Frustrated with singers

[Ross Brown]

If a guitarist/singer sounds off key while singing at an audition, is it a given that he/she will sound bad anywhere? I am beginning to question the universe. I am frustrated with auditioning guitar players/singers. None of them can carry a tune for an entire song. I cant believe that they think they can sing. Typically they are or were in other bands where they were singing. We have one average/bad vocalist. Dont need another.

 

Also, I believe that it wont matter how good the band is instrumentally, we will drive (bar) customers away if the singing is off key. I am right, right? Maybe they will just throw stuff at us. Do they shoot the bass player if the singer is bad?

 

This is a continued frustration for me.. Just sharing

[Big Daddy from Motown]

You're right.

[Steve Force]

Keep looking for a real singer.

[Tone Taster]

Singers will make or break the band, no doubt

Don't settle for less. I would document the errors in te audition so you can explain why they didn't cut the gig so they don't think you are just being arbitrary, though

[Danzilla]

But bad singers are all the rage now. Go with the worst one, and get ready to rake in the millions.

[thanny XIII]

I think the guy from the final countdown video is available...

[Ross Brown]

I know that I wince when these guys hit bad notes. I have got to try to stop that. Sometimes I get that "crap I am way off" feeling but them realize that the singer is so far from anything that sounds like music that there is no covering it.

 

I do appreciate everyone's responses.

[alexclaber]

I got so tired of auditioning less than impressive singers, that I decided to deal with the lead vocals myself. Quite a few singing lessons, many hours of woodshedding playing and singing, and lots of recording and rehearsals later, and I am SO glad that my hand was forced.

 

I may not be a great vocalist, but I'm usually in tune, sound different (apparently that's good!), and although an audience will tear apart most bad vocalists and disregard their band, if you're simultaneously playing an instrument competently then they'll be a lot more favourable in their view.

 

Can anyone in your band carry a tune? Give them a mic and see what happens!

 

Alex

[Tim C]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

I am frustrated with auditioning guitar players/singers.

I am frustrated just trying to find singers to audition, we just get a bunch of screamers, yeah we play some metal, but you can't scream over funk rock and have it sound good

[Tenstrum]

I'm kinda in the same situation.

The singer of the band I'm currently in is not the greatest vocalist in the world. He does OK on most songs, but tends to push himself too hard and easily gets out of key.

 

I've told him in the past that if he would stop pushing himself so hard, he would sound better, but it goes in one ear and out the other...

[Rocky McDougall]

This is a little off subject but I was going to post it anyway. I get very irritated listening to some of the NEW MUSIC being sung by mostly young female singers. I guess you would call this some kind of Ballad but it is extremely monotone. No range in the song whatsoever. Is the song written for singers with no range or is it just the style now. Several very popular female stars come to mind.

[Rowbee]

There are a lot of bad singers out there, I guess it's maybe easier to palm yourself off as a musician than with any other instrument - I think the karaoke\pop idol culture is partially to blame. That said, I think if someone is a good frontperson, you can cut them a "little" slack on the vocal front.

 

My problem at the moment is frustration with the guitarist in one of my bands. He formed the band with a drummer friend of his who is no longer with us and in hindsight seemed to be the most motivated of the two.

 

I joined later when their other bassist left and I seem to be the only one trying to push us forwards, having done all the work to find us a new drummer and am definitely the only one interested in creating new music for the band. He only seems interested when there is a gig coming up and we end up plodding through the same songs.

 

However, as a consequence it's motivated me to get networking in this area to find more work, I've only been here about a year or so. I've found loads of interesting potential bands, one of which is a reggae band which I've always wanted to do.

 

I've also found another funk guitarist, would it be wrong to join a band and try and replace the last founding member? Would I be best off forming a new band around the other guitarist?

[Eric VB]

I've heard more working bands with horrible vocals than great vocals. So compared to them, yeah, I could claim that I have gig-able vocals.

 

The quality usually goes up for vocals for recording (although I've heard some real clunkers there, too). I would not claim to have recording-quality vocals.

 

It seems to afflict the young moreso than their older counterparts. When I was 18 the band I was in wanted me to sing, and I sang even worse back then!

 

I like Alex' idea. I keep threatening to take voice lessons, and my wife keeps saying "go ahead!" (Maybe she's trying to tell me something?)

 

The problem is that (at least in the U.S.) kids don't sing like they used to. There used to be more music education at school. There used to be a time when if you wanted to hear a song, you'd have to sing it yourself (or find someone to sing it for you). Don't want to sing a capella? You'd have to play the piano yourself (or find an accompanist). Now kids can just play the same CD (or mp3) over and over; if they do decide to sing along, the stereo is usually loud enough to drown out their (horrible) singing.

 

It will only get worse. Autotune-type audio equipment will allow offkey people to keep singing offkey. That way more female dancers can become "recording artists" and lip-sync through their highly choreographed "concerts" (where the ticket plainly states that parts of the program have been pre-recorded).

