Okay, So Who's Got Sonar?

[Master Zap]

Craig: Clarify for me, have you not been using Cakewalk before?

 

Coz the fact you ONLY need the pencil to draw, move, stretch e.t.c. notes is one of the BEST things in cakewalk, and one of the things that I LOATHE in cubase and logic (that incessant tool switch)... in cake you only EVER switch tools if you need to move MULTIPLE notes... then you use the arrow... otherwise, it's all pencil. Great. Luv it.

 

/Z

[Dylan]

I can see both trains of thought. In a perfect world, software would get smaller in size and run more efficently with newer versions, but this usually isn't the case with todays "bloatware". A well written app should still be able to function well with a Celeron 300A @ 450MHz, IMHO, but I wouldn't expect to be able to take advantage of features like input monitoring and low latency operation. On the other hand, it's a bit unfair to expect a new program with as many features as Sonar to work perfectly out of the box with your run of the mill PC, and unlike other Pro Audio builds, Sonar really needs a wicked fast PC to run efficently. The days of running Cakewalk products on 200MHz CPU's is now over I'm afraid, so either continue to run Pro Audio on your current machine or consider an upgrade to a 1GHZ + setup if you want to run Sonar without too many problems. BTW, the Sonar 1.02 update is now available at ftp://ftp.cakewalk.com/pub/Patches/SONAR/

 

-Dylan

[Master Zap]

Finally got SONAR!

 

Several "Gotcha's". I have a multi-out soundcard... but since SONAR now has a bus concept (which I hadnt really found at first) what you set on the TRACK level is not actually the physical out... its the BUS. And it defaults to 3 busses apparently... so IMAGINE my confusion when only 3 of my 5 possible output pairs wanted to ever show up.

 

When I found that out things was better.

 

However, I found some curiousness. I had this file where I wanted to output some sung mono vocals into the left output of audio out 2.... well.... to my AMAZEMENT... I could NOT PAN the mono vocal hard left. NOTHING happened. Nada zippo. Apparently, the input was set to something which caused PANNING to stop working. Changing the INPUT assignment to the track caused PAN to start working. Hmm. Threw me off for quite a while.

 

But...darn... the joy of just being able to drop-in the odd drumloop is blissful indeed!!

 

/Z

[Steak Knife]

I just added the Sonar patch 1.02V. I still cant use overwrite in automation? Overwrite in automation does not even show up, am i missing something or do i have to wait for patch 1.09? Any ideas?

[Anderton]

<< Craig: Clarify for me, have you not been using Cakewalk before?

Coz the fact you ONLY need the pencil to draw, move, stretch e.t.c. notes is one of the BEST things in cakewalk >>

 

I've used Cakewalk a lot, but almost 99% for digital audio and/or audio for video work, not for MIDI. I use Cubase mostly for MIDI, but ever since Acid came out I haven't done a lot of MIDI work http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ...when I remembered about the pencil, it was one of those Homer Simpson "doh!" moments.

[vintagevibe]

Go to the Cakewalk site and read the list of bugs fixed in this 2nd patch.

http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/SONAR/patches.html

 

Read the list carfully. These are not system specific bugs. Theres are probems with the core Sonar code. This product was released before it should have been. I paid $200.00 to be a beta tester.

[RecreationalThinker]

I have a curious problem with SonarXL: In PA9, I had most of my songs set up so that the VS1680 was the master. All I had to do was start PA9 and, after it synched to the VS1680, I could play my sequenced material while I recorded into the VS1680. Now that I have imported all my files into XL, the computer doesn't synch to the recorder, even though I repeatedly select SMPTE/MTC as the clock source in the Options tab. When I start PA9, it just starts right up with no communication to the VS1680. By trial and error, I found that I can press start on the VS1680 and get a dialog box in PA9 asking me if I want to synch to SMPTE/MTC. However, I can't record into the VS1680 under this scenario. I had to revert to PA9 for synched recording.

 

I am at work and don't have my serial number handy, so I will have to wait until I get home to e-mail Cakewalk with this question. In the meantime...any suggestions?

[Cymbals]

Send them the e-mail anyway - they can look it up. I've done it b4, and they've replied without me stating the serial.

[Master Zap]

HAHAHA.

 

I work for one of the largest software developers in the world, and I can tell you that ANY product, the first release is closer to beta than one likes. It's because of those pesky users. We have QA departments twice the size of our development department. We have alpha testers and beta testers who run the software through hoops and hoops with real world data in real projects.

 

Still, when R day comes, the RELEASE day, and the software goes out in gazillion copies across the world, the element of scale causes a TON of bugs to be found.

 

Thats just the fact of todays software complexity and the high demand and small margins available.

 

I think you are unjustly attacking Cakewalk for SONAR. Yes it had a few bugs. So? It hasn't CRASHED for me ONCE. NOT ONCE. Works like a CHARM.

