What's your approach to songwriting?

[DailyGrind]

I know this probably belongs in another forum but I've been really impressed with the music I've heard from musicians on this forum so here it goes...

 

Being a guitarist (and fairly new to keyboards), and former metalhead, I find it quite difficult to compose songs now that I've gotten older and my musical tastes have changed. I used to be one of those technical types who would practice scales all day and I would just pick up my guitar and crack out a few rhythms, hoping the rest of my band would fill in the wholes. I focussed more on playing lead than anything else and I'm truly groove impaired when it comes to laying down drum and bass tracks. While I realize I need to just work on this and get over it, I was wondering how those of you who's main focus is instrumental music approach songwriting...

 

Do you build from the bottom up by laying down drum and bass tracks with a loop based sequencer and just layer as you go? Do you start with a melody and try to build around that? Do you mess around with synth patches until you stumble across one that inspires a song?

 

On a tangent, do you use arpeggiators and "rhythm generators" to get an idea going? If so, do you use those as scratch tracks and then play the parts yourself afterwards or do you keep those tracks? Do you consider that cheating?

 

I know I'm asking a lot of questions but I really admire a lot of the work I've heard from this forum and realize that I (as well as others, hopefully) have a lot to learn from you guys and gals...

 

I realize that different genres probably approach songwriting differently (I'd like to compose smooth jazz) but any tips that anyone has to contribute would be greatly appreciated and worth a try http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

This message has been edited by DailyGrind on 07-20-2001 at 07:19 PM

[Steve LeBlanc]

Truth is I don't have an approach to songwriting...but I do almost always start with the melody first.

 

It's always kinda surreal when an idea comes to me because most of the time I feel like I have writers block.

 

Something that inspired a tune recently, I was just playing around with my guitar tuning it to weird notes (Low E down to C, A down to E, with my other strings staying close to normal pitch or going up). I found I was able to kinda play Bass and Guitar at the same time with this tuning and it just inspired me to write a new tune. I still started writing the song with the melody but the drive and inspiration to do it came from a little Rhythm groove.

 

Most of the songs I've written came to me while just singing by myself in the car...it's always a little different though.

 

I've also wrote some songs just by jamming with my brother until ideas started to flow.

[SlopHappy]

My approach to writing?

 

I'll try to answer that as best I can. I never use arps or auto-accomps of any kind in my writing...never ever. They are great to jam with and learn new approaches, but I'm a purist and I have a philosophical problem with using them as writing tools. That's not MY music it's playing! (Unless of course I programmed it) I never use audio loops or grooves either. Never, ever. Some will tell you I'm too restrictive in that policy, but you asked and I'm trying to give you my honest answer. My whole goal in music is to write and record my own creations. Nothing else matters. I feel I cannot accomplish that goal using other people's music. I'm sure this will start another thread war, but speaking frankly there's nothing anyone can say to ever change my mind about this.

 

That said, I would have to admit my feelings about the Karma keyboard is very much a love/hate thing. It is fun, and it's hard to get rid of toys once you've bought them already. But, I'm looking foward to buying more Triton equipment in the future. You won't find me using any GE's from the Karma, and claiming it's my music though.

 

Now that all that's out of the way... I find inspiration from a number of things. I find if the keyboard/sound-source doesn't inspire me, it's worthless. Quite often buying a new keyboard solves the problem. You have to know a few things first though! You have to really know what makes you tick, and what you're really trying to accomplish and sound like. This requires you to be completely honest with yourself, and that's not always as easy as it sounds. Everyone around you may be telling you this XXX music is the thing, and you may have found some of it you indeed do like and can actually write, but your subconscious mind may have other plans and your not listening to it. Deep down you may want to wail on that B3 organ, and you're really ambivelant about piano for instance. Or you may find after 12 years of classical training, for some strange reason, your unhappy even though your making great strides (this happened to me). Once you know what you really want in music, the only thing left to deciding which sound-source is right for you is proper research and product comparison. I find the Korg Triton sound to inspire me after a long (kurzweil) dry spell. That's my reality. For the first time in years I'm being really productive, and it's due to the fact that that Triton sound engine is inspiring me. It's write for the kind of music I want to right! So, I feel equipment CAN be the answer. I do disagree that you need 6 keyboards and 4 racks filled with stuff though. I strongly disagree with that.

