Steve Earle's song about John Walker Lindh

[rold]

[b]Lyrics to "John Walker's Blues" by Steve Earle: [/b] I'm just an American boy raised on MTV And I've seen all those kids in the soda pop ads But none of 'em looked like me So I started lookin' around for a light out of the dim And the first thing I heard that made sense was the word Of Mohammed, peace be upon him A shadu la ilaha illa Allah There is no God but God If my daddy could see me now -- chains around my feet He don't understand that sometimes a man Has to fight for what he believes And I believe God is great all praise due to him And if I should die I'll rise up to the sky Just like Jesus, peace be upon him We came to fight the Jihad and our hearts were pure and strong As death filled the air we all offered up prayers And prepared for our martyrdom But Allah had some other plan some secret not revealed Now they're draggin' me back with my head in a sack To the land of the infidel ---------------------------- Critics say he's unpatriotic and defenders consider him provocative. In a story Sunday, the New York Post charged that the song glorifies Lindh. Nashville radio personality Steve Gill said on CNN Tuesday that Earle was trying "to be outrageous to attract attention." What do you guys think?

[Dak Lander]

'rold, whar th' 'ell ya been? Not sayin' nothin' 'bout th' tune.... Steve Earle is very good. I've liked his stuff for years. His stuff should be played more on the air.

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by Dak Lander: [b]'rold, whar th' 'ell ya been?[/b][/quote]bah, been caught up dealin' with domestic crap :rolleyes: [quote][b] Not sayin' nothin' 'bout th' tune....[/b][/quote]Nothin'? Nothin' at all? [quote][b] Steve Earle is very good. I've liked his stuff for years. His stuff should be played more on the air.[/b][/quote]I agree - very talented songwriter and performer. I don't think this tune is going to help him with airtime tho.. ;)

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Nashville radio personality Steve Gill said on CNN Tuesday that Earle was trying "to be outrageous to attract attention."[/quote]I think he wrote the song because he was inspired by something he read or saw on TV. Does there have to be any other reason? Does he need to validate his creativity somehow?

[Lee Flier]

Well it's about par for the course for Steve Earle, he's pretty much a patron saint of lost causes, hopeless cases, rebels without a chance in hell. I think he probably just relates to people like that emotionally. I doubt very much he sympathizes with Lindh's actual "cause" but probably does relate to the *idea* of something being really important to your existence that your society will never, ever understand and will punish you for. Yeah it's probably meant to cause outrage, but I don't think there's anything calculated about Steve Earle's desire to cause outrage. I think it's for real, like he just knows that whatever naturally comes out of him is probably going to piss a lot of people off. :D

[Dak Lander]

No 'rold, the song probably won't help Steve with air play but it's stil a good song. Some folks won't see it that way but that's their loss for being narrow minded. The fact remains Steve Earle is one of the best current song writers out there. This is really not any different than the 60's protest songs, along with others in that era. It's more pertenent to the current times is the only caveat & what will cause the shit to run down hill. Late 'rold, Good to see you back in the fold.

[Lee Flier]

CNN's story about this quotes Earle thusly: [quote] "I don't condone what [Walker Lindh] did. ... My son Justin is almost exactly Walker's age. Would I be upset if he suddenly turned up fighting for the Islamic Jihad? Sure, absolutely. Fundamentalism, as practiced by the Taliban, is the enemy of real thought, and religion, too." But , he said, "The culture here didn't impress [Walker Lindh], so he went looking for something to believe in." Earle went on to say, "I'm not trying to get myself deported or something. In a big way this is the most pro-American record I've ever made. I feel urgently American." Danny Goldberg, CEO of Artemis Records, the company releasing "Jerusalem," [Earle's new album] has rallied to Earle's defense. "The song does not glorify John Walker Lindh." said Goldberg. "It would be a pretty shallow culture if songwriters only wrote about nice people." [/quote]Yeah, well, lots of people apparently expect songwriters and musicians to be nice, safe people writing about nice, safe, inane subjects. Pretty sad.