 

 

Also, be advised that low-latency settings via WDM eats a TON more CPU than hi-latency settings and running via MME. Think about it, what is more efficient, calling a routine 44 times a second and let it process 1000 samples at a time, or calling a routine 1000 times per second only letting it process 44 samples at the time? The latter generates much more overhead, and cache misses, and whatnot, but you NEED to do it that way to get low latency!!

 

/Z

[Anderton]

I've installed the 1.0.2 patch and things are working very smoothly. Sonar is really panning out well for me, even with MME. I guess having a Q Performance Systems computer with an overclocked Celeron purring along at 850 MHz doesn't hurt...neither does the 256 MB of RAM...

 

One interesting thing: I've been running Waldorf's Attack using VST-DX, and was pleasantly surprised that the sync-delay-to-tempo feature works like a champ. I presume this means that pure DXi instruments can do this as well, as long as the capability is built in to the instrument.

[Dylan]

Also, be advised that low-latency settings via WDM eats a TON more CPU than hi-latency settings and running via MME. Think about it, what is more efficient, calling a routine 44 times a second and let it process 1000 samples at a time, or calling a routine 1000 times per second only letting it process 44 samples at the time? The latter generates much more overhead, and cache misses, and whatnot, but you NEED to do it that way to get low latency!!

 

Actually, WDM is supposed to be more efficient than MME since it's a true kernel driver and audio apps can bypass Windows and talk directly to the driver. But as were now seeing, WDM isn't really what we'd all hope it would be. To be honest, ASIO is still the only reliable low latency driver (even though ASIO really isn't a true driver) available for PC's at the moment. I was doing low latency (below 10 ms) recording back on the days of using a 300MHz AMD K6 CPU several years ago. But with Sonar, the processor comes into affect with regards latency, which is taking a step backwards, IMO. Not that ASIO is perfect by any means, but at least you don't need a super computer to get low latency operation. When it comes down to it, I could care less about low latency when using Cakewalk. Cakewalk hasn't ever offered it before, and Pro Audio has worked fine for thousands of people for several years now. I hate to say this, but if Cakewalk had simply supported ASIO then it would of made it a lot easier for most of the end users, let alone hardware manufactures.

 

-Dylan

[Anderton]

>>I still cant use overwrite in automation? Overwrite in automation does not even show up, am i missing something or do i have to wait for patch 1.09? Any ideas? <<

 

You've got questions, we've got answers...

 

Yes, it is strange that the option was grayed out in 1.0, and now has been removed altogether. I checked with Cakewalk, and you are not hallucinating, the only automation record option is touch. And even though a punch window shows up in the automation toolbar, it too does nothing. Apparently the punch feature will be brought back at some unspecified point.

 

But it's easy to overwrite when you're in touch mode. Just play back the automation until you want it to change, then start moving the fader (or whatever parameter) when you want to mix. Any new data will overwrite the old data.

 

One bug: the red outline only shows up on the track pane sliders, not on the console view.

[Steak Knife]

Thanks Craig for your reply. I thought that i might of missed something on the automation overwrite/autopunch, not showing up in the new patch 1.02

Have you noticed that automating the Aux returns work about half the time?

Seems very random when it will work. No problem with the Aux Sends just the Returns.

[D.Triny]

Originally posted by Dylan Walters:

I hate to say this, but if Cakewalk had simply supported ASIO then it would of made it a lot easier for most of the end users, let alone hardware manufactures.

 

Actually much of the work for low latency has to occur in the application itself. PA9 + ASIO wouldn't have meant automatic "low latency". It's very easy to confuse driver performance with that of the app. As I've posted elsewhere I'm getting slightly better performance on a PIII 550 using M-Audio WDM/SONAR than M-Audio ASIO/Cubase, *but* I'm also getting slightly better performance with Soundscape MME/SONAR than Soundscape WDM/SONAR.

 

WDM/KS removes significant driver interface barriers from achieving low latency at high cpu loads but the host app has to do it's part as well, just because the driver is operating in kernel mode doesn't mean that all appropriate portions of the host app is operating in kernel mode, and there are performance penalties that exist when switching from user to kernel mode. That is the one of the ways that GigaStudio achieves it's legendary performance (by doing everything in kernel mode) but this sacrifies DX compatibility.

 

So I anticipate that as SONAR and other WDM enabled apps mature the engineers will have more opportunities to leverage the KS interface.

 

But we are in the middle of a significant learning curve among all parties: users, driver developers and host app developers, but I believe there's enough real world experience to assert that a WDM driver model approach (an approach that accomodates ASIO, EASI, GSIF, Win9x, Win2k, & WinXP) Is the best complete solution from the perspective of driver developers. As a matter of fact Steinberg recently mentioned that they were getting the best performance from DSP Factory by using the Win2k WDM driver. Once the WDM infrastructure is in place in the industry(and it's just about there) more engineering energy can be focused on the respective audio engines to make the whole model worth the effort for all users.