 

If your still reading after all that... There are other things. I feel the saying, "Most people don't plan to fail, they fail to plan" is true. You have to have goals and work at them routinely. Playing video games every night for hours is not going to get that song wrote! You can take a break from things for a while, but how much time are you really spending writing (versus maybe even reading this!)?

 

I don't watch much TV or movies. I listen to music all the time, at home, at work, in the car, at the restaraunt, in the elevator, in the dentist chair...everywhere. Quite often taking time off, and really listening and thinking about what it is you're really hearing (there is multiple levels of awareness or knowleadge) can be more inspiring than practicing. Quite often, I'll blow off practice for 2-3 days, and the first time I sit down magic happens. You find yourself in amazement at what your playing. Am I playing this? What is that? Where did that come from? What the hell's going on? I should be out of practive and playing terribly! Subconscious man, that's the answer. You've got to get in tune with your subconscious. Let it out. Stop over analysing, or even thinking. Just let yourself do it. You can do it. Do it.

 

I'll tell you some other crazy things. Guitarists influence my playing generally speaking probably more so than keyboard players. God if I could sound like Joe Satrianni playing "War" then that would be the ultimate for me. Or maybe like Frank Marino of Mahoganey Rush wailing on guitar like no one else could. There are SO many good players, and they're not all keyboardists...

 

Well is that enough? I actually have a lot more to say...this probably is the longest post I've ever made though. Don't get the idea I'm any kind of expert. You asked, and I'm trying to give you some thoughts on stuff I care very deeply about and think about constantly. Thanks for asking. It's been an absolute pleasure.

 

SlopHappy

[Guest]

I write all songs in my head, then do basic tracks on a recorder to test it out. I find it's better to stick with one genre of music. When i get one good song, i try to write a bunch in a similar vein... build off that particular style.

[SlopHappy]

...and I didn't even answer one of your questions! lol

 

I find that in a tune, there is always that special "something." Sometimes it's a melodic line, sometimes it's a rhythm, sometimes it's a particular sound. Somtimes it's a relation of notes, or a symmetry. You know what I mean? It can be a technique of playing. It can even be, God forbid, imitation (what isn't?). It can be a combination of these and/or other things.

 

An old teacher of mine said something related to this that I feel is very important. He said that we all reach plateaus that we stay at for a while, and don't seem to make much progress, although we are progressing slowly. He said at these times you need to concentrate on technique and knowledge. (Technique could mean practicing certain songs and/or phrases that challenge you to improve...anything that helps build your ability to play.)

 

I find that even if I'm not inspired, with knowledge and technique, I don't fully need the inspiration. Often the hardest part to writing is starting. Knowledge will get you started, even if inspiration won't...it's not everything, but it will surprise you how far it can take you.

 

Anyway, just a few more thoughts...

 

SlopHappy

[DailyGrind]

Nine years ago I traded a career in music for a career with computers. The thought was that I'd have more cash to buy more toys but I only ended up with a studio full of gear that I never had a chance to play (I haven't touched any of my gear in 2 years). It's sad to admit but I don't hear music in my head any more, I feel creatively dead. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif So...

 

I think I'll start out with SlopHappy's advice by brushing up on my theory and technique while waiting for inspiration to strike. In the mean time, I look forward to any other tips you might have since I feel like a musical virgin all over again. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif Thanks for the excellent feedback guys, please keep it coming!

[Steve LeBlanc]

Wow Slophappy, your passion for music is inspiring, thanks for sharing it here.

[Bobro]

Originally posted by SlopHappy:

 

An old teacher of mine said something related to this that I feel is very important. He said that we all reach plateaus that we stay at for a while, and don't seem to make much progress, although we are progressing slowly. He said at these times you need to concentrate on technique and knowledge. (Technique could mean practicing certain songs and/or phrases that challenge you to improve...anything that helps build your ability to play.)

 

I find that even if I'm not inspired, with knowledge and technique, I don't fully need the inspiration. Often the hardest part to writing is starting. Knowledge will get you started, even if inspiration won't...it's not everything, but it will surprise you how far it can take you.

 

SlopHappy

 

That's great advice. The technical area I work on when I'm slowing down on writing tunes is mixing/recording, and creating synth patches for stuff that's already played into a midi sequencer and is just hanging out with a piano sound waiting for a unique tone.

