Attn Berklee Grads/Ear training experts

[KidCharlemagne]

Is anyone familiar with an ear training course created by Matt Glaser for Homespun, a champeen fiddler now at Berklee? it's available on line for a reasonable price, and states boldly that if i stick with it, i will be able to repeat a a sixteen bar passage on one hearing. (assuming chops, i guess.)

 

comments, alternatives, perspectives from my learned compatriots here?

 

This message has been edited by KidCharlemagne on 05-11-2001 at 12:54 PM

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Geez. Don't know what to tell you. I'm immediately distrustful of anything that claims instant gratification. But you never know...it may be cool.

 

And, BTW, I spent a year at Berklee (all I could afford), and taught college level musicianship/ear training for a couple of years, so I guess I know something about the subject.

 

- Jeff

[KidCharlemagne]

Jeff, sorry, i misled. it promises no such thing unless the user works his butt off. i'm not convinced i can, but for a fistful of dollars and the possibility i might, i want to give it a try. looking for perspectives on the quality here or in other similar programs, and whether i should be following this line of endeavor).

 

( i never did solfege when i was enrolled for a king's ransom, because i thought practicing was more important. now, i'm thinking, maybe i can improve basic skills with a disciplined and tenacious program of CD based ear training executed 20 -30 minutes a day -perhaps even in the car-, in addition to practicing, etc. open question.)

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by KidCharlemagne:

Jeff, sorry, i misled. it promises no such thing unless the user works his butt off. i'm not convinced i can, but for a fistful of dollars and the possibility i might, i want to give it a try.

 

Cool, that's the right attitude. The classic dillemma of self-improvement is that nothing worthwhile is easy to accomplish. And ear training takes quite a bit of discipline and regimine.

 

( i never did solfege when i was enrolled for a king's ransom, because i thought practicing was more important. now, i'm thinking, maybe i can improve basic skills with a disciplined and tenacious program of CD based ear training executed 20 -30 minutes a day -perhaps even in the car-, in addition to practicing, etc. open question.)

 

There are so many exercises for this. I used to sing license plate intervals in solfege while driving in my car. Or try doing the vocla lines of pop songs in solfege...it's kind of silly and makes you acutely aware of how little compositional skill goes into writing most of these.

 

Perhaps having all the ways of doing this put together in one source will be good for you if you stick with it. As I said before, I am only suspect of programs that guarantee results in a certain period of time. These can be applied to music, speed reading, weight loss and so on.

 

- Jeff

[Steve LeBlanc]

I don't know this guy or his program but ANY program that gets you working on hearing intervals better is worth the effort...just don't spend too much money http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif. You might find a book for $20 that will give you all the tools you need...but it's often easier to motivate yourself when you have a new program with specific plans and materials.

 

I know, I'm not much help...just make sure you do work on eartraining...it's Mucho Important!

[KidCharlemagne]

thanks. i'm gonna go ahead and order it. it's only $40, and i know that glaser is a monster in fiddler circles. as to the payoff, i'll write back about it next spring http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif with an update. cheers.

[dansouth]

Yo, Kid! Before you blow your money - not to say it's not a good product - just sit down with a piano or a guitar and play some major and minor thirds. Can you hear the difference? Now try a third and a perfect fourth (e.g. C up to F). Then a perfect fifth (e.g. C up to G). Work on these until you can recognize each interval reliably. Have a friend test you from time to time. Then work on other intervals. Ear training is the simplest thing in the world. It just takes some time and some effort.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Well Dan, I finally really disagree with you http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif...

 

Eartraining goes way beyond recognizing simple intervals IMO...it's fairly easy for people to hear them on their own but when you add more notes (chord clusters or even open voicings with all the extensions - 9,11,13) hearing them and where they're leading are more difficult without lots of familiarity.

 

I'm proud to say I can look at the score for a 60 piece orchestra and REALLY hear the entire thing in my head without prior knowledge of the song. Not everyone will want to go this far but ear training is not necessarily simple.