 

-david abraham

[vintagevibe]

David Abraham Fenton wrote:

But we are in the middle of a significant learning curve among all parties: users, driver developers and host app developers, but I believe there's enough real world experience to assert that a WDM driver model approach (an approach that accomodates ASIO, EASI, GSIF, Win9x, Win2k, & WinXP) Is the best complete solution from the perspective of driver developers.

 

In other words were all beta testers. This is why we must constantly troubleshoot instead of making music. This wont change with our current paradigm. It will only get worse. Id be interested in your response to my post in the thread How Do U Feel About Being an Unpaid Beta Tester?

[GY]

Originally posted by Alndln@hotmail.com:

Iv'e discovered that Sonar adjusts it's sample buffers according to the card selected as your main card in multimedia even if it's not chosen in Sonar at all.In other words if you have a Soundblaster for general pourpose and a Delta for your main audio recording for example example,the audio buffers will be set for your SB if it's chosen as your main card in multimedia.If you don't beleive me just look.Work around??Choose your main card as your main card in multimedia.I can't beleive no one has brought this up yet,even in the news groups.

 

You are correct!

 

I've been fucking around for 5 days trying to get Sonar to work with MOTU 2408/PCI-324 with problems. Sonar wants to see only my internal sound card unless it's disabled. Even after running that Wave Profiler bullshit.

 

Plus.. under Options>Audio>Driver Profiles, if you select your main sound card and save that setting, and restart Sonar, it reverts back to the internal sound card or game port.

 

How does one get a call through to Cakewalk support anyway??? It's either busy or no answer....

 

I say that anyone who claims that they are having no problems with Sonar has not done any extensive audio and MIDI recording with it.

 

 

 

This message has been edited by GY on 06-11-2001 at 08:28 PM

[Anderton]

>>I say that anyone who claims that they are having no problems with Sonar has not done any extensive audio and MIDI recording with it. <<

 

Well, I've been doing an average of a couple hours every day for over a month, so I think that's pretty extensive. I believe the reason for my lack of trouble is 1) using MME drivers under Windows 98SE, and 2) installing patch 1.02.

[GY]

Originally posted by Anderton:

>>I say that anyone who claims that they are having no problems with Sonar has not done any extensive audio and MIDI recording with it. <<

 

Well, I've been doing an average of a couple hours every day for over a month, so I think that's pretty extensive. I believe the reason for my lack of trouble is 1) using MME drivers under Windows 98SE, and 2) installing patch 1.02.

 

Been there, done that....

[Anderton]

VST instrument alert: last night I was working in Sonar and started having problems with the DXi instruments (like they wouldn't make any sounds). To make a long story short, the problem was due to running NI's B4, a VST instrument, with VST-DX. I finally got the presence of mind to read the README for VST-DX, which mentioned that for the B4 and Pro-52, you have to check "Enable fixed buffers" in VST-DX's Properties menu. I did that, and everything worked again...hopefully this alert may prevent people from spending hours tracking down something with a simple solution.

 

FYI VST instruments I've tested that work fine with Sonar:

 

Neon

Vb-1

Pro-52

B4

Attack

Battery

 

I'm going to check out the Model E and PPG later today.

[GY]

This response from Cakewalk support seems to correctly address my current problem:

 

"The computer's internal sound card has WDM drivers (oddly enough, most low end cards do), so when SONAR sees that card it goes into WDM mode. This causes the MOTU not to be seen, as there aren't any WDM drivers for it installed. If and when you install WDM drivers for the MOTU, you'll be able to uncheck that MME box and use the MOTU".

 

The MOTU is useable in MME, just mucho latency. The effective latency @ 44.1KHz/stereo shows 69msec. Is this why the input meters are not in sync with the audio while recording? They lag about 1/2 sec. My internal cheapo sound card shows 10msec latency and less meter lag.

 

WANTED: Windows 98se WDM drivers for MOTU 2408/PCI-324!

[Anderton]

<>

 

Forgive me for the obvious question, but have you fooled around the buffer size and number parameters? The time I spent experimenting with various settings really helped me tweak the latency down.

[GY]

<>

 

Yes, Craig I have. 69msec was the lowest I could get without dropouts. I'm reading whenever I have extra time about DAW problems. It seems there are a lot of them. I'm not surprized considering all of the cards, OS, software, combinations. WDM drivers do seem like the key.

 

Sorry if you've seen this before, but there is a bunch of good info here:

 

http://www.rme-audio.de/english/techinfo/lola/lola.htm

http://www.rme-audio.de/english/techinfo/lola/lomo.htm

[D.Triny]

Originally posted by GY:

Is this why the input meters are not in sync with the audio while recording? They lag about 1/2 sec. My internal cheapo sound card shows 10msec latency and less meter lag.

 

yes this is a change from PA9, in SONAR meters are affected by your effective latency...good observation.

 

Have MOTU mentioned anything about supporting Win98SE?

 

-david abraham