Korg's next big thing...?

[Togakure99]

Originally posted by Dan South:

The only other synth that comes close is the K2x00 series, and you can't use all of those slots unless you buy the PRAM upgrade.

 

The K2x00 series has 999 Program slots, 999 Setup slots, and the same goes for all other Objects: Keymaps, Effects, Samples. I think the only thing that's different are the Quick Access banks, which (I could be wrong) are limited to 20.

 

You'd fill up your PRAM, even with the expansion, before you'd ever fill up all of those slots. You should never run out of slots on the K2x00 series. With floppies or a harddrive, you can always load and reload any objects at anytime. This is just nuts, huh?

 

Long live K2x00.

[Geosync]

Originally posted by Togakure:

I think the only thing that's different are the Quick Access banks, which (I could be wrong) are limited to 20.

Long live K2x00.

 

75 in the 0's bank and 20 in the other 9 banks.

that's 255 Q/A banks that hold 10 items each. that's

 

2,550 entries in Quick Access,

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Rabid:

 

No. It's not. Especially on Korgs where extended user memory means deleting presents. Granted most presets are not usable but they are good starting points so I hate to remove so many. I can fill a sound bank with lead sounds alone. Then you add 2 banks of pads, special effects, instruments, drums, etc. Some of my sounds are saved multiple times on my keyboards with various control routings and settings. I may want a nice, slow lfo tied to the joystick on one version, and a fast, square wave for growle on the next patch. And with pads, just a tweek of the filter settings or attack can make a huge difference in a song but I don't want to go back to setting up sounds by turning knobs like I did in the old days. I want my sequencer to pull up a patch ready to play as needed for a specific song. There is just soooooo much you can do when programming patches for Korgs, and so little space to save them.

 

Then how on Earth do you work with synths that have only 128 memory slots, like the Roland stuff? At least the Tritons have a floppy drive for saving and loading banks of patches (and many other object types) to an affordable medium (instead of an expensive memory card).

 

Each Triton patch can be configured in four different variations accessible by the buttons above the joystick, so you can essentially store four programs in a single memory slot. Now you're talking about having 1600 different patch variations available. And you can use the Combi's to store 1600 more versions of them (different effects, layers, etc.). If you need 3200 patch variations per performance AND access to all of the (excellent and TOTALLY usable) factory patches, hook up a Triton-Rack for the factory sounds. Put your expansion cards in the Triton-Rack, because it has space for eight cards plus ADDITIONAL RAM for ALL 128 programs from each of those eight cards. That's 1452 available factory patches (and four variations of each patch) on the Triton-Rack in addition to your 3200 customized pad patches on the Triton keyboard.

 

What other non-computer-based instrument provides that many patches at the press of a button? Just another reason why the Triton kicks everybody else's a$$ six ways to Sunday.

 

[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: Dan South ]

[The T Dot]

I'm with Dan South.. Triton was the best isntrument purchase I ever made.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Rabid:

I want my sequencer to pull up a patch ready to play as needed for a specific song.

 

Do you know how to embed a sysex dump at the beginning of a sequence? This pretty much eliminates this problem.

 

Almost every synth I own has the ability to send out an individual program as a sysex dump. Record one of these on separate tracks in your sequence, and then just turn 'em on and off as required. No special technique is required - just arm a track, start the sequencer recording, and initiate the dump from your synth. When you play the sequence back, it will automatically dump the sysex back into the synth - you don't have to do anything special to set the synth up to recieve a dump.

 

These individual program dumps are usually very short, and can occupy a small portion of a blank measure at the beginning of a tune. I sometimes even put them on the same track as the note data that will be playing those programs, so that each track that uses a custom program has a sysex header embedded in it at the beginning. If you are doing this on multiple channels, you'll want to stagger them a bit so that they don't overlap. As they are pretty short, this is usually quite easy to do.

 

As a rule, doing this does NOT overwrite any programs stored in memory - it just fills the synths buffers on the correct channels.

 

You can also do sysex dumps for entire banks - they can also be stored on separate tracks, but these DO overwrite programs. So, what you do is to keep your standard user bank backed up somewhere, then when you call up a sequence, turn the track on that has the sysex dump for the whole bank, let it fill up the synth's user bank, and then disable the track. Problem solved.