 

Writing tunes, I do the "rhythmelodic" thing- pick up a beer at the sausage stand and walk at least an hour a day, kind of scat-singing rhythm-melodies under my breath. Maybe the best thing about the method is that it's works as an editor- if an idea isn't strong enough, I forget it by the time I get home. The longer the walk, the catchier the riff, basically.

 

For years I notated on paper, but now I just play the stuff into a sequencer, then improvise against that. For 6 years I recorded nothing, just notated ideas and went through texts and listening, concentrating on counterpoint from Fux to serialism, a couple of years ago I packed the books away and went back to doing the kind of music I was doing in the late '80s, but with the tools to actually pull it off.

 

The weird thing is the connection between dry exercises and thought-free improvising, beats me why it works but it does. Maybe it's a matter of honing mental muscle/reflexes, the way a boxer exercises with a jump-rope even though he wouldn't use it in the ring, maybe the subconcious mind is cooking up rebellion in the process, maybe it's just a cool trick to engage the logical mind so that's it's not hassling the creative subconcious.

 

Check out this trippy scenario. Every day I roll up my ripe socks, the envy of the French cheesemaking industry, and toss them from across the room into the laundry basket- and miss. Then one day I figured, shit, I know where the basket is, turned my head, shut my eyes, and swish! never miss. I don't know what it means but somehow it seems important.

 

-CB

[mojosaur]

CB......I think it works because the two ideas balance each other out. The ideal us just to play or sing from the sub-conscious by relaxation continually re-inventing your music, whether through rhythmic or melodic or harmonic change (or a combination of the three.) I call this state enlightenment. But this is a temporary state. When you are not in a state of enlightenment, your conscious mind is in control, and you either loop your music over and over again or loop scales, chord progs something you memorized like that SRV lick, etc, some lines you think are commercial, etc. Its called practice, till you can go back to the zone, hopefully with better technique and especially the ear to go with it......hope these concepts work for you. They do for me.

 

Andy

 

 

 

This message has been edited by mojosaur on 07-21-2001 at 10:19 AM

[SlopHappy]

Here's some more ideas, on a technical note:

 

Everybody teaches scales and chords. You need to know the notes of the scale your playing at any given moment right? Chords can be derived from these notes right? (Diatonic ones at the very least) So if your playing in the key of A minor, Cmaj7 is one of the chords using the notes of that scale. There are others too naturally. You may know all this already, but in case you don't, we will have covered it.

 

Ok. Here's the thing: With chords you don't have to play the notes all at once. You can arpeggiate them. (Ya I know this is elementary, but hang with me) So, in addition to scales, you can arpeggiate the chord up and down the keyboard. So for a simple G minor chord, play G with your thumb, Bb with your index finger and D with your ring finger. Now shift your hand up an octave and play the same notes an octave higher. Then play the reverse down: D with your ring finger, Bb with your index finger, and G with your thumb. Move your hand down an octave and repeat. While your doing this you can play "octave bass" notes of G with your left pinky and G an octave higher with your left thumb.

 

Now try the dominant 7th version of the chord, Gm7. All you have to do is add F with your right pinky, and it's a four note arpeggio rather than a three. So, what your accomplishing here is developing a melody strictly from a technical/knowledge perspective. No inspiration was needed. Here's more proof, and the beginning of writing a new song using this method:

 

Play the downbeat with octave bass notes of Ab, and follow them with arpeggiated C, Eb, Ab, and Bb with your right hand (thumb, index, ring, and pinky fingers). Now shift your right hand up an octave and play C-Eb-Ab-Bb sequence up again. Then play the two sequences back down in reverse order, minus repeating the Bb the first sequence down (Ab-Eb-C, then Bb-Ab-Eb-C an octave lower). What your playing is an arpeggiated Ab9 chord. Repeat this up-down arpeggio three more times. Next arpeggiate a Db9 chord in the same manner (Db octave bass left hand, followed with F, Ab, Db, and Eb with your right hand, repeat an octave higher...and then down in reverse order like before). Repeat again, and then back to the Ab9 arpeggio a couple of times...and so on. You could then follow with a Bbm7 (Bb octave bass, with Db-F-Ab-Bb right hand) and back to Ab9, and etc. You could continue in a more Pop influenced style, or maybe a classical style in your choice of chord arpeggio choices. Maybe Gb9...etc, etc, etc...