 

Lots of people who can recognize intervals well still have problems telling the sound of a Circle of 5ths progression from a Circle of 4ths...this stuff is essential to know I think.

 

Ear training can be simple but certainly not for everyone.

[KidCharlemagne]

but i take it steve, (and thanks for your helpful thoughts) that it is an essential and fundamental component of musicianship, no? so, it is for those of us who want to become more consummate at our craft. yes?

[Steve LeBlanc]

it is an essential and fundamental component of musicianship, no? so, it is for those of us who want to become more consummate at our craft.

 

Absolutely I agree with this...it's amazing to me that some don't http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

Well Dan, I finally really disagree with you http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif...

 

Eartraining goes way beyond recognizing simple intervals IMO...it's fairly easy for people to hear them on their own but when you add more notes (chord clusters or even open voicings with all the extensions - 9,11,13) hearing them and where they're leading are more difficult without lots of familiarity.

 

I'm proud to say I can look at the score for a 60 piece orchestra and REALLY hear the entire thing in my head without prior knowledge of the song. Not everyone will want to go this far but ear training is not necessarily simple.

 

Lots of people who can recognize intervals well still have problems telling the sound of a Circle of 5ths progression from a Circle of 4ths...this stuff is essential to know I think.

 

Ear training can be simple but certainly not for everyone.

 

Agreed on all of the above. But would you not agree that intervals are a logical place to start? How can you hope to recognize Ab7 (#5) (b9) if you can't distinguish the difference between a major and a minor seventh interval, for example? Fundamentals first.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Fundamentals first.

 

Oh Yeah...Always and Continually (You have to go back to fundamentals regardless of how far you progress.).

 

Just look at Basketball (sorry I'm all geared up for tonights playoff game http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif)...

 

Shaq and Kobe have skills most players dream about but they couldn't be champs until a coaching staff they respected came in to force them to relearn the basics...I think this is true in music too.

[Laurie Z.]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

 

Ear training can be simple but certainly not for everyone.

 

 

It SHOULD be! I could get on a soapbox bigtime about this (and someday I will), but I absolutely believe that ear training is an essential part of music instruction and musicianship. Which sense is more musical...your hearing or your sight? It astounds me that many people who consider themselves professional musicians cannot play a melody by ear or even play their pieces without the music.

 

Don't get me started on this....

 

BTW, KidC, if Matt's course helps you to do something this important that you haven't been able to learn without it, I'm all for it.

 

lz

www.mp3.com/lauriez

[Steve LeBlanc]

Absolutely Laurie....I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I need to work on my communication skills...

 

I Said

Ear training can be simple but certainly not for everyone

 

What I meant is "Eartraining isn't simple for everyone"...see http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif?

 

Some people have to really work at it...I remember back in school some people went through great pains trying to get it...I hope (and actually believe) Matt Glaser has come up with a system that will be good for those who have a natural ability and those who don't.

 

Either way, with dedication anyone can get it. AND SHOULD http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Laurie Z.]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

Absolutely Laurie....I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I need to work on my communication skills...

 

I Said

What I meant is "Eartraining isn't simple for everyone"...see http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif?

 

Some people have to really work at it...I remember back in school some people went through great pains trying to get it...I hope (and actually believe) Matt Glaser has come up with a system that will be good for those who have a natural ability and those who don't.

 

Either way, with dedication anyone can get it. AND SHOULD http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

 

Whew! Thanks, Steve - I feel much better now.

 

Kid - Dan's suggestions are great. Interval training is the place to start. Once you can recognize the relationship between intervals in any scale and can hum, then play back the melody of a song, you're halfway there. I've got a bit of an advantage with perfect pitch, but I truly believe that anyone can do this with repetition. What burns me is that all music teachers do not teach this to their students!

