miroslav Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 OK...just trying to see what you drummers prefer. For recording/mic placement...where do like to cut the hole on your kicks resonant head? Dead center...off-axis top-left/right of center...off-axis bottom...etc. And...how small/large do you cut it? I would think no more than a 4"-5" diameter, otherwise the head's resonance die, in which you might as well not bother with having a head on the front... ...but I'd like to hear it from you experts. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted May 27, 2003 Share Posted May 27, 2003 I prefer to cut a hole on someone else's bass drum head. Good enough for Bonham, good enough for me. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted May 27, 2003 Author Share Posted May 27, 2003 So, for recording puposes...where/how do you mic the kick then...if you have no hole in the head to get the mic a little "inside" the drum in order to capture some of the attack? Do you then mic on the batter side...or still on the resonant side even thoguh there is no hole in that head? I would prefer not to cut a hole either...but I would also like to have the mic somewhat "inside" the kick. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 When I have used a front head with a hole, I've always preferred a 4" hole off-center, at about four o'clock as you face the drum. And NO muffling, if you have the right head combination, which for me is a Powerstroke III batter head and a Remo muffle ring on the front head. Between the underlay ring on the PSIII and the Remo muffle, the stray overtones are eliminated and you get pure WHOMP. As for miking, I like the mic just barely inside the front head. "I had to have something, and it wasn't there. I couldn't go down the street and buy it, so I built it." Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 miroslav: I do not use a head at all. I have a powerstroke ensemble of heads. I also use the DW "pillow" in the drum. I get more compliments from sound engineers when they take my word and mic from outside the drum. I have had one incident when the engineer in a live setting double miked the bassdrum ... one on the front of the head and one at the back next to the beater. He then mixed the signal at the board. (it was a large venue ... and this was the only way to get the umph he was looking for. The best kick I ever had was a 22" Gretsch bass drum with the MAY EA internal D12 mike installed on the inside. Man what a cannon! Just my thoughts. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeq Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 not dead center Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwarf Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Originally posted by djarrett: miroslav: I do not use a head at all. Do you mean "hole" rather than "head"? -- Rob I have the mind of a criminal genius.....I keep it in the freezer next to mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted May 28, 2003 Author Share Posted May 28, 2003 It would seem odd to mic the kick resonant side...if all the other drums are batter side...? That's why I thought of using a hole, which would allow me to get a little inside the drum, and focus attack from the batter head...without having to try and put a mic somewhere near the pedal...just not enough room there. A lot will depend on the other individual drum kit mics...and overheads. If I can get enough of the ambient kick attack from the other mics...then maybe the resonant side on the kick, without a hole, might work out. But I guess...it's like anything else in the studio..."try it and see how it sounds"...except that once I cut a hole, it's a done deal! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djarrett Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Originally posted by Dwarf: Originally posted by djarrett: miroslav: I do not use a head at all. Do you mean "hole" rather than "head"? -- RobYES, I MEANT HOLE ... NOT HEAD. I think my brain was in the freezer next to your mother! DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof.Sound Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by miroslav: It would seem odd to mic the kick resonant side...if all the other drums are batter side...? That's why I thought of using a hole, which would allow me to get a little inside the drum, and focus attack from the batter head...without having to try and put a mic somewhere near the pedal...just not enough room there. A lot will depend on the other individual drum kit mics...and overheads. If I can get enough of the ambient kick attack from the other mics...then maybe the resonant side on the kick, without a hole, might work out. But I guess...it's like anything else in the studio..."try it and see how it sounds"...except that once I cut a hole, it's a done deal! Well, actually you need to realize that a large part of the depth of the kick drum does come from the resonant head. The reason you can't get a definative statement on where or how to do it is because it depends upon the sound you're after vs what you might want vs what you're getting? I don't care for the sound of a mic placed deep inside the drum because it lacks the deep low end tone if aimed at the batter head from the inside and placed near the head. That said, there are many times thats an appropriate sound. I prefer either