KORG Z1?

[Goldberg]

Ok, I went to Korg's website looking for info on keyboards and found the Z1...and man, it really caught my eye. But, going to a few online stores I found that they didn't have it listed, or had a message saying they didn't carry it. I have a good idea it was discontinued, but even if it was, was it a good synthesizer? How expensive do you think you could find them for? More important, is if you even can find them at all? Oh yeah, and being a beginner with pretty much zero money to spend, advice on the following would be helpful too: X5D, N364, N5. I'm just a little short on budget, and was wondering if these synths have any realtime knobs or the like...you know.

[sbrock1san.rr.com]

The Z1 was definitely a cool synth but I would assume it was discontinued due to lack of sales. Be wary of the Korg bashers on this site, they wouldn't know a good synth if they played one.

[Rod S]

I remembered being quite impressed with the Z1 at the time. There were a few things that discoraged people at the time. I took a excessive long time to change patches, and had limited polyphony. Supposedly the EP modelling was excellent, but the polyphony was too small for a piano sound. There were other things about it at the time too, but I can't remember, I think mostly OS related.

 

I think a lot of the capabilities of the Z1 are found in the MOSS plug in board for the triton, if I'm not mistaken, so a lot of people went that route.

 

I remembered they did a 'reissue' of it less than a year ago. (Zzounds had it for sale I think). If they had a rackmount model I would have gotten it, I have NO room in my bedroom anymore for another keyboard http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

SOS had a pretty thorough review on it. I think the website is

www.sospubs.co.uk

 

look for articles, and do a search.

[steadyb]

Originally posted by SteveRB:

Be wary of the Korg bashers on this site, they wouldn't know a good synth if they played one.

 

 

Be more wary of Korg stockholders.

 

 

This message has been edited by steadyb on 08-06-2001 at 03:57 PM

[MusicaL]

Originally posted by steadyb:

Be more wary of Korg stockholders.

 

 

This message has been edited by steadyb on 08-06-2001 at 03:57 PM

 

Or Korg Synth Owners

[Goldberg]

Thank you for the help! Does anyone know where you can buy them online, though?

[Witchman]

Try samash.com - I think i saw the Z1 on sale when i was looking there a few days ago.

[Bucktunes]

There's always several on Ebay if you don't mind getting one secondhand. Most of them are barely used and in living room condition, at least if you believe the sellers! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

I remember it was a very cool and innovative synth, but it didn't sell so well for the reasons mentioned above. The good thing about that is that it means you can get one a LOT cheaper than when it was a new model, and it'll be a real bargain if you like the sound of it.

 

Peace all,

Steve

[Goldberg]

Thank you everyone. Look, I've got one more question, that I'm sure you guys will mumble 'idiot newby' too. But, I have to find out. The Z1's got 18 voice polyphony (with expansion, I was reading)...the 1080's got 64 voice polyphony. SO! If you connect the two, can you thus either get 76 voice polyphony, or at least 64 voice? Also, can you use the realtime controllers on an external synth (Z1) to edit the 1080 sounds in realtime?

[Rod S]

Thank you everyone. Look, I've got one more question, that I'm sure you guys will mumble 'idiot newby' too. But, I have to find out. The Z1's got 18 voice polyphony (with expansion, I was reading)...the 1080's got 64 voice polyphony. SO! If you connect the two, can you thus either get 76 voice polyphony, or at least 64 voice?

 

No, at least not in the way you're thinking.

 

Let's say you have your Z1 with an electric piano sound. You have the midi out hooked up to the midi in the 1080, with a string patch sound. You start playing. As soon as you exceed 12 notes on the Z1, you will start notice note stealing or other weird phenomena, but the 1080 will play fine. Hooking anything up to the Z1 is not going to increase the polyphony. Some synths (the korg ms2000) allows you to hook up two IDENTICAL synths to increase the polyphony. The ms2000 uses an odd/even note method I think; others use a spill over method.

 

Also, can you use the realtime controllers on an external synth (Z1) to edit the 1080 sounds in realtime?

 

Probably. It can get a bit involved though. The midi spec calls from something called continuous controllers. Get a good midi book and read up on it. This is how it works.

 

Let's say you can set up a knob on the z1 to transmit controller number 18 (I picked this randomly).. so everytime you turn a knob it will transmit a number between 1-127.... You have to then set up the 1080 to respond to c.c. # 18 to affect the filter cuttoff frequency or another parameter. This way, when you turn the knob, the parameter is adjusted on the 1080.

[Rod S]

Originally posted by Striker1080:

...advice on the following would be helpful too: X5D, N364, N5. I'm just a little short on budget, and was wondering if these synths have any realtime knobs or the like...you know.