 

Once you've got that down, start on triads (major/minor first) and it will really start to make sense. More complex voicings are next. It's one of those things that once you get it, the lightbulb shines and you wonder how you missed it all these years. I've seen it happen so many times, and it's a wonderful transformation.

 

The main thing is, as Steve said, dedication to the goal and persistence.

 

And maybe a video or two.

 

:-)

 

lz

[dansouth]

Originally posted by lauriez@lauriez.com:

Kid - Dan's suggestions are great. Interval training is the place to start. Once you can recognize the relationship between intervals in any scale and can hum, then play back the melody of a song, you're halfway there. I've got a bit of an advantage with perfect pitch, but I truly believe that anyone can do this with repetition. What burns me is that all music teachers do not teach this to their students!

 

Once you've got that down, start on triads (major/minor first) and it will really start to make sense. More complex voicings are next.

 

And as soon as you can recognize some of the more familiar intervals and chords, I suggest you practice transcribing songs from CD's or tapes. Start with something simple, like the melody or the bass line. Then try to figure out the chord structure. Write down what you think is going on, and then play it back on a piano or a guitar for a reality check. This is an absolutely essential step in ear training.

 

When you're ready, try to tackle the voicings of individual instruments. Horn parts and piano chords are great for this. When you can recognize chord progressions and instrument voicings, and when you can transcribe complicated solos, you're really cooking.

[Laurie Z.]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

And as soon as you can recognize some of the more familiar intervals and chords, I suggest you practice transcribing songs from CD's or tapes. Start with something simple, like the melody or the bass line. Then try to figure out the chord structure. Write down what you think is going on, and then play it back on a piano or a guitar for a reality check. This is an absolutely essential step in ear training.

 

When you're ready, try to tackle the voicings of individual instruments. Horn parts and piano chords are great for this. When you can recognize chord progressions and instrument voicings, and when you can transcribe complicated solos, you're really cooking.

 

Exactly, Dan. There you go, Kid C. - a master ear training class!

 

Now how do we bop The Piano Teachers of America on the head so they teach this to all their students?

 

I've been doing this *all* my life, and not a single one of my teachers ever taught it to me or even encouraged this - I have no idea why. But the best teacher was my five years on stage at Disneyland's Tomorrowland Terrace, having to learn the top tunes each week and add them quickly and accurately - quite an education in discipline.

 

The gig where I was called in to replace a keyboard player last minute for a 6 week gig in Tahoe and had to learn 72 songs and my new keyboard (ummm - DX7) in ONE week was quite an education, too. Methinks necessity is the mother of education! :-)

 

lz

[Steve44]

Hey - I like this thread.. especially since everybody's basically in agreement. As to dansouth's original post I've always found that I'm basically unable to improve my hearing skills by myself at a piano. I'm just too intimately connected with the feeling of the notes in my hands to be able to sit and listen to them. I also have perfect pitch which can sometimes be really helpful and other times really annoying, especially when dealing with renaissance and baroque keyboard instruments.

 

I think the next step for my ears is going to be to finally go through the Hindemith theory book. Singing an interval above the top pitch of a chord that has nothing to do with that interval - that I can do by myself at the piano. Oh, and I guess I should go through the Golden Ears series that I bought for over a hundred bucks three years back.. Even though I dropped my recording dreams, those could be some good skills..

[amiri]

If I may add my opinion here...

 

Experience with students usually tells me that the only thing that will keep their motivation going is the NEED to discover the music they like. So I encourage it, with the easiest way possible. I make them transcribe things they like, and correct them in class. I first guide them to the main melody, then the bass line, and last in line - but maybe of prime importance - the harmony. When all three are transcribed, I shift their attention to the individual details of the piece they chose, like the orchestration, individual parts, whatever.

 

Although people might think that starting of with a trascription is hard, it is NOT! It is very easy for people who have heard a song or instrumental piece a billion times, and simply want to learn it someday.

