recognizing SPAM.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

the recent closure of this very obviously advert thread got me thinking about what exactly constitutes SPAM around here.

 

do we have firm guidelines here, or is it a matter of moderator disposition? by "firm guidelines" i mean a specific policy beyond a simple statement like, "this forum shall not be used for commercial purposes." is this codified, or is it less formal?

 

witness, for example, our own redepelteau who regularly treads the line. his last post was another shill for his homemade basses . but his discussions of how these basses are made is probably worth the sometimes-subtle commercialism in all his posts.

 

i usually lean towards the offerings of my current employer, since that's the product line i have the most information about and familiarity with. i generally use a disclaimer, but the notion is still there.

 

are there any other examples of dubious posts? just what does constitute SPAM?

 

robb.

[TimR]

Usually it comes from someone who registers and posts once, just to promote the product.

 

redepelteau does not spam. He is using us as a sounding board for his (often) wacky ideas. Personnaly I think he is pushing the boundaries of what has become over the last 40+ years a fairly standard instrument.

 

I don't think you backing a product that your company makes is a problem at all. I wouldn't want to work for a company that made rubbish and I frequently have to explain to my customers why our products and services are better (different) to others. I truly believe our products/services are better in some respects, but know that there are some areas where we don't perform as well as the competition.

 

Generally I think that the view is; if it is of genuine interest to bass players and will promote discussion, it is not seen as SPAM.

[TimR]

Of course if you work for Behringer well....

[JonathanD]

I support 2 places. 1 has always given me great service and the other I use to work at and know the owner is a good guy with good prices. If it is apporpriate I tell people about it. I think that the poster you mentioned is fine, its a nice topic and I learn from the discussion. I dont think you can put rules on something like this because then people will jsut exploit the rules so they can advertise and cry injustice when someone boots them.

Jonathan

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

... or work for Hartke?

 

Some of us use the forum to advertise events in our areas that are of interest to other forum members, such as the occational GigSpam post.

 

The "Buy My CD" or "Bass Player Wanted" threads are definately spam, as the posters just logs on, posts, then is never heard from again.

 

If Leigh, or Jisi, or Herrera log on and speak to PBM, it is not spam as this forum revolves around Bass Player Magazine. I have never read a post from Ed Friedland recommending us to buy one of his books.

[Dave Brown]

Yep, I closed the thread. I could re-open it again, if there is forum interest.

 

Here are the reasons I thought it was spam:

 

1. New poster, who's never contributed anything.

2. The original thread was posted twice (which could have been an accident, or could have been a way of getting one past the mods.)

3. Link was direct to an eBay auction for one of his basses.

4. Jeremy's ears perked up quickly.

 

I initially left the link to the bass up, so that members could look at it. Jim Quinn and I exchanged emails, and he later removed that link.

 

Obviously we have an interest in products of all sorts, and innovation is prized. One difference I see between redepelteau and this builder is that he posts on several topics, and seems to open himself up to the discussion over the benefits of design ideas.

 

We have members that represent several products or companies. Their posts don't get blocked because they most frequently contribute to the discussion, and only mention their products in response to specific questions ro problems.

 

So robb, when you mentioned a new bass amp design by Peavey, it wasn't perceived as you using an unfair advantage to market a product. It was perceived as an inside scoop.

 

Of course, it could just be a whim after all.

[fantasticsound]

To add to the thoughts of our late moderator, Dave, it's all in the presentation.

 

I'm an infrequent contributor to the Low Down, but post regularly at The Guitar Player forum. A few years ago a bonafide session ace from NYC, Carmine (IIRC) began posting on the GP forum. His posts were not designed to engage people here. They mostly linked his discussions on the Melancon Guitars forum and to his own site. He couldn't understand why we didn't bask in his greatness and follow him to the other forums.

 

This situation eventually went way over the line and the moderator of the Melancon forum became involved. He banned Carmine and publicly apologized here. At the time a discussion on record companies also grabbed his attention and he added to the discussion, using his own indie label as an example. He was careful to say if anything he posted was perceived as spam that he totally understood if it were removed from the discussion.

 

But it wasn't spam, wasn't perceived by anyone on the forum as spam, and added some points to the thread that otherwise would never have been made. Although he didn't stick around long, his contribution and the manner in which he made it made all the difference in keeping his personal business interests from being seen as spam.

 

I see it like a bar or club. If you're a regular visitor, known by the community or owner and someone who'll sit down for some conversation then advertising your business, within reason, is not only tolerated but often invited. If you have a business go ahead and link information in your signature. Let the forum find you if they're interested. And if something interesting is happening in your world, business or not, these forums have always invited members to share what's happening in their lives. In that context tellling us of your new model guitar or of a product you endorse isn't regarded as spam.