 

Try it - you'll like it...

 

dB

[RABid]

I will try the sys dump thingy. Just never started using that because I like to have access to all patches all the time. Creating sounds has been my greatest joy since I used to sit in the floor with my brand new Minimoog and make it sound like a helicopter coming over the mountains. The first thing I do when I get a keyboard or module is start seeing what sounds I can get out of it.

 

My Roland XP5080 has 8 banks split between user memory and presets, 8 banks of preset sounds for the 8 expansion ROM slots, 8 banks more on the memory card for user presets. These are all patches. I am not counting combi's or performances. I almost never use those. My problem with Korg is mostly a problem with Karma and a problem with the way memory and the expansion ROMs work with patches. The Karma has only 7 banks of programs. One for GM, one for Moss, One for each of two expansion cards, plus 3 banks of presets (one bank less than Triton). Expansion ROM's do not come with patches in memory. You load patches from flopy disk into a user bank. When you create a patch on the Karma you have to choose a preset to delete. Roland, Emu and Alesis had patch information on the ROM's. Why did Korg not do this? You could argue that it is better to allow the user to edit any patch and thus, the Korg system is nice for developing your own sounds. The problem is you get no more editable patch locations than you do on any other keyboard. I don't mean to slam your favorite keyboard. If Korg did not sound so good I would not consider this an issue. The Triton is a great sound source and fund to expore. That is why I consider the limited locations for patches such a major flaw with the Triton line, except for Triton Rack.

 

Robert

 

[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: Rabid ]

[Dan South]

Correction: the Triton has 640 writeable program slots and 512 combis, not 400 and 400 as I stated earlier. Sorry for the confusion.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Rabid:

My Roland XP5080 has 8 banks split between user memory and presets, 8 banks of preset sounds for the 8 expansion ROM slots, 8 banks more on the memory card for user presets. These are all patches. I am not counting combi's or performances. I almost never use those. My problem with Korg is mostly a problem with Karma and a problem with the way memory and the expansion ROMs work with patches. The Karma has only 7 banks of programs. One for GM, one for Moss, One for each of two expansion cards, plus 3 banks of presets (one bank less than Triton). Expansion ROM's do not come with patches in memory. You load patches from flopy disk into a user bank. When you create a patch on the Karma you have to choose a preset to delete. Roland, Emu and Alesis had patch information on the ROM's. Why did Korg not do this? You could argue that it is better to allow the user to edit any patch and thus, the Korg system is nice for developing your own sounds. The problem is you get no more editable patch locations than you do on any other keyboard. I don't mean to slam your favorite keyboard. If Korg did not sound so good I would not consider this an issue. The Triton is a great sound source and fund to expore. That is why I consider the limited locations for patches such a major flaw with the Triton line, except for Triton Rack.

 

 

Hey, man, feel free to slam away! In fact, feel free to never, ever use a Triton. That's your prerogative. Don't let me stand in the was of your Korg-free bliss.

 

I've gotta confess that I just don't understand your reasoning. You claim to like the XV-5080 which has memory for only 128 user programs and no patch variation facility. But you reject the Triton, because it has memory for four times that many programs. You claim that you don't like the fact that you have to erase presets to save your own programs, but you have to do EXACTLY THE SAME THING on the XV-5080 - I have one right here, in case you're wondering.

 

You suggested earlier in the thread that factory programs are "useless" - which I dispute, but that's another topic - yet you prefer a synth that has 128 user memories and a lot of presets to one that offers storage for 640 fully customized programs. If you like presets so much, use the Triton's patch variation capability to make three alternate version of each preset. You can switch between variations manually or with a SysEx message. Alternately, take my earlier suggestion and buy a second Triton (a Rack) for access to all of the factory programs and expansion boards if you need to have them handy at all times.

 

You can manage all of your patches via SysEx, as Dave described, or via a librarian program. Out of the box, every Triton comes with a floppy drive will let you swap banks in and out in seconds, even when you're on stage.

 

In addition, you can use the Triton's four assignable knobs (assignable to eight user selectable destinations) to vary programs in real time. Or you program sounds to respond to MIDI control messages. You can vary filters, oscillator mixes, effects, and most other parameters from your sequencer. Using this approach, you may radically cut down your need for individual program memories. I assume that that's what you must be doing on your Roland, because you're sure as shootin' not going to store 600 programs on THAT. Don't get me wrong, I like Rolands, and I own a bunch of them, but for writable program memory, the Tritons are much better.