 

Of course, if you look at this Bandwidth thread , there are times when our expectations can be unreasonably too high. (Expecting a singer to sing in tune is not unreasonable.) Going through singers like water because none of them sing like (a young) Robert Plant doesn't help anyone.

 

If you watch American Idol (or similar programs in other countries), they're dealing with the same problem on a much larger scale. Even the finalists have pitch problems, and those are the top 10 or 12 from tens of thousands of entrants.

 

So, if you're a young band I'd say don't expect too much out of the singers you're auditioning. Sure, we'd all like to have a good singer, but I think they're in short supply so just make do with what's available. If you have the cash, invest in some autotune-type equipment. In the meantime, take some voice lessons (and the rest of the band as well) and hopefully in the future you won't need to look any further than yourself for a good singer.

[PhilMan99]

Could part of the problem be that so much "music" today is atonal-rap? It seems like so much music today doesn't involve concerns about pitch.

 

Even a lot of groups that supposedly have "singers" pretty-much just "drone" on a few different pitches.

 

I think popular music has to be simple enough that teenagers can think to themselves, "hey, I can do that!". It seems like the bar started getting pretty low around the early 80s, though...

[Rocky McDougall]

Originally posted by PhilMan99:

Could part of the problem be that so much "music" today is atonal-rap? It seems like so much music today doesn't involve concerns about pitch.

 

Even a lot of groups that supposedly have "singers" pretty-much just "drone" on a few different pitches.

 

I think popular music has to be simple enough that teenagers can think to themselves, "hey, I can do that!". It seems like the bar started getting pretty low around the early 80s, though...

Hey PhilMan, Is "Atonal" a real word, I've never herd it used before. If not, it should be, a really like it, I have a lot of uses for it.....

Rocky

[jcadmus]

Originally posted by thanny XIII:

I think the guy from the final countdown video is available...

LOL

 

Yeah, probably the "Self Esteem" guy too.

 

A good singer is a mighty tough thing to find. Put to rest the myth that he's "only" a singer.

[Ross Brown]

We are an older band (I am youngest at 46). No rappers here. I was wondering about the situation where if you hear a recorded version of a live performance it sounds flat and off key. If you are at the live performance, it sounds fine. I think this occurs on American Idol. Based on the judges and audience response, what come across on TV is different than what is heard in the venue.

 

If it is bad in rehersal, perhaps a miracle will occur and it will be in tune at the gig. So far I am reading from this group that this will not occur, it will be just as bad. I agree.

 

I seem to be more sensitive to it than the other bandmates. This worries me too because they think I can play ok.

[PhilMan99]

Originally posted by Rocky3840:

Originally posted by PhilMan99:

Could part of the problem be that so much "music" today is atonal-rap? It seems like so much music today doesn't involve concerns about pitch.

 

Even a lot of groups that supposedly have "singers" pretty-much just "drone" on a few different pitches.

 

I think popular music has to be simple enough that teenagers can think to themselves, "hey, I can do that!". It seems like the bar started getting pretty low around the early 80s, though...

Hey PhilMan, Is "Atonal" a real word, I've never herd it used before. If not, it should be, a really like it, I have a lot of uses for it.....

Rocky

Yes, per websters.com.

[Cozmicslop]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

We are an older band (I am youngest at 46). No rappers here. I was wondering about the situation where if you hear a recorded version of a live performance it sounds flat and off key. If you are at the live performance, it sounds fine. I think this occurs on American Idol. Based on the judges and audience response, what come across on TV is different than what is heard in the venue.

 

If it is bad in rehersal, perhaps a miracle will occur and it will be in tune at the gig. So far I am reading from this group that this will not occur, it will be just as bad. I agree.

I had a weird experience that was just the opposite. While recording a demo the singer sounded sharp on every note. The wired thing is she was consistent throught. I heard the recording back and it was awesome.

 

Time to clean the wax out, I guess.

[thanny XIII]

Mopst singer pitch problems come from a singer who

 

A) doesn't listen to the rest of the band

or

b) runs around alot and gets really really really tired.

 

Do you do covers, or originals? If it's covers the singer might be singing along with the cd and never really hear themselves and think they are the shiz. Make them practice a cappela.

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by thanny XIII:

Mopst singer pitch problems come from a singer who

 

A) doesn't listen to the rest of the band

or

b) runs around alot and gets really really really tired.

 

Do you do covers, or originals? If it's covers the singer might be singing along with the cd and never really hear themselves and think they are the shiz. Make them practice a cappela.

Nobody in our band runs around a lot. I'll walk around a little. We play/will be playing bars with limited space. We do covers. I thought about asking them to sing with instruments turned way down. Guitarists tend to be a little loud

 

Can't make them practice a cappela. Might suggest it though. Some of these guys have been playing in bands previously. Am I the first to think they are off key?

[TimR]

Two problems we have.