 

So my advice: find a person with an ear that you trust, and start taking trascriptions of your most favorite piece to him/her, in a frequent basis. You will discover everything that way, and all intervals, chords and rhythms will come to you. The first time it might be all wrong, but from then and on things will gradually improve, untill one day you can transcribe quite about anything, easily. One of the goals of ear training is the ability to trascribe anything with ease, so why not just do it until you can really do it? It has worked with me and all my students.

[dansouth]

amiri - Sage advice. I started by transcribing parts of songs I liked. It made sense of the ideas in the music theory text that I was working through. Agree that kids - like the rest of us - learn best when they work on stuff that they like.

 

Laurie - My guess is that teachers discourage ear training and playing by ear because they want to force the kids to learn notation. To a degree, this may be necessary, because learning notation can be difficult. But the steadfast bias against playing by ear does a huge disservice to the student in the long run.

 

Music is something to be heard and felt. Black dots on a piece of paper are only a shorthand notation that enables us to communicate and store musical ideas. Learning notation without a deeper understanding of music, including recognition of chords and intervals, is like learning karate from a comic book. I'm willing to bet that kids would hate their piano lessons a lot less and stick with music as a life hobby a lot more often if their piano teachers would follow amiri's enlightened approach.

[amiri]

Thanks for the kind words man! Very appreciated.

 

Anyway, I wanted to say that I teach piano, and I have made a few of my students actually transcribe whole cadenzas of Concertos that they like - which differed from the written original. Some pianists change the cadenzas, to make them either more virtuosic, or suit themselves better. Anyway, I have had students who transcribed the Cadenzas with ease, just because they LOVED them!

 

One of my students could actually transcribe a whole orchestra! Again, he loved the piece, and had heard it a million times. When he transcribed it, we corrected it based on the score - which was very hard to find, that's why he bothered to transcribe it! - and it was like 95% correct! The catch is that when we started, he couldn't trascribe a note - or so he THOUGHT, as the future told us.

 

Conclusion: be patient, find somebody you trust, and immerse yourself in the beauty of music. It can NEVER harm you, it will only make you a better musician. In the longrun, Music is the art of sound, and is here to serve our body, mind and soul through the EAR, so we must give our ear some credit, and do that in a pleasurable way too. It can be done - I think...

[Steve44]

transcriptions.. I dread them but they are going to be a very important step for me over the next few years. I mostly do free improvisation instead of classical composition but I want to get the latter up to the same kind of skills as in my improvisation. I've transcribed part of two or three pieces of mine and one whole piece - each of which were about four minutes. The main piece I transcribed was one of the simplest pieces and yet it took me over two weeks of summertime, so probably at least sixty hours of work. As much as I felt I grew in the process.. the idea of doing it again for any amount of my pieces doesn't really make me happy, even the ones that I've listened to hundreds of times. Alas.. if I only I had had a disklavier.

[dansouth]

Steve,

 

Why don't you try playing a MIDI controller into Logic, which has brilliant scoring features. If you can play in time to a click, it will score as you play. If the tempo is not regular, you can remap the tempo later, and you'll still get a high quality printout of every blasted note.

[amiri]

Good advice. Also, Finale 2001 has a built-in microphone transcriber, so if you cannot have a MIDI interface, it can hear audio - although it is not even a fraction of as efficient as the MIDI scorer of the same program.

[Steve44]

No, no no! I don't improvise nearly the same way, nor do I manage to get any inspiration in the sound or experience of playing an electronic piano. It may sound ridiculous, but I just can't let myself do it. Even on my PC88 I can't stand improvising. That board has to go soon, (maybe I need an upright/built in speakers model like a DG8) but there's little doubt in my mind that I need a midi piano of some kind.

 

Oh, and if I were to put the file into any sequencer, it would be Freestyle, since it has the Sensetempo feature. I don't know if Digital Performer has it too, but as far as I can tell only Freestyle can dynamically adjust its tempo in relation to what you play.. remember the hammer smashing the metronome from the back of keyboard magazine a few years ago... I can't do free improvisation to a click, so this is important, along with some easy way of putting together changing time signatures.