 

Bash Korgs all you want. There is NO other machine on the market that gives you this much space to store custom programs.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Dan South:

There is NO other machine on the market that gives you this much space to store custom programs.

 

NO other machine?

 

If you buy a 512k SRAM card (any standard Type 1 SRAM card will do - they're pretty cheap), and plug it into one of the slots on any Alesis QS synth, you get an additional 8 banks (128 programs in each bank) of USER programs, and another 8 banks (100 Mixes in each) of USER Mixes (Combis). When added to the internal user memory of the QS, this gives them more double the capacity of the Triton for user programs. Of course, the QS series have two card slots...

 

...and don't even try to tell me that you were only talking about stock units, and expansion boards don't count...

 

dB

[RABid]

Originally posted by Dan South:

You claim to like the XV-5080 which has memory for only 128 user programs and no patch variation facility. But you reject the Triton, because it has memory for four times that many programs.

.. your Roland, because you're sure as shootin' not going to store 600 programs on THAT.

 

Oops. Thanks for pointing out my error. I stated that Roland split 8 banks between user patches and preset patches. A more correct statement would have been 9. As you said, Roland does only have one bank for internal user editable patches plus 8 banks for presets. This single user bank when combined with the smart media card allows 9 banks of 128 editable patches for a total of 1152. Add to that another 1152 preset patches including the bank of 256 for GM2. I have 4 expansion cards in it with space for four more. Three of the cards have 255 patches and the fourth has 256. That is 1021 programs with room for more. So not counting the rhythm sets which have their own patch location in Roland, or the possible patches that would be added by filling the 4 empty expansion slots my Roland XV-5080 has 3325 patches. That is more than my Emu which has 2048 preset patches and 512 user editable patches for a total of 2560. As I said earlier, only the Triton Rack can come close to this.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

...and don't even try to tell me that you were only talking about stock units, and expansion boards don't count...

 

dB

 

Uh, yeah, that's that I meant...out of the box...

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Rabid:

 

Oops. Thanks for pointing out my error. I stated that Roland split 8 banks between user patches and preset patches. A more correct statement would have been 9. As you said, Roland does only have one bank for internal user editable patches plus 8 banks for presets. This single user bank when combined with the smart media card allows 9 banks of 128 editable patches for a total of 1152. Add to that another 1152 preset patches including the bank of 256 for GM2. I have 4 expansion cards in it with space for four more. Three of the cards have 255 patches and the fourth has 256. That is 1021 programs with room for more. So not counting the rhythm sets which have their own patch location in Roland, or the possible patches that would be added by filling the 4 empty expansion slots my Roland XV-5080 has 3325 patches. That is more than my Emu which has 2048 preset patches and 512 user editable patches for a total of 2560. As I said earlier, only the Triton Rack can come close to this.

 

 

Robert, good point about the Smart Media card. I had forgotten that you could access the card patches directly. I hope that the next Korg-o-tron will provide this kind of expandability.

 

BTW: What size card do you use in your XV?

[RABid]

128 meg. I hope to use it for both patches and samples. I just have not aquired the samples I want yet. I am looking for a basic vocal/choir sample set that I can use with the in Akai format that translates well to other formats. I don't have an Akai sampler, but that has the best chance of converting to Roland, Emu, GigaStudio and hopefully soon, Korg or Yamaha. Vocal pads are what I miss most in my setup.

 

The Roland Fantom has the same problem but with different variables. You get more overall patches on the Fantom than with a keyborad virsion of Triton, but only 128 user patches. Why is it that the easier the keyboard is to program, and the better that keyboard sounds, the fewer slots you get? No one should be releasing a "good" keyboard without smart media options. Oh well, it will be interresting to see what comes out this year. I am debating between a 88 note controller, triton rack, or an analog/virtual analog keyboard. I will be looking closely at Korg and Yamaha. If Korg comes out with a Triton type keyboard with included and expanded MOSS capabilities I would trade my Karma in a heartbeat.

