I've never understood this.

 

Thanks,

 

Busch.

[Calumet]

The majority of the bass line comes from the left hand. The foot is for emphasis and for laying into certain lines.

 

"You can work on kicking the pedals and doing it with just the foot, but if you want it to swing, it's in the left hand." - Joey DeFrancesco

 

Now...bear in mind...Joey CAN kick the bass line with just the pedals and make it swing...but the majority of his line is left hand with the pedal emphasizing the line. Sometimes, he just bounces his foot on one pedal while his left hand walks the whole line. The foot gives the bass line a little "thud".

 

Do you have any Joey D records? I could point out instances where he's kicking a left hand line and you hear him dig in and play the same line with the pedals for a bar or so to really emphasize the line.

 

Mitch

[Jdub2k1]

Burningbusch,

If you get a chance can you or anyone that has access to these three clones and a real B3 turn off the leslie (no need for the Voce) and see which comes closest to the raw B3 sound. I did it with the B4 and Voce and the Voce still sounds a bit warmer. But overall, I rate the B4 1st, the Voce 2nd, and the CX3 3rd. No offence to anyone, but the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the CX3 is "yuck"

 

And yes, the overdrive and leakage on the V5 sucks. Anything past ~2 on the overdrive is ridiculous and anything past ~1 on the leakage is also ridiculous. I use my Pro3t to dial in overdrive anyway. I got the B4 mostly for studio work and the V5 for road work. If I had a decent laptop I would probably use the B4 more.

 

But like someone already said, there isn't anything like a real B3.

[Rick K.]

Well shoot. I was thinking about a CX3, but after reading all these rewiews I'm more confused. First of all, I cannot find a Voce here in Phoenix that I can play, much less the Spin2 that typically accompanies them. I can and have found CX3's, and actually loved them and preferred them over the VK8 putting price aside. I don't like having an amp on stage with me because I have a great in ear monitoring system, and I just hate lugging one around.

 

Rick

[Blues Disciple]

Hey burningbush I'm right there with ya. I hope to go pick-up a 1958 C3 with a 122 Leslie a week from Monday. I was supposed to get it last Friday, but 8 inches of snow here in NC has temporarily grounded me and left me snowbound.

 

I too seriously contemplated a clone, but felt that if I don't get the real thing now, I never will and my clock is ticking too. I think a clone would work great if you are a keyboardist who considers the organ to be just another sound in the overall repetoire. For me, the organ is THE SOUND and the basis for all my Praise and Worship music and my Christian blues stuff. And for a role so important, I personally wouldn't trust it to a clone.

 

Ain't nothing like the real thing!

 

BD

[Blues Disciple]

I wanted to get a B3 about 18 years ago but instead opted for a Bronco that turned out to be a lemon and have regretted it ever since. In fact its only real regret in my life (excepting bad romantic/sexual pursuit decisions--I could've had so much more sex if I knew then what I know now!) I truly feel that if I bought a clone now and didn't get a Hammond that it would become a lifelong regret that would eat away at my soul and my happiness till I died.

 

BD

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by Blues Disciple:

I could've had so much more sex if I knew then what I know now!

By god man, you must share this knowledge! The Jeebus isn't getting enough sex either.

[rod76]

Burning: ive got my Hammond M3 serviced and got new tubes recently and i'm (already) 26 years old

 

I believe there's still hope if you really want

[RudyS]

mmm... i think if you told me that the b4 mp3 was a real hammond i would believe it. I am not good in hearing if it is the real thing.

[burningbusch]

Rick,

 

If you like the CX3, I'd go for it. It's still my overall personal favorite after the B4. I feel that, especially for live playing, how you react to the keyboard and how it inspires you to play your best is at least as important as the authenticity of the sound. If you have more fun playing the CX3 vs. the VK7 that will be reflected in your playing. People are there to hear you wail, not the authenticity of your clone.

 

I think what turns some people off on the CX3 is the aggressive setting of the overdrive on many of the presets. It's as if Jon Lord had the final say on all of the presets, i.e. "sounds good, just need to crank up the distortion." The Jimmy Smith patch for instance has an over drive setting of somewhere around 50. You can turn that down to around 10 and I think it becomes a more authentic sound. To my ear, Korg nailed a lot of the other aspects of the sound. Plus, eventially, version 2.00 will be available with some nice improvements planned. Also, the CX3 is the best controller for the B4 (if that's part of your scheme). I do understand why some people prefer the VK7/8 which can be very seductive with its more mellow/warm tones.