 

No, I'm not a korg basher. But I don't like their entry level stuff. Actually, I think it sucks http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Too vanilla, boring. It's been years since korg has made an entry level product that is worthy of consideration IMHO. Their top end stuff, however, is another story. 01W, Trinity, Triton, etc all excellent synths (although I don't care terribly about them)

 

When I bought my alesis qs6, I compared it to the x5 and the xp10. The qs6 blew both away.

 

The Z1 is NOT an entry level synth. It's very difficult to program it and get predictable results. Don't let the fancy aspect lure you. Go for something more basic.

[Goldberg]

Yes, Rod, I realize the Z1 is not entry level, and also that the N/X synths are 'way too easy' to learn, and would be done with it too soon. But, keep in mind that I will probably be using this synth through highschool(which will most likely include band play...?). Even if the Z1 won't do for this, due to minimum polyphony, can you suggest a better choice for the money? Maybe you could tell me some key features of the qs6...I want to do dance/electronic music but will also need a fairly decent range of other sounds. Anyway, what I wanted to say about the Z1 and it's learning curve is that I will be using it for quite a long time, and I am most certainly willing to take time to learn the odds and ends of my machine. Not to mention I found one for sale for 1,100 dollars. To me, that sounds like a bargain. But, I AM looking for a band instrument too, for cheap (over 2,000 is pretty much out of the question-or else I'd buy a Triton). The other thing that I was looking at was the Yamaha CS6X.

[Rod S]

Originally posted by Striker1080:

Not to mention I found one for sale for 1,100 dollars. To me, that sounds like a bargain.

 

Arghh! too much. They were blowing them out for around 900 a few months back.

[The T Dot]

If you don't want to go over 2000 (USD I'm assuming) then try getting ahold of a used Trinity. Even though Triton is out, the Trinity is still a great synth and it should last you a very long time.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Striker1080:

I realize the Z1 is not entry level, and also that the N/X synths are 'way too easy' to learn, and would be done with it too soon.

 

Most synths aren't quite that simple. They're all pretty complicated little pieces of technology. Also, unless your primary reason for buying a synth is to study advanced esoteric methods of synthesis, this might not be the way that you want to be approaching this.

 

I'm guessing that you probably want a machine that sounds great. One that fits your music. One that inspires you to play it, with sounds that compel you to write the type of music that you hear in your head. If this is the case, you may want to stop thinking so much and go play some of these and see what grabs you by your muse, not by your brainpan. Buy the one that makes your ears go wow, no matter what the technology behind it is.

 

I have been playing and programming synths for nearly 30 years, and I love my QS8, which is a basic ROMpler. Is it simple to use? Some of it is, some of it isn't. But the interface doesn't interfere with my music-making, and I just love the sounds on the thing. Think about it - did you ever hear of a guitarist not wanting a guitar because it was really easy to play?

 

If you're totally keen on getting a machine that will challenge the daylights out of you for many years to come, get a Kurzweil VAST synth (K2000, K2500, K2600). There's nothing more powerful, or more deep. It'll keep you busy for many, many moons.

 

BTW - I have a Z1 - it's okay, I guess. Needs better programs, IMO.

 

dB

[Steve44]

BTW - I have a Z1 - it's okay, I guess. Needs better programs, IMO.

 

Yeah, and the ability to switch between patches faster than once every five seconds.

 

 

Striker,

The Z1 is a cool synth, but if it's your first keyboard and you want it to cover lots of bases, I don't think it's the right choice for you. Plus it is definitely discontinued, so the only ones you'd find in a store are probably B-stock ones or really old store stock that have been sitting around forever and they weren't able to sell. Even if you did find one, there's a lot of quirks to it, such as the fact that it takes a long time for it to switch between patches, and that the arpeggiator patterns are really bland.

 

In the price range you quoted, you should check out the Roland XP30, the Yamaha CS6x, and the Alesis QS6.1. While the Yamaha is probably the most powerful of this bunch, the Alesis is probably the easiest to use. But if you really want a great board, you should check out the Yamaha Motif. It may be a few hundred bucks out of this price range, but it's well worth it, offering more features than a Triton for about 800 bucks less than a comparably equiped Triton. It is a superb synthesizer that will last for a long time and is full of useful features like the ability to control external modules with its knobs and faders, as well as controlling the mixer in a computer's sequencer with those same knobs and faders.

 

I hope that helps,

 

Steve

 

p.s. here's a link to a cool Z1 page: http://www.lfo4.com/

[Goldberg]

Thank you everyone, again. I was down at the music store a few days ago staring at all the new synths, and I saw the Trinity there, and remember a few people on an earlier quote (Trinity vs. Triton) saying there wasn't much differences. Hey, what a bargain! But, at a closer look, it seems the Trinity doesn't have any realtime knobs? Did I overlook something? If I did, laugh, tell me, and I'll be quick to buy one of those! However, I do agree, I like the CS6X just fine, and the price is right(sure, the Trinity can still get up there, but oh well). Maybe next time I'll take a look at the Alesis synths.