 

Ok, so maybe this isn't the kind of music you had in mind... But it is a very useful technique for both playing and writing, whatever your style. It can make soloing so much easier, especially when your not that creative at the time.

 

With scales, chords and (especially) arpeggios, these can kick-start your creative juices. Sometimes the difference between technique and magic is a couple of mistakes made accidently while trying to play the "correct" notes!

 

If you know all this, my apologies...otherwise that will be $20 please? (I'm joking ;-)

 

SlopHappy

 

 

...if anyone has any corrections to make, help yourself. It's been late, and I may have made some typos...

[Raymar]

I don't write in songform anymore but when I did I started with the drums first and set a time limit like 8 or 16 bars. Then I'd go for either the bass line or chords. I'd usually split the 8 or 16 bars in two, and the second half of the segment would be a slight responce to the first half usually ending up on a different chord. With that platform set up I would improvise a melody over it. I'd build up a tune with completed segments and I'd also put those segments on a cassette and listen to it alot for a few months and get real familiar with the ideas. I'd start to notice that ideas written months apart would fit together. Then I'd re-record the music parts that I thought would fit together onto another cassette in a sequence, and then maybe play around with different sequences of the parts until it was just right. Then I'd either find the MIDI sequences of those parts and import them in place, then redo and flesh out the drums/percussion. Or if I was feeling particularlly ambitious I'd reperform the whole enchilada. You can get some really interestingly contrasting ideas this way with ideas that hold your interest over time.

[Blues Disciple]

For years my predominant sequence for writing involved coming up with a "catch-phrase" in my head then letting the words flow until they create a basic "storyline" or theme---then the rest of the words, melody, chorus etc. would follow. Then I would sit down at the piano and sing the words and the melody until a chord progression comes out to fit them.

 

Recently though I've written a few songs in reverse order: I'll sit down an the piano and "tinker" until a melody that really intrigues me develops. Sometimes I'll let it rest for a few days then will come back to the piano, play the melody, develop the chords and bass sequences, and then will try to develop the words and song parts around the music. This if definitely harder for me to do.

 

The key element is to let the ideas (whichever sequence I follow) to "stew around in my head for a couple of days or weeks. If when I go back to it and remember the words or melody (or sing it constantly to myself), I figure I've got a keeper. If I lose it, then I figure it wasn't worth keeping. And you always have to go back to the keepers even to refine and improve them.

 

Just my two cents.

 

BD

[Guest]

Blue Disciple,

My method is very similar.

 

DailyGrind,

If you desire it will come back. I've taken years off of even thinking about writing a song. Then i decide i want to do it again and it comes back.

[Llarion]

Well, DailyGrind, you've actually asked about songrwiting approach AND recording approach in the same question... Since I'm a Smooth Jazz guy, and you have an interest in this area, I'll try to addres it too, but guys like SlopHappy have given a wealth of WONDERFUL advice already...

 

WRITING:

I write backwards I think. My thought process centers around chords, so the chord progression usually comes first for me. I'm lucky to be a drummer as well as playing other instruments, so once the chordal rhythm is happening in my head, the drums will naturally follow. Once I have that much I can start recording. We'll come back to the writing process after these messages... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

RECORDING:

I always write the drum chart first. Whether I'm playing real drums or composing in the drum computer doesn't matter. I lay down the drums first, then a base keyboard comping track, then the bass guitar, then rhythm guitar. I'm arranging as I go here, or if I heard the whole thing in my head, I just try to match that thought sonically. (A lot of times I can't, because my head is WAY ahead of my hands from a technique perspective). Once I hzve a fully fleshed-out backup arrangement, then melodic elements will start to come to me. Usually, it's melodic rhythm that comes first, and I'll solo over the changes using the rhythmc metaphor in my head and see if anything concrete sticks it's head out. I'm a crappy soloist, so this is the very frustrating part, if a melody did not come to my head right at first.

 

Once I have the melody in hand, I'll drop that part in the recording. Then come strings, other embellishing keyboard parts, and extra percussion. Last come solos. My music is fairly structured, I don't take nearly the risks like the brilliant Steve LeBlanc does, though I wish I had the chops to do so. I work within my limited skill framework, and milk every last inch out of what little chops I do have, and make up for it with a lot of production polish.