[jcadmus]

I think there are a few criteria for what constitutes SPAM:

 

1) SPAM sells -- It's typically direct and specific about wanting to take your money.

 

2) SPAM is illegitimate -- one-week diet plans, miracle cures for baldness, get-rich-quick schemes, male enhancement products, gimmicks that will make you play bass like Jaco within a week, etc. SPAM offers nothing of any real value.

 

3)SPAM barges in -- it comes from people you don't know, storming into your email space or our forum with little regard for us, our privacy or our real interests and concerns.

 

All subjective, I suppose, but that's my acid test for it.

[Ross Brown]

I thought about this before I posted my recent "bass player wanted" post for another band. My thoughts were that, even if someone were not interested in the post per se, they might find useful information, ie what the gig paid, what other bands are up to, how to find musicians, etc. As mostly bass players, I thought it would be interesting to all and could be beneficial. Could be a good opportunnity for a fellow bass player.

 

Could be something that could go in a "classified" thread or group, but I didn't see one.

[Aldena]

Ross, I liked the 'bass player wanted' thread. It started a discussion, let me see what other bands are up to, get ideas for our band, etc...

[Ross Brown]

yea, after thinking about it, I thought it was appropriate.

[Bob Gollihur]

Spam, or policy violations really are in the eye of the beholder.

 

As a moderator, it's often a tough call, a lot of stuff is on the border, but the trouble is the later queries:

 

"How come I can't post xxx when you let yyy post this???"

 

The hit and run posters are pretty easy to call. "Spam" doesn't have a black and white definition, and I think the moderator job is to keep the content of the board on topic. Allowing one For Sale ad or Commercial Post to remain serves as a signpost for all others that it's ok to do this here. And suddenly bass discussions becomes the minority topic in the board content. Some of you may remember a specific forum that was total anarchy in the past, most of the worthwhile posters deserted in droves.

 

One of the things that makes this forum attractive is its signal/noise ratio. I'm absolutely sure that many of the calls we make could be questioned, but somebody has to wield the red pen.

[Ross Brown]

Could there be a "permanent" thread? ie Classified ads, or musicians wanted? at the begining of the listings like some of the other forums?

 

I don't feel strongly about it, just an idea...

 

SPAM is a tough call, I agree.

[jeremy c]

There are plenty of other sites for classified ads and musicians wanted. This site has functioned very well as an exchange of information and thoughts.

 

Placing ads for musicians wanted on a forum which is read by bassists worldwide is fairly useless anyway.

 

I notice that the blues band listing does not list a location. No city, no country. The gig pays so little that only someone who lives nearby could even consider it. That means that the listing is totally wasted on all the rest of us.

[Ross Brown]

Jeremy,

 

You have good points.

 

The location was probably implied by the website.

 

What I did learn, among other things, was that this was really low pay, in the minds of other bassists. I thought it was, but you know, I wasn't sure. I knew it would never do it for me, but I have another job.

 

I found it interesting that they wanted someone with a particular type of bass. I learned something there, too.

 

The gig in the posting was probably not "big" enough for this forum, but this could be a right place for certain types of acts. Maybe not.

 

I could have posted differently to address the questions that the ad raised, I agree. Something like "hey everyone, is $300 a week low pay?"

 

I didn't realize that there was a policy about this type of post either (there is. I just found out). I have seen them before and found them interesting.

[Rocky McDougall]

I have a question about touring bands. Do the band members usually make a weekly salary? Are their living expenses paid for?

$300 a week with living expenses covered may not be a bad job for single person just wanting to play music.

Rocky

[mcbn]

One of the things I like about this forum is the lack of SPAM. I like seeing the GIGSPAM posts. It is cool seeing where others are playing. I also don't mind the regular forum contributors posting a CD release. We end up hearing about their band drama, gigs and/or recording experiences anyway; it really is the next logical step.

 

I for one don't think we really need a stickied "for sale" thread. If you do recall, we have had a few extremely successful eBay threads and not all of those posts were specific to eBay. The added bonus was that we got to see some funny/interesting/eccentric/feline basses pop up every now and then.

 

Further, I don't think it is a big deal if the regular contributors post up a link to their for sale items, myspace pages, band websites or CD sales in their signature blocks. I've been guilty of this more than once myself. Some people get away with more than others, of course once you get over around 1,000 posts most of the regulars & mods will know who you are.

 

By the way, I'm selling my motorcycle if anyone is interested