[fantasticsound]

Personally, I just wish he would shut up. I've heard so many accolades for Steve Earle and his songwriting in recent years, and I just don't see what the fuss is about. I [i]do[/i] see him open his mouth on every polarized political issue and, frankly, I don't believe he does it for altruistic reasons. Seems he's discovered he has a small, niche, fan base that won't buy the record if he isn't [i]on[/i] record in the news as being a rebel to the powers that be. The lyrics to the JWL song are adequate at best, IMO. The sentiment, however noble it may appear, [i]does[/i] glorify JWL. It makes him a living martyr for being caught, detained, and tried for crimes against Americans on behalf of a foreign power. I wouldn't be surprised to see Islamic radicals using the tune to protest the "infidel" nation, in the manner South Africans and American activists latched on to the Peter Gabriel tune, "Biko" about Stephen Biko. It's an insult to Biko and others who have been glorified in song as a protest to inhumane treatment by gov't's around the world. Perhaps, for an encore, Earle can write a song suggesting that Osama Bin Laden is as innocent as JWL for simply acting on his beliefs. As for Steve Gill, he's another glory hound. Along with other right wing radio talk show hosts, he put pressure on the Tennessee state legislature to kill the passage of a state income tax. While I support the objective, he continually comes off as the worst kind of grandstanding right wing zealot the liberals can vilify because of his righteousness on every subject he covers. To believe the rhetoric, he's never been wrong about anything. Not [i]the[/i] spokesman I'd like to have at point man on this issue.

[Chip McDonald]

There's tradition of writing "sympathetic" blues about "unpopular" people: murderers seemed to be popular. We have all sorts of songs about someone waiting for the hangman, someone wishing he hadn't killed his girl, someone who couldn't stop stealing, someone who kicked a man while he was down, someone who couldn't stop drinking/doing drugs. The taboo nature of it must have lent an edge to it at one time. Earle's tune: this is good, because it's a truly *modern* blues. Stuff like this needs to be written, because instead of a phony rehash of an angle that has already occured yearsssss ago, it's actually a commentary on something happening *now*. I'm sick of hearing country songs that rehash the same thing - sometimes you hear a modern reference, but seldom is the whole song set in *our* times exclusively. *One day a country artist is going to come along with a cd full of *contemporary* themed songs, and it's going to hit like Bob Dylan*. Of course, most Americans will be too shallow to understand the concept of writing in character, so Steve Earle will be soundly taken to task because of this for being "un-American" I'm sure.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]...Of course, most Americans will be too shallow to understand the concept of writing in character, so Steve Earle will be soundly taken to task because of this for being "un-American" I'm sure.[/b][/quote]Just so you'll be aware, we'll also be, "too shallow", to accept writing in character about Ken Lay, Tim McVeigh, the killers of the kids who've been recently snatched, etc. There are real people being hurt in all these examples. A song like Earle's about any of these men adds insult to injury. Just because someone, let's say me, is outraged by a song that reduces an enemy of the country to a well meaning, zealot, doesn't make me shallow. That arrogant, self righteous statement is pretty shallow itself, Chip. Just because writing about bad people sometimes has merit doesn't make writing about [i]this[/i] bad person an intelligent choice. Especially at a time when Americans are risking their lives serving their country against his comrades. How much more unpatriotic can you get without committing outright treason?