 

BACK TO WRITING:

Sometimes, the whole thing comes to me at once, all I have to do is write it down. That's rare, and it's been a long time since that happened. Most times, I'm building it like I preciously mentioned.

 

SlopHappy's advice on what to do in the times when inspiration is not immediately there is one I'm taking to heart. I've been in a compositional rut, so what I'm doing in the interim is using this period to re-record my older material. It keeps me fresh, it keeps my mind in the compositional mindset, and it helps further hone my arranging skill.

 

Does that help?

 

------------------

Cheers!

 

Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor

www.mp3.com/llarion

Smooth Jazz

 

This message has been edited by Llarion on 07-22-2001 at 12:28 PM

[dansouth]

Originally posted by DailyGrind:

I think I'll start out with SlopHappy's advice by brushing up on my theory and technique while waiting for inspiration to strike.

 

Working on theory and technique is fine, and it will get your mind going in the right direction. But "waiting for inspiration to strike" is like waiting for a beautiful woman to come knocking at your door.

 

It's far better to romance your muse. Think back to times when you had an abundance of ideas. How did you get into that creative space? What situations make you creative - low stress, high stress, peace and quiet, working with other musicians, being organized, living in chaos, etc? Only you know what's right for you, but you need to learn to put yourself into that creative space as often and as reliably as possible. Don't wait for her to come knocking.

[dansouth]

There have been exceptions, but most of the time I start with a complete idea for at least one piece of the song. It might be the refrain/chorus. It might be the intro and first verse. Regardless, some section of the song will be playing in my mind, as though I'd heard it on the radio earlier that day.

 

I build a MIDI-only arrangement to support that idea. This takes anywhere from a week to two or three months, depending on (a) how much time I spend on it, and (b) how many lucky breaks I get along the way. If it sounds forced or "not right" in any way, I'll leave it for a while and come back to it weeks or months later. Things usually go better the second (or third) time around.

 

When I get a full arrangement going in MIDI, I listen to the playback and improvise lyrics. This sounds like an undisciplined approach, but I've found time and time again that my improvised lyrics are far superior to the ones that I carefully write in a quiet room. Why ask why? It works, so I just go with it.

 

Next comes tracking. Sometimes I'll have to put tracking on hold for a while and woodshed on a section. Eventually, I throw it all together and mix it until it sounds about right. Much of the song will have been invented during the arrangement phase - the quality of the arrangement can range from "good enough to get the point across" to "what a pleasant surprise!" - but the section of the song that I had in mind in the outset sounds very close to my initial inspiration.

[DailyGrind]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Working on theory and technique is fine, and it will get your mind going in the right direction. But "waiting for inspiration to strike" is like waiting for a beautiful woman to come knocking at your door.

 

It's far better to romance your muse. Think back to times when you had an abundance of ideas. How did you get into that creative space? What situations make you creative - low stress, high stress, peace and quiet, working with other musicians, being organized, living in chaos, etc? Only you know what's right for you, but you need to learn to put yourself into that creative space as often and as reliably as possible. Don't wait for her to come knocking.

 

I hear ya Dan, but that solution would currently pose a bit of a problem for me:

 

At the most musically creative point in my life I had relatively no stress compared to now, I sold guitars/effects for a living so I was always playing and ran into tons of people to jam with, I would occasionally "loosen up" with a bit of pot and/or alcohol and I was single.

 

In comparison, now I'm a senior software engineer at a startup in a high visibility position (ie lot's of responsibility), the only person I know of who has similar musical tastes that I could play with is as busy as I am so it's hard to coordinate jam sessions, I don't consume anything stronger than spicy food or caffeine and I'm married and have a beautiful four week old baby girl.

 

I wouldn't trade places for anything in the world right now and I think all the wonderful advice I've received will help kick start my creative juices again. I'm going to start by making a commitment to play an hour a day and you never know, maybe my current state of sleep deprivation will stimulate some good ideas. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif If not, hopefully the XV-5080 and Motif 8 I have on order will... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Thanks again everyone!

[SlopHappy]

...and I'm not through yet.