 

The Voce is a fairly one dimensional piece, IMHO. As I stated before, I didn't much care for the sound of the overdrive and leakage. The overdrive is more of a dirt than distortion. That leaves keyclick as the only real variable to the sound. Not much. All the other clones provide numerous parameters for tweaking the sound. It's also quite pricy--$1100 street price for the V5 with Spin II. You still need a controller and you're not going to find any generic controller that's going to feel as nice as the CX3, XK-2 or VK8 for organ playing. If you go the Voce route, I would skip the Spin II and get the Motion Sound PRO-3T. It's only $180 more and well worth it. The best price I could find on the V5 was $699 at 8thstreet.com. The have a good return policy so you can send it back if it doesn't tickle your fancy. Let them know upfront that you might very well be returning it.

 

Busch.

[Rick K.]

Thanks Busch!

 

I really value the opinions of people on this forum. I really value this forum! It's been wonderful! I guess that I'm just trying to maximize my dollar and get the best that I can afford. Once again, I'm back up to having 4 synths and a module. I must be a collector because I got rid of alot of them over the last few years and now I'm accumulating again. I've got my stage setup (2 boards), my home board, and my practice board + module set up in our practice facility. Now I'm looking at getting another one!! I've got G.A.S. bad...

 

Rick

[Erlic]

I never owned a true Hammond B-3, actually I owned and played the BV, which was basically the same unit without the percussion. Obviously the percussion adds a lot.

 

Based on the files I listened to, I believe that the B4 is much more realistic to a hammond than the CX3, although since I don't own either one of them, I would probably lean toward the CX3 only because of the fact that you have on hand facilitation at all times during you playing session.

 

That I think is the main reason I would opt for a hands on type of unit. Either way, both units come close to hitting the mark, but the B4 does a better job at it.

[coyote]

I used to have a CV - I gave it to the guy who helped me pick up my A100. Man did that thing scream!!! If I had the space in my house I'd have kept both organs.

 

Originally posted by Erlic:

I never owned a true Hammond B-3, actually I owned and played the BV, which was basically the same unit without the percussion. Obviously the percussion adds a lot.

 

Based on the files I listened to, I believe that the B4 is much more realistic to a hammond than the CX3, although since I don't own either one of them, I would probably lean toward the CX3 only because of the fact that you have on hand facilitation at all times during you playing session.

 

That I think is the main reason I would opt for a hands on type of unit. Either way, both units come close to hitting the mark, but the B4 does a better job at it.

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by The Jeebus:

Originally posted by Blues Disciple:

I could've had so much more sex if I knew then what I know now!

By god man, you must share this knowledge! The Jeebus isn't getting enough sex either.

Please Boues Disciple!! The Jesus begs you.

[RudyS]

Originally posted by The Jesus:

Originally posted by The Jeebus:

Originally posted by Blues Disciple:

I could've had so much more sex if I knew then what I know now!

By god man, you must share this knowledge! The Jeebus isn't getting enough sex either.

Please Boues Disciple!! The Jesus begs you.

I think there is some one here who desperatly needs sex

[TheMightyTonewheel]

Folks,

 

I've been running a Voce V5 through an APA MP-1 tube preamp, a footswitch, and a 720 Leslie for about a year now, and there is nothing that sounds as close to a real Hammond IMHO. To me, 90% of the classic Hammond sound comes from the Leslie itself (the 770 Leslie is the same as as classic 122 except with a solid state-based amp instead of tube-based). I've had the setup in the studio about a dozen times, even the most discriminating engineers have a very tough time hearing the difference.

 

All of the Hammond clones sound great these days, but without a real Leslie they will all disappoint on some level. The MP-1 preamp adds a crucial tube stage -- has lots of distortion and warmth settings I can use on the fly. Of course, it still doesn't sound QUITE like a Hammond, it's still missing that "x" factor that only Hammond have. And it's not the same as playing a console with two manuals and four drawbar sets, etc. But, even though I'm a purist of sorts, this setup really does the trick.

 

Voce V5 -- $800

Trek II pedal preamp -- $300

ADA MP-1 tube preamp -- $150 (no longer in production)

Leslie 770 -- $?

Volume footpedal -- $60

[Jeebus]

Please Blues Disciple... Jeebus needs your help.

[bearded yeti]

Originally posted by Ohtar:

I think there is some one here who desperatly needs sex

I think you're right.