[Anderton]

I actually bought a Z1, the first keyboard I'd bought in many years. I did so to plug a few holes in my synth options; it's the perfect box for when you realize that nothing else you have will make the sound you want. I have the expanded version with extra voices, which works for me.

 

I don't use it a lot, but when I need it, it's great. It certainly is not a "main" keyboard though, more like if you already have a car, then you can get a sports car for those fun weekend drives.

 

IF you get the OASYS card for your computer, which are being blow out for around $500 or so, you can get many of the Z1-type sounds. But the card has limited polyphony too, and many of the warnings/accolades that apply to the Z1 also apply to the OASYS card.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Anderton:

I don't use it a lot, but when I need it, it's great. It certainly is not a "main" keyboard though, more like if you already have a car, then you can get a sports car for those fun weekend drives.

 

That's actually a really great way of describing it - I use mine very similarly.

 

dB

[Goldberg]

Alright, everyone so far has done a fair job of helping me figure out this isn't the board for me right now. I am pretty decided on the Yamaha CS6X now, but now I have to save up my pennies and wait, because by the time I can even think about buying it, it may have dropped to pretty cheap. But, I have a question about XG, the Yamaha version of GM. It IS compatible with GM, right?

[soapbox]

Well I'm definitely in the minority here, because I love my Z1 and use it a lot! Sure, many of the factory programs leave something to be desired; but with all of the inviting knobs on the board, I find it easy to coax what I'm looking for out of the synth. Its rare for me not to use the Z1 on a song, especially if whats called for is synth stuff.

 

There are indeed many modules that are better if you want string or piano sounds (although the Z1 has some good Wurlitzer sounds), and I often go to my QS8 for those kinds of things. But if Im looking for warm pads, synth bass sounds, etcetera, the Z1 is a good bet!

 

I agree with those who have recommended that you audition a variety of keyboards, if youre only going to own just one. I own a lot of keyboards and modules and therefore the Z1 works well for my needs. Personally, if I could only own one keyboard though, I would probably buy a high-end Kurzweil. I dont own one now because Id rather buy keyboards that excel at one thing and combine a variety of those excellent keyboards to create a great sound. IMO what the high-end Kurzweil stuff excels at is being a great all in one solution: a ROMpler, a synth, a sampler, etc.

 

Of course, a high-end Kurzweil isnt going to be in your price range, but Ill bet a used Kurzweil K2000 is. If you can find one with the sampling option installed, you can have access to a wide variety of sounds through samples. But if youre looking for the instant gratification of tweaking a synth with a lot of knobs, the Z1 is good and so is the Yamaha CS6X.

[The T Dot]

Originally posted by Steve44:

BTW - you should check out the Yamaha Motif. It may be a few hundred bucks out of this price range, but it's well worth it, offering more features than a Triton for about 800 bucks less than a comparably equiped Triton.

 

 

 

The Motif has MORE features than a Triton? Please explain your reasoning.

[soapbox]

I think it's only fair, when discussing the strengths and weaknesses of the Z1, to point out that these pros and cons are part of the inherent qualities of any physically modeled instrument.

 

Yes, if you compare a physically modeled keyboard with a normal keyboard which accesses sampled ROM, the patches will load more slowly in the physically modeled keyboard. I've always presumed that this is because the processor has to "rebuild" the modeled instrument in real time when the patch is changed. At the same time, this is a much quicker process than it takes to load samples into RAM in a traditional (not a streaming) sampler. Also, a modeled instrument is a lot more interactive than are sample-based modules. This is because a sample is a static "snapshot" of the sound while a model is a dynamic creation of sound.

 

Analog-modeled keyboards are far more common than physically modeled keyboards. That's because it's much easier to recreate the sound of an analog synth via modeling than it is to recreate a grand piano, for example, because the piano is a much more complex model. In fact, I have never heard a successfully modeled grand piano. Since the Z1 does both kinds of modeling, it should come as no surprise to read the posts which complain about lack of quality in the patches because many of the physically modeled ones in the Z1 are mediocre. However, I maintain that the Z1 does a great job of analog modeling; and in addition, some of the physical models are very good as well. This is an advantage of the Z1 over a Yamaha CS6X, for example.