 

In addition to arpeggiating a chord up and down the keyboard, you can arp one chord up the keyboard (Gbm), and then a different one down (F). Or, you can alternate different chords on the way up, and down (Fm,Cm,Fm,Cm, etc). All of these chords would not necessarily be in the root positions. The complexity of the notes is up to you. Try all kinds of chords, even partial chords or scales. Play a chord arp up, and a scale down...or vice versa. Mix them up. Play 3-note triplets, 4-note whatevers, quintuplets, you name it. Stagger the chords up, playing a different inversion of the chord each time. When choosing fingerings, pick chord inversions for each chord change that doesn't require as much shifting of the hands (less work).

 

Meanwhile, your left hand could be playing octave bass, or a chord(s), or the same arp an octave(s) lower. Or you could arp the chord with your left hand, and improvise a melody or lead line with your right...or arp chords/notes with your right hand and play a bass line with your left. You could arp different chords and harmonize in different hands (Fm in one, Gm in the other, seperated by an octave of course!). You could arp inward with both hands (outside in)...or, you could arp outward, or from the inside with both hands. You could arp up and down with your right hand, and just upward repeats with your left. Etc, etc, etc... Let one harmonized cluster lead to others. You could just write a series of notes and not think of chord structure strictly speaking.

 

While these methods may seem somewhat mechanical, they are practical. At least I find them to be so...and no inspiration was needed. Obviously these methods have their limits, but what doesn't? The point is you can do a lot with just basic knowledge. If your trying to write a Samba, how are you going to do it with out knowing how to construct samba rhythms? Or how to re-create an authentic african rhythm without knowing what a djembe is?

 

You guys finding any of this stuff useful?

 

SlopHappy

[dansouth]

Originally posted by DailyGrind:

In comparison, now I'm a senior software engineer at a startup in a high visibility position (ie lot's of responsibility), the only person I know of who has similar musical tastes that I could play with is as busy as I am so it's hard to coordinate jam sessions, I don't consume anything stronger than spicy food or caffeine and I'm married and have a beautiful four week old baby girl.

 

You're job is similar to mine. That shouldn't be an impediment. A newborn, on the other hand, is going to require a lot of time. On the other hand, I wrote some interesting stuff when my son was a baby, including the piece that I submitted for Dave's compliation CD. I should think that the emotions you're feeling right now might be very inspiring.

[mojosaur]

I take melody I already know ftom the sixties, cut it in pieces, marry it to a piece of melody from another tune, change the rhythm a bit, find some catchy words, derive a few chords from the melody for harmony, write a counter melody, marry that with a B part and there you go. I'm Sheryl Crow http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

All kidding aside Slop you must have gone to Berkley to come up with that......actually, knowing that the sixth chord of a major scale is always a minor seventh chord, which shares two notes with the tonic chord is insightful.....but you have to hear it to understand what it means, ie it only means something if you can express it as music.

[d-kay]

Originally posted by Bobro:

Check out this trippy scenario. Every day I roll up my ripe socks, the envy of the French cheesemaking industry, and toss them from across the room into the laundry basket- and miss. Then one day I figured, shit, I know where the basket is, turned my head, shut my eyes, and swish! never miss. I don't know what it means but somehow it seems important.

 

-CB

 

 

(BTW This ---^ sounds like a piece of Quentin Tarantino dialogue http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif.)

 

Well, I normally do composing the "normal" way.

 

Way no 1:

----------

1.drums

2.bass

3.melody

 

But the piece written lasts mostly just 20 sec. and then it gets boring. So what to do with a 20 sec. soundbite that sounds good but there is no way of making a variation of it to last 4 min?. The funny part is that coming up with the idea of the 20 sec. soundbite took perhaps 30 min to 1hr. But creating anything extra takes xxx hrs.

 

After making the soundbite it gets really boring. Searching through synth-patches to find that extra sound that I need to complete the sound-scape, or to make a variation of the theme.

 

And if I somewhere find a variation that fits the 20 sec. soundbite then there is the problem with the transition between the two. This also takes xxx hrs.

 

I have just a very few songs that I am pleased with that fits these descriptions. . That's why I try to do it differently.

 

way no 2:

------------

1. play around until I feel the inspiration for a melody. Quickly record it (without the use of metronome) in it's whole (with chorus and everything as it should be).

 

2. go backwards trying to fit the song into bars (finding the right tempo etc (this is VERY time-consuming)).

 

3. play the drums completely freely without use of patterns or programming.

(if I use patterns and loop I'll loose the feel of how&when to use fills)

 

4. Now record chords/bass-line which goes quite automatically because of the chords-progressions are alread built-in in the melody.