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]Personally, I just wish he would shut up. I've heard so many accolades for Steve Earle and his songwriting in recent years, and I just don't see what the fuss is about. I [i]do[/i] see him open his mouth on every polarized political issue and, frankly, I don't believe he does it for altruistic reasons. Seems he's discovered he has a small, niche, fan base that won't buy the record if he isn't [i]on[/i] record in the news as being a rebel to the powers that be. The lyrics to the JWL song are adequate at best, IMO. The sentiment, however noble it may appear, [i]does[/i] glorify JWL. It makes him a living martyr for being caught, detained, and tried for crimes against Americans on behalf of a foreign power. I wouldn't be surprised to see Islamic radicals using the tune to protest the "infidel" nation, in the manner South Africans and American activists latched on to the Peter Gabriel tune, "Biko" about Stephen Biko. It's an insult to Biko and others who have been glorified in song as a protest to inhumane treatment by gov't's around the world. Perhaps, for an encore, Earle can write a song suggesting that Osama Bin Laden is as innocent as JWL for simply acting on his beliefs. As for Steve Gill, he's another glory hound. Along with other right wing radio talk show hosts, he put pressure on the Tennessee state legislature to kill the passage of a state income tax. While I support the objective, he continually comes off as the worst kind of grandstanding right wing zealot the liberals can vilify because of his righteousness on every subject he covers. To believe the rhetoric, he's never been wrong about anything. Not [i]the[/i] spokesman I'd like to have at point man on this issue.[/b][/quote]Strange. I read the lyric and interpreted it as JWL getting dumped on from a great height by his god. The song portrays him as passionate, motivated but misguided; i.e. it shows both sides of the argument. If you can't deal with that, you can't deal with that.

[WFTurner]

The only thing JWL was dumped by was "misguided youth". Main reason for the plea bargain, he'll get a chance to finish his life in a somewhat normal fashion in a few decades. I've been an Earle fan but in this case I think his he's polishing a turd. Takin the predicted road of painting the not so smart youth with integrety, calculating the modern artist response of "now there's an artists, artist and those that don't see the validity are shallow. All he had to do was write the song. The rest of the artist community with the torch of art for the sake of art at any cost colored with any social deviance will promote it. He's a smart cat.... not creating art but playing it like a fine tuned fiddle. I can deal with that. That's basically his artistic niche.

[strat0124]

The fact is WE don't know what JWL's story is, WE know what the government tells us, and thats it. Steve Earle is all about talking about the plights of the oppressed, the downtrodden, the tragic, the misguided, ect. I don't think its fair to say he soapboxes for lost causes, because hes been pretty true to his convictions, whether any of us agree or not. And that doesn't make his plights any less or any more. I tend to agree with him 90% of the time. I feel like JWL got nabbed because the MF's couldn't find Ossama, and America needed someone to point at and say "HE DUNNIT!". I hope more Americans call a spade a spade, instead of wrapping themselves in the American flag and becoming oblivious to human suffering. Two wrongs do not make a right. I'm not singling anyone out here, just making general comments.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Well...I honestly do think Steve is a great songwriter, and he has the right to create tunes about anything he wants. I write songs (and several partially-completed books, for that matter) from many perspectives in addition to my own. I never want anyone to label me in any one direction based on my creative output. He may get limited airplay due to everyone's extreme sensitivity on this subject matter (and radio stations' fear of being labeled along with Steve), but he made the decision to do his art the way he saw fit. I hope no one ever takes that right away from me...that, truly, would be unpatriotic. - Jeff

[Franknputer]

You gotta wonder - how far is this, in theory, from something like "Sympathy For The Devil"? (Aside from the lyrics being kinda lame, that is...) And what about, say, Alice Cooper? You might say that the difference is that the Devil isn't a real being - but then, many people would actually disagree with that statement (not me, but people I know would). Steve Earle may be a glory hound, I don't know (I've liked some of his stuff in the past, but I don't really follow him or anything) - but the idea that writing a song like this is "wrong" is highly questionable IMO. It's stuff like this that brings real meaning to (and truly tests ones' commitment to) the ideas of free speech & free expression. Freedom to say what the vast majority agree with is no challenge at all.

[Dwarf]

As a Canadian who's had to sit through 10 months of knee-jerk Americanism, I find it refreshing that Steve Earle can write a song from the other side. There's hope for you guys yet. The US should learn a lesson from Hitler - he oppressed those who would critisize him too. Remember, if free speech doesn't apply to both sides of the argument then it doesn't apply at all. Welcome to the USSA. -- Rob

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Dwarf: [b]As a Canadian who's had to sit through 10 months of knee-jerk Americanism, Rob[/b][/quote]Dude, try *living* here!! Don't get me wrong, the groundswell of coming together and [b]genuine patriotism[/b] is something that is beautiful to see and experience, but we are talking about "knee-jerk Americanism" here, and if you think it's difficult to take in Canada, try experiencing it while living here. The "There's hope for you guys yet." comment is condescending, as if ALL Americans feel the same way about things. I hope you're joking. Even simply by reading posts on this forum, you can certainly see that there are a lot of differing opinions, so to paint everyone in the same light is bizarre to me.