 

Oy, now that I think about it, even once I have the midi file it won't be much fun.. If I'm not using Freestyle, I'd have to sit there and create a click track for the program to sync to, and then overlay time signatures and hope the program doesn't then reformat all the click data or stretch the midi data to fit into the new time signatures, and then maybe after all that I'd have something that I could look at without scratching my head too much. In fact, now that I think about it, I'd probably just use the midi file for pitch information and easy scrolling, but write the notes manually into a notation program instead of trying to reformat the midi file.

 

Thanks for the tip, though.. I'll be getting deep into Logic this summer (once I upgrade from version 3.0 LOL) and will probably try it sooner or later.. but I'm still lusting after the disklavier.

 

Oh and I think Finale's audio midi-feature is monophonic, same as those in Logic and Cubase.

[KidCharlemagne]

what a great thread this turned out to be! thanks Laurie, Dan, Steve, Amiri and Jeff for your thoughts. i am expecting the Glaser stuff today (i've been tracking its 2,000 mile trip across the country on UPS web site since Monday-it's at this moment less than 2 miles from my house either in a warehouse or a brown van-pretty cool). i'll let yas know.

 

Amiri, you sound like a great teacher. I think the emphasis on notation is part of the problem, although i think kids should be exposed to notation along the same lines as the written word. early and often, and with a clear connection to the spoken or sung, as it were. but that's the job of a parent and requires a very musically literate household. I also think the problem is time. anything that takes up more than 5 minutes in a lesson is really at teh expense of other things that take up the 30 minute lesson. if kids get 45 minutes, all the better, but many don't. in any case, i am impressed with your ability to get it in and make it rewarding.

 

I picked the Glaser because i thought it would improve my facility with picking up new tunes and licks in an idiom that i'm spending more and more of my musical energy in, ie., rock, pop, blues etc. also always looking for that Holy Grail of feeling no limits on my abilities and grooving in the music with a an audience and a song.

 

but Steve and Dan's little colloquy raise an interesting question? is there a benefit to the skill in notating what you hear? or is the real goal connecting the ears to the fingers? Why notate at all if you can do it into MIDI and stream your fingers' efforts right onto the lines and spaces of the page. Is there some cognitive step in transcribing that when developed improves your musical acuity?

 

I make two observations, but no conclusion: I spent a number of hours in a couple of evenings trying to transcribe the famous George Martin harpsichord solo in "In My Life". It's a little two part invention that lasts 8 bars and is bitchy and idiomatic but not really difficult. but for me it was. transcribing it made me take it note by note, and order the thing so i could keep track of it and practice it (the left hand is what makes it wonderful). I suppose if i did it more often, i would need to rely on getting it on paper less, but i don't know.

 

The second observation is with respect to interval training etc. I was thinking of the Marshall Tucker song "Can't You See" the other night. i think our band could kick the shit out of it, and i love the riffs and licks. Conjuring the opening, i play it out. and i see, the first three notes of the flute opening are a simple C major triad. I played it without hesitation or thought, but seeing it made me realize what the notes were. The point is, my fingers play intervals my ear tells them, without first saying "that's a major triad, that's a flatted seventh." Similarly, i move to the IV chord without thinking or analyzing, and then notice where i am. When i'm listening away from the keyboard, i never think, that's a move to the V or whatever. On the other hand, my ears aren't as reliable for more unusuals melodic or harmonic intervals or chord progressions. So, Matt Glaser and I are gonna fix that. i'm hoping for results in six weeks and, if i see progress, hope to do the whole thing in nine-ten months, at 20 minutes a day at or away from the keyboard. plus, i will continue to play along with tunes and solos as my interests lead me to. (Billy Powell, Chuck Leavall, Bruce Hornsby, Michael McDonald, Keith Jarret's Koln Concert, and of course, Steely Dan, are high on a long list). As Amiri says, you'll do what your interests want you to do.