 

And there you have it!. 2 completely different ways of composing. If you have problems with creating 20 sec soundbites, then I strongly sugggest the latter way.

 

/d-kay

 

P.S

 

I'm very poor at playing without a drum-rythm so step no 2 takes a very long time. Cubase has a "timestretch"-function to compress parts so I use that a lot, but it doesn't always do the trick because I have to cut a whole song into chorus and theme and still keep the silences in between chorus and theme (because these are the fills and transitions) and I tend to destroy the fills/transitions when splitting the parts.

[SlopHappy]

No Berkley for me mojosaur...I wish I could have. I appreciate the kind words though. It's just continued study for me.

 

I find the subject of composition to be my favorite topic when discussing music. Everybody (including me) seems to get caught up in gear lust and technical specs...everywhere I look on the Internet. Sometimes I really have to wonder why? I would much rather know how to write. I think you can discuss these ideas without giving away your/my treasured creations. And I/we need specific information, not generalities. Sometimes I have to wonder if the people that know most of this already don't want the cat getting out of the bag so to speak. God forbid everyone else knowing how easy this really is! They might be as, or more succesfull at this than I am, and I've just got way too much self-worth tied up into this to give all that away! And besides, they need to pay their dues just like I/we did.

 

How's that for shaking the proverbial tree? But, really, it's an honest challenge. (I'm enjoying this by the way...I'm kind of ornery :-) Come on guys... What defines a waltz? Why not parallel fifths? Why do rock players drop the 3rd's? What's the difference between a 9th and a sus2 chord? What's a "jazz blues" scale? What's a good criteria for selecting chord substitutions? How does the philosophy of entropy apply to music and musicianship? Is there really such a thing as dissonance?

 

Hello? Is there anybody out there? It seems like no one wants to talk about music...

 

 

SlopHappy

[DailyGrind]

Originally posted by SlopHappy:

...and I'm not through yet.

 

In addition to arpeggiating a chord up and down the keyboard, you can arp one chord up the keyboard (Gbm), and then a different one down (F). Or, you can alternate different chords on the way up, and down (Fm,Cm,Fm,Cm, etc). All of these chords would not necessarily be in the root positions. The complexity of the notes is up to you.

 

Oh boy, reminds me if when I first wanted to learn sweep picking on the guitar! Cool at first, annoying as hell once everyone else was doing it.

 

Try all kinds of chords, even partial chords or scales. Play a chord arp up, and a scale down...or vice versa. Mix them up. Play 3-note triplets, 4-note whatevers, quintuplets, you name it. Stagger the chords up, playing a different inversion of the chord each time. When choosing fingerings, pick chord inversions for each chord change that doesn't require as much shifting of the hands (less work).

 

Yeah, I finally learned how to mix it up like you said from a cool jazz/fusion cat who used to teach in the guitar shop where I worked. Then it got really cool.

 

I just spent an hour and fifteen minutes practicing chords/scales on the keyboard and fifteen minutes noodling on my guitar. I think my brain is hard-wired for guitar since I felt more productive/creative on that. I have so much to learn about playing synths but I may get out my old guitar-to-midi controller and use it as a crutch for now...

[dansouth]

Originally posted by SlopHappy:

I find the subject of composition to be my favorite topic when discussing music. Everybody (including me) seems to get caught up in gear lust and technical specs...everywhere I look on the Internet. Sometimes I really have to wonder why? I would much rather know how to write.

 

Good point! Maybe this is why there's not Composers magazine on the newsstand. Pity.

 

Maybe we need to push MP for a composers' forum. A songwriting forum has been discussed, but nothing ever came of it...

[Senator]

i am of the opinion that songwriting is a kind of refined art. Meaning that it takes time learning how to honestly sit with any emotion in your head, or shit going on, and transform that into a relevant, relatable artwork.

Once that's been understood the process is not important. If you are creatively directioned insightfully enough, it's everything you can do to get it all out. The only thing left to do is sort the outburst.

It's like needing to write an essay. It's much easier if you just write, in no particular order, everything that you think is relevant for that essay then order it in text. You already know where you're going.

 

Most important tip... never add frills. If you are adding words or music because you think it maybe should have more, STOP.

Always refine, less is more. Try to keep your point as succinct as possible. That's how people think most successfully. This applies to words and music.

 

------------------

Ed