the 2 head sound with 2 mics, or one mic just about even with the 4.5" hole aimed at the batter impact point, yet he mic outside the drum. Other guys will tell you they hate that. A big advantage of the 2 mic approach is you can mix your sound by blending the mics in the mix. I suggest you maybe read this site as it has some graphic illustrations about mic technique. And then finally, lets not forget the use of dynamic processing and proper EQ. Author and new site of the As of August 2004 - New Home of the Drum Tuning Bible v3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Both on my studio kit and our drummer's kit, we have a hole around 5" in diameter, offset from the center. Mine's at about 2:00, but it doesn't really matter so long as it's not dead center. You can put the kick mic into the hole to get more of the attack, but don't aim it straight at the batter head - point it at an angle toward the side of the shell. And do experiment with the placement - even moving it an inch can make a big difference in the sound. In addition to the mic inside the kick, when possible I like to use a large diaphragm mic a few feet distant from the kick. Move it around to taste for phase coherency and to get the desired sound - closer in for a tighter kick, farther away for a "bigger" kick/more room sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 Originally posted by P.Sound: Well, actually you need to realize that a large part of the depth of the kick drum does come from the resonant head. The reason you can't get a definitive statement on where or how to do it is because it depends upon the sound you're after vs what you might want vs what you're getting?I do realize the purpose of the resonant head...that much of the depth comes from it. I just thought it would be odd to mic your other drums batter-side...but then do the kick resonant side...especially if it has no hole. But can't tell how it will really sound until I try it!!! Though...there might be a phase issue...and you would not get much of the attack, which comes from the batter side. That said...I'm just trying to get an idea of what others are doing....BEFORE...I cut the hole. However, I think I am pretty much decided on cutting a hole...similar to what Lee is describing...5" and off center, top-right...maybe top-left(?). By having the hole, I think I will have easy/many options...outside the drum....just at the edge of the hole...part inside...all the way inside... I know some folks like to use a lot of mics on drum kits...even top/bottom mic all the drums...plus overheads....plus ambient room mics... But I will do my damnedest to use as few as possible...though as everyone agrees, you have to experiment before you come up with the right number and positioning. P.Sound... I downloaded you Drum Tuning Bible, and I must say you did a very thorough job! I also like this link you posted ( this link ) ...the diagrams they have are very well done, and make it easy for anyone to understand the written concepts. Much thanks to all. Oh...have any of you that DO cut holes in your kick's head...ever had the problem of the head splitting/cracking because of it? At $40 a pop...I would hate to see that happen! miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 No, I've never had, nor seen, a problem with the head splitting when you have a hole. If you go to a drum shop, they have hole templates which you can stick on the head and it acts as a guide for you to cut the hole (which I do with a utility knife), and then it also provides a bit of a rim arond the hole to protect the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prof.Sound Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 miroslav: Fair enough. There is still a wide group[ of engineers that still mic the resonant head of all the drums as well. Typically many samples out ther are a result of blending that sound. Doesn't happen at the Project Studio level much because of limited resources. Yes phase issues are always at play. Thats why even if you use 1 mic in the kik, you need to check everything in mono as well during setup. But flipping the electrical phase or movement of the mic fixes that. More mics, typically equals more problems, but it doesn't mean using a few are without problems. The size vs placement of the hole are 2 different things. In the DTB, I address what the different sizes do and how they can impact the end result. I could also go into the theory of multiple holes as well, but it appears that your decision to have a hole is largely based upon a mic issue. Small holes off center offer the ability to get a mic into a drum on either a cast base with a goose neck stand or a small boom. If you prefer using the small boom, some do not go low enough to utilize a hole clocked at anything much below the 9:00 or 3:00 position and have the boom arm reach in where the mic can be positioned to the center of the head. If you prefer to lay a mic in the drum (such as a boundary layer mic), then its better to have them below the 9:00 or 3:00 position or maybe even go with a large center hole. So I think your first concern should be sound and feel of the drum because you need to strive for the best possible sound without a mic and then focus on how best to capture your sound. Keep in mind, that if you do not have a hole in the kick, the feel and sound of that drum is going to