 

Does anyone make GOOD software for programming a Triton Rack? Software that recognizes ROM and MOSS expansion and gives access to sample memory?

[Dan South]

Hey Robert! Check out Spectrsonics for vocal samples. I don't think they have released anything in native XV format, but other formats should be compatible.

 

I agree with the need for Smart Media slots on new synths. Keep in mind that the Triton came out in 1998.

[Antonio7]

Yes, this "Spectrosonocs" voices is rather good. I think you are referring to Symphony of voices Dan, and if you are, I can testify that they are superb. Better than Any Keyboard/module I've heard. Roland take a few of these samples and put them on their SR-JV 13 Card. The sound samples (especially the Amen, Chants) are EXACTLY the same. However, for Pads, I read that the JV Card doesn't do so well.

 

The very first CD, and first sample, with *ONE* sound takes up a small 35MB RAM! However, what you pay for in memory, you get paid back by Quality. Sampled from top to bottom, not muffled "AHS" at the Bottom end, and no Chipmunk effect at the top either, what you hear are VERY FAITHFUL reproductions of the real Choir itself (to be honest, it really is like the real thing). As for Compatibility. Well, I have a Yamaha A4000 Sampler, and these disks are Akai format. All the "Main" Changes I have to make are Envelope And Velocity. Only takes a Minute, then I save my Changes to HD. Super. Don't even need to add reverb to these if I don't want, as the Samples were recorded n an Ambient Cathedral (Aylesbury).

 

I think it would be asking a lot to get *LOTS* of sounds like this on sample based keyboards, because you would need Tons of memory for these sounds alone. Samplers are the WTG for sounds like this, and other sounds like Strings (MIROSLAV) I thought I had the best sounding Strings on my keyboard...till I heard these. There are others as well.

 

 

Antonio

[RABid]

How do you like your Yamaha overall Antonio? They are a great deal and I like the idea of easily adding an internal IDE HD. Does it translate most disks well? I bought Bob Clearmountain (spelling?) Drums II for Akai a few years back. That CD does not like Emu, Roland, or GigaSampler. It burned me out on buying Akai format CD's for other samplers. Maybe I just started off badly.

[Antonio7]

Hello Rabid

 

The Yamaha A4000 is very good indeed, and was the same price as the Akai 3000XL when i brought it (you can only got to 32 Megs on that, and it doesn't come with effects either!. The Only CD's I've got, are the ones I mentioned. SOV., and Miroslav Strings. I also have XXLarge Strings, and again, all i have to do is change the Env/Velocity etc. Actually, I add my own effects from the A4000, and make a unique sound from these samples (XXStrings)

 

The Hard Drive i am using is a Maxter IDE (4.2 GIG) - £30!. I have also tried a 10 GIG SEAGATE...once again no probs (8 partitions BTW - as it will take 8 GIG Maximum) However, with the Spliter cable it comes with, you can easily add another HD and make one as slave - just like a PC (exactly the same actually). I Have a Quantum HD as a Slave/Backup. Loading time is so much faster as well (especially after 1.5 Operating system). Anyway Rabid, I will leave you with a message I Saw on the Yamaha A4000 User Group, and it looks promising for Yamaha A4000 owners (and Motif), as the support for CD's will increase I believe. I'm still new to samplers, so still researching myself.

-------------------------------------------

Quote From Yamaha User Group

 

Hello,

 

Today I was visiting Chickensys' website... nothing

special... clicking everywhere for fun... then I

found this page:

 

http://www.chickensys.com/translator/giga/yamaha.html

 

Yamaha to Gigastudio translation. For once I didn't

read "Status: Code being developped, available soon,

very soon, buy Translator now 'cause updates when

Yamaha is supported will be free, etc"... I READ:

"STATUS: BETA TEST"!!

Not that I care about Gigastudio, I don't have it.

But to me that means they really are working on

Yamaha!

 

Don't know what is the deal with website updates

though: Yamaha to wav or aiff translation would be

the easiest I guess and they write "Status: Code

Development"...

 

Unquote.

 

Antonio

 

[ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Antonio7 ]

[RABid]

Thanks for the info. Very interresting. I have GigaStudio so I hope they will make that a two way conversion. I know GigaPiano is not going to fit into the Yamaha but I have a few other samples that would fit.