1. The band is too loud so the singer has trouble pitching because she can't hear herself properly. This will hopefully be cured by getting the monitor levels correct. Or putting the drummer out in the car park.

2. We do a wide range of covers in lots of different styles, with varying pitch ranges. Some of the songs we have to transpose because she cannot get the notes.

This will hopefully get better as she chooses songs in her range. We have a lot of standards that were learned in keys for previous singers, she struggles a lot with these.

 

Are you expecting singers to audition to tunes you have selected, or do you play tunes they select? Have they been given recordings of you playing to practice to first?

[Ross Brown]

Originally posted by TimR:

Two problems we have.

1. The band is too loud so the singer has trouble pitching because she can't hear herself properly. This will hopefully be cured by getting the monitor levels correct. Or putting the drummer out in the car park.

2. We do a wide range of covers in lots of different styles, with varying pitch ranges. Some of the songs we have to transpose because she cannot get the notes.

This will hopefully get better as she chooses songs in her range. We have a lot of standards that were learned in keys for previous singers, she struggles a lot with these.

 

Are you expecting singers to audition to tunes you have selected, or do you play tunes they select? Have they been given recordings of you playing to practice to first?

We play songs that they select and have experience with. I could understand if they never heard the songs before, but it is their choice. We either know the songs or we prepare them prior to the auditions. We do also play songs on our set lists and let them play along, etc but that is the part of the audition where we are giving them something about us. ie in the off chance that they would not want to join, should we make the offer.

[jeremy c]

Keep auditioning singers.

 

There has to be someone out there who can sing.

 

Rap is not atonal. Look up the definition of atonal...it's a real word and has been used for over a century.

 

Maybe we could call rap "nontonal".

[Whacked]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

The problem is that (at least in the U.S.) kids don't sing like they used to. There used to be more music education at school. There used to be a time when if you wanted to hear a song, you'd have to sing it yourself (or find someone to sing it for you). Don't want to sing a capella? You'd have to play the piano yourself (or find an accompanist).

A little derailing but got to comment on this.

Years ago, my dad was on the School board and on the district counsil and aways had the same beef for the same problem. whenever a school or the district had to make budget cuts, my dad was always in favor of cutting a little from the various dept. He was always out argued and outvoted and the cuts always came out of the music department. heaven forbid if any funds were removed from the athletic department.

 

Funny, but if one member in the school band was slightly off key or slightly out of tempo, everyone knows it, yet at a sports game if one player was having a slightly off day, nobody would notice. My dads biggest arguement and the one that really fell on deaf ears is that music involved more teamwork than sports, otherwise sports would not need the "most valuable player" award at all.

 

BTW: my dad never played a musical instrument in his life, he played football and was damn good at it. He had offers to play college football but instead got married then went into the army.

[J. Robert Rennix]

Originally posted by jeremy c:

Keep auditioning singers.

 

There has to be someone out there who can sing.

 

Rap is not atonal. Look up the definition of atonal...it's a real word and has been used for over a century.

 

Maybe we could call rap "nontonal".

Rap isn't non-tonal either. Every rhyme I've ever heard was delivered at some pitch ... and those same rhymes would sound different if you changed their pitch. I believe it is possible to rap out of key.

[Brocko777]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

Also, I believe that it wont matter how good the band is instrumentally, we will drive (bar) customers away if the singing is off key. I am right, right? Maybe they will just throw stuff at us. Do they shoot the bass player if the singer is bad?

Finding the key that is comfortable for the singer is.... um... key. We reherse at low volume for vox practice and everyone gets the critiquin' We actually get the note pitches and write them down so we know what our 'note' is for harmonies. Might the singer not know they are out of key? Singing the wrong note? Can happen.

As far as shooting the bass player, just avoid standing behind the singer when they're takin' aim.

 

I've NEVER heard a bar-fly say that the band was great EXCEPT for the singer/bass player/kazoo solo.... just "That band sucked", no fingers get pointed.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Originally posted by Ross Brown:

I cant believe that they think they can sing.

And yet they show up to audition for American Idol (a show that I can proudly say I've never seen) by the bus load thinking just that.

[slowfinger]

Off on a tangent -

Originally posted by Rocky3840:

This is a little off subject ... mostly young female singers. ... extremely monotone. No range in the song whatsoever ...

Janis Joplin had a limited range. (but I love her to bits)

'R E S P E C T' has only 3 notes (C, G, & F).

 

Just an observation Rocky - I guess it depends on the delivery. The type of song of which you write sounds dull and boring to me as well. The songs are for looking at, not listening to.

[bottle12am]

The band I was in that has had the worst lead vocalist wound up being the most successful (regional touring, a real record deal with iTunes distributing, nice guarantees at clubs, etc).

 

But the lead vocalist had charisma for days; treated club owners as business partners, musicians as human beings, and crowds as long-lost partners-in-partying. It made up for any shortcomings.

 

It was an all-originals band, so I think that helped. If you're in a cover band, the audience knows where the notes should be.