change once you put them in. Some drummers think its a pretty dramatic change; others are very tolerant of it and doesn't effect them too much. Personally, any minor change for me in the feel really throws me off. Throw back to the single headed days I guess? Nonetheless, I really like the sound of a full headed resonant side but for me, the beater dribbles off the head at the kind of pedal tensions I like. The solution for this is what DW does to their heads, and that is multiple small holes around the perimeter. Or alternatives are the Evans EQ1 or EQ2, which both have small vents. But that alters the concept on how to mic the drum. Just a few more things to consider. Author and new site of the As of August 2004 - New Home of the Drum Tuning Bible v3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted June 1, 2003 Author Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by P.Sound: ...it appears that your decision to have a hole is largely based upon a mic issue.Yes...that is it. I have do have some small desktop stands that will rise up to about 2' high...and they also have 2' booms. They will be just right for a head with a hole...and even for no hole…or for bottom mics on the floor tom or snare. But...as much as I have “decided” to go with a hole...trust me...I will first do some experimenting without it. If I like what I'm hearing...you won't see me running for the exacto-knife!!! I've actually been thinking about another twist. If I like the sound without any hole...I'm might consider taking off the resonant head just so I could place a mic inside the drum (securely on a pillow/pad)...and then run a mic wire through the vent hole (yeah, gotta' cut the connector off first...no biggie)...and then putting the resonant head back. Then...I can mic the resonant head...but still be able to get the sound from inside the kit when desired...with the permanently internal mic!!! Only question is...which mic do I want to assign to "permanent duty"...inside the kit... Hey...I like to experiment... miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 8 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 BAH! You don't need no stinking hole! All it does is reduce your heads ability to resonate. Get one of these! http://www.audio-media.no/Web_salg/MAY/mk2.jpg May internal mics is the most intelligent way to mic drums -especially for live use! Just set it and forget it... What more could you ask for? Super 8 Hear my stuff here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 My own theory, although I am a chronic fuckup with a 28" and 32" calfskin orchestral bass drum for a kick: The resonant head, which should not necessarily be perforated, is for the very low frequencies, and long wavelengths of sound waves consequently. Damping this head at all will totally hamper the potential for any really low frequencies. Maybe you don't really deal in serious low frequencies. Few do. The batter head is all about the attack. Higher frequencies, shorter wavelengths. So mic the batter head, putting the mic at the exact angle as the mic on the snare, so both have perfect phase coherency and serious unmitigated punch. Exact placement is most critical. Optomize. The short wavelengths from the batter head will travel the short distance to the mic with nothing in the way. The resonant head will be at a greater distance, giving the long low wavelengths half a chance to unfold on the way to the mic, and since it's about low stuff, no problem to have the batter head in the way. Warning: if you do this, you may not sound just like everybody else. That could be embarassing! A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer_boy Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 I play loud enough that i don't need to have the mic. I've read that if you don't play with mics, it is better to have no hole in the head. I disagree, i like the sound i get out of my bass drum, hole at about 4-o-clock and two blankets, on my Premier Artist Birch 18x22 bass. Both the front and batter heads have a ring on the inside of the head, the batter has a Remo Falams double patch. On my Pearl Rythym Traveler, hole in same position, one pillow [the daggone thing is so shallow, its all i can fit in it]. The batter has a clear Evans EQ patch. I like my bass to breath, that's why i put the hole, but to each his [or her] own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Didja hear about the blonde drummer? Cut a hole on the BACK head of the kick drum... BaDUM CHING... Thanks, folks, I'll be here all week... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Here are a few tips that I have found helpful. If anyone disagrees please feel free to correct me. First of all if you cut a hole from 7" to 8" then it will sound almost as if you did not have a front bass head. 4" - 5" is just about right. Next, if you put the hole in the very center then the air pushed by the beater will escape fast, effecting the tone. I think that a 4 1/2" hole at about the 5:00 position is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threshold Posted August 8, 2003 Share Posted August 8, 2003 All, Not that big of an issue. But, this is an area where the Yamaha Sub Kick could help streamline things when setting up a good kick drum sound. Threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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