 

gotta go. I think UPS is ringing my doorbell.

[Steve LeBlanc]

One of the goals of ear training is the ability to trascribe anything with ease, so why not just do it until you can really do it?

 

While I agree this is a noble goal and even an important one...to me it's the least important part of ear training. The goal in my experience is to be able to hear the relationships between melody and harmony. Transcription is great but certainly not necessary.

 

A melody tells you more about the piece you're playing than most people are able to hear...listening to ti do in the context of a song and automatically knowing the chord options you have is the goal.

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 05-17-2001 at 01:51 PM

[KidCharlemagne]

Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc:

 

A melody tells you more about the piece you're playing than most people are able to hear...listening to ti do in the context of a song and automatically knowing the chord options you have is the goal.

 

 

Now there is an intelligent answer. it's also facility between the ear and chops, no? hearing and being able to repeat parts not the lead. getting rhythms in the pocket tight. overall fluency.

[Steve LeBlanc]

hearing and being able to repeat parts not the lead. getting rhythms in the pocket tight. overall fluency.

 

Yep.

 

Also I've found the ability to sing what you play as you play it helps a lot in coming up with cool ideas. (a la George Benson but not for show like he did sometimes http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif). I say this because the more scales and exercises you know, the more your body forces you to play them instead of what you create in your head. How many times have you been annoyed by a player who just repeats scales and arpeggios all the time? argh!

 

 

This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 05-17-2001 at 02:14 PM

[amiri]

Again, thanks for all the kind words. As always, very appreciated. I don't see myself as a teacher, though. I am trying to get my students to become independent. I want them not to need any teacher from a point and on. I want them to trust themselves, their ears, brains, hearts and hands.

 

The value of the transcription begins and ends on one factor and one factor only: memory. If one has the miraculous memory of people like Mozart, Art Tatum, or even a friend of mine that has the ability to play all Xenakis's piano works in a single concert, plus their remarkable ear, you don't need to transcribe one note. I mean, Art Tatum couldn't read music! Why? Because he was blind! On the other hand, Errol Garner was not blind, but he had all the afforementioned abilities, so he never learned any music theory. There was no music theory for him - everything was simply musical practice. He knew music in a way only he understood - and of course others with his gifts.

 

The bottom line is - if you are a genius, both memorywise and ear-wise, the ear-training you will probably need is minimal - although knowing the names of things, in other words, knowing the theory, probably will not do any damage. All the aforementioned examples show that. On the other hand, for the rest of us that have an inclination in music and a decent ear but cannot remember everything in a two-hour record from only one hearing, we need to store the music somewhere so that we can remember it. Here comes the transcription.

 

There is also one more value to the transcription: The fact that you can pass it on to others to learn. It is very important as well, in my opinion.

 

Now, the skills that one has to, eventually, work on, are usually:

 

1) Memory. This is very important, no matter what kind of music you play.

 

2) Understanding the musical environment at play around and with us. Very important ability for people in ensemble music, be it classical or jazz.

 

3) Anticipation of the next few bars of music. Very important, especially for improvisation, where it takes the form of prophecising. You have to communicate with what will follow, either from the band, or from your own hands, and help shape it correctly.

 

4) Most important: the timing! Groove, groove, groove. Everything has to groove in its own setting. Any kind of music needs a very good understanding of time. This is maybe the most essential thing in music: The placement of sound. One person whom I cannot remember right now (very important jazz musician, but I cannot remember who!), in an interview about another great musician, whom I, again, do not remember, said: What I learned from him was when NOT to play. One of the most important things in music, any kind of music, notated or improvised. The sense of space and correct timing is the most crucial in music, at least in my opinion.

 

That is the value of immersing oneself in real, good music: you learn most of the above first hand. And if your memory is not phenomenal, the transcription helps, everystep of the way, in all factors, except maybe improvising your own things. That's when what you already really have, comes into the picture...