 

The Z1 was the state of the art in physically modeling when it came out in 1996. Its 18 notes of polyphony (in the expanded version) were unusually high for that type of instrument. At that time, I thought that the Z1 would be out of date five years in the future (today) and that physical modeling would have advanced dramatically by now. Instead, it seems to have become an abandoned technology. As a result, the Z1 is still virtually the state of the art at what it does.

 

As mentioned by others in posts above, Korg has since created some other options based on the same technology as the Z1. One is the MOSS board for the Triton mentioned by Rod CA. Another is the OASYS PCI card mentioned by Craig Anderton. In the case of the MOSS board, you get six voices (I believe it's six) of Z1 power coupled with the strengths of the Triton. That's a definite plus. The downside of going this way is that, not only do you have fewer voices of physical modeling, but also you lack the tailor-made interface to it that the Z1 keyboard provides.

 

The next option, the OASYS, is actually better than the Z1 in the quality of its sound; and I believe its polyphony is dependent on the complexity of the patch that is modeled rather than always being limited to 18 voices. In addition, the advantages of editing the sound on a computer screen rather than a tiny keyboard display are obvious. However, I should point out at this time that a computer editor designed solely for the Z1 is available for free download from Korg. It's an option few people seem to know of. It can be found at the Korg Prophecy & Korg Synthesizer Z1 pages mentioned by Steve44.

 

Because the OASYS is a PCI card, its integration with computer based DAWs is better than any keyboard. On the other hand, the Z1 isn't tied to a computer. It can be taken to band practice or anywhere there's an amp, speakers, and electricity. And it's a lot easier to grab knobs on the Z1 than it is to use a mouse with the OASYS. However, in fairness to the OASYS, I should point out that it responds to the knobs of external MIDI boxes such as the Phat Boy. But buying a Phat Boy, a computer, and a MIDI keyboard would certainly offset the cost advantage the OASYS has if you don't already own those items.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I felt these issues should be addressed. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

This message has been edited by soapbox on 08-08-2001 at 02:53 PM

[Goldberg]

Thank you, Soap, your comments were appreciated. However, I think now that I will definitely need more polyphony for what I will be doing. It will be used as a band instrument, too, in the future, for which it would be perfect for, but still, I'll be doing a lot of sequencing as well (with a bigger, better motto in mind, I may try my luck at a symphony type song...)-12 voice polyphony? I don't think so...The Yamaha CS6X certainly has it's cons as well, but it seems to suit my needs so far...A dance synth, portable, realtime controls, 64 voice polyphony. My other solution to this was that I upgrade slightly: I buy that Techno Collections expansion card for my faithful 1080, get a CS6R (rack mounted CS6X) and one of those cheapy MIDI controllers...what do you all think?

[Goldberg]

Thank you, Soap, your comments were appreciated. However, I think now that I will definitely need more polyphony for what I will be doing. It will be used as a band instrument, too, in the future, for which it would be perfect for, but still, I'll be doing a lot of sequencing as well (with a bigger, better motto in mind, I may try my luck at a symphony type song...)-12 voice polyphony? I don't think so...The Yamaha CS6X certainly has it's cons as well, but it seems to suit my needs so far...A dance synth, portable, realtime controls, 64 voice polyphony. My other solution to this was that I upgrade slightly: I buy that Techno Collections expansion card for my faithful 1080, get a CS6R (rack mounted CS6X) and one of those cheapy MIDI controllers...what do you all think?

[soapbox]

Yes, while 12-18 voices are fine for live playing (we only have ten fingers after all), that amount is miniscule when it comes to multitimbral sequencing.

 

If you want to start out with a home based computer setup, you might want to look into software based synths. If you have spare PCI slots, both the Korg OASYS and Creamwares Pulsar are great options. If you have a fast computer with a lot of RAM, you may want to try native based software synthesizers such as Reaktor, Pro 52, Retro AS-1, PPG Wave, etc. These are all cheaper than the keyboards weve been discussing.

 

If you want to stick to keyboards or rack mount modules, I also recommend you check out analog modeling offerings from Roland and Novation such as the JP-8000 and Supernova. I personally like the sound of both of these instruments.

 

Best of luck Striker1080,

 

soapbox

[Goldberg]

Thank you again, Soap. I immediantly went to zzsounds.com to check out the JP-8000, and it fits my needs perfectly. I will have to go play it, though, and see if I like the sounds.

[Dr Teeth]

I found a New Z1 in www.samash.com

[Dr Teeth]

I found a New Z1 in www.samash.com

[Goldberg]

Okay! I know that you guys are fed up with my talking about which synthesizer to buy, and that you probably don't want to answer another single one of my inquiries...but, I have to ask anyway about what you guys think of the Yamaha S30. It seems to fit in fine with the same old same old crap (budget included), and I know I will have to go play around with it to see how it sounds...but, generally, who here likes it?