[LeiDeLi]

[quote]Dude, try *living* here!! Don't get me wrong, the groundswell of coming together and genuine patriotism is something that is beautiful to see and experience, but we are talking about "knee-jerk Americanism" here, and if you think it's difficult to take in Canada, try experiencing it while living here.[/quote]You know, Ken, there are many rights that you can exercise while living here. Obviously you have the right to freely speak your opinion. I, and many other Americans, also have the right to state the opinion that your opinion is despicable. Two other rights you may wish to exercise: * You have the right to remain silent. * You have the right to leave. Maybe we would BOTH be happier if you exercised your rights to their fullest !

[Franknputer]

LeiDeLi - If you can't tolerate dissent, then you will never be happy here. It is our duty as Americans to call out the actions of our government that we feel are wrong. Blind patriotism is foolish.

[strat0124]

[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] [quote]Dude, try *living* here!! Don't get me wrong, the groundswell of coming together and genuine patriotism is something that is beautiful to see and experience, but we are talking about "knee-jerk Americanism" here, and if you think it's difficult to take in Canada, try experiencing it while living here.[/quote]You know, Ken, there are many rights that you can exercise while living here. Obviously you have the right to freely speak your opinion. I, and many other Americans, also have the right to state the opinion that your opinion is despicable. Two other rights you may wish to exercise: * You have the right to remain silent. * You have the right to leave. Maybe we would BOTH be happier if you exercised your rights to their fullest ![/b][/quote]Social consciousness at its best. I don't find your statements amusing at all. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have to go Limbaughish on the brother. If you truly support the Constitution you would agree to disagree rather than say the ludicrous . Theres truly nothing conservative in the truest sense of the word if thats what you're trying to convey. My apologies for coming down hard on you, but I spent time in harms way protect those rights in the Constitution and I despise anyone misrepresenting them.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by LeiDeLi: [b] [quote]Dude, try *living* here!! Don't get me wrong, the groundswell of coming together and genuine patriotism is something that is beautiful to see and experience, but we are talking about "knee-jerk Americanism" here, and if you think it's difficult to take in Canada, try experiencing it while living here.[/quote]You know, Ken, there are many rights that you can exercise while living here. Obviously you have the right to freely speak your opinion. I, and many other Americans, also have the right to state the opinion that your opinion is despicable. [/b][/quote]What the hell is despicable about stating that I don't like "knee-jerk Americanism" but that I think genuine patriotism is beautiful? Try reading the whole post before spouting off with what appears to be more "knee-jerk Americanism". Try reading my posts in context to what I am writing, which is in essence *defending* Americans. Try *thinking* more before reacting.

[Dwarf]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b]Dude, try *living* here!![/b][/quote]Hey Ken, there's an old joke that says Canadians are just unarmed Americans with health care. That's not far from the truth. We get ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox & CNN. A very large percentage of what we see on TV is American. The differences between our two countries are diminishing every day. Hell, our kids are starting to spell words wrong because that's the American way. Color? Flavor? Bah, humbug :) [quote][b] The "There's hope for you guys yet." comment is condescending, as if ALL Americans feel the same way about things. I hope you're joking. Even simply by reading posts on this forum, you can certainly see that there are a lot of differing opinions, so to paint everyone in the same light is bizarre to me.[/b][/quote]If you watch the news, or even if you don't watch the news, the impression that one gets is that most, not all, people feel that human rights can be bypassed "because terrorism hit America". Yes I know that a lot of people feel differently, but the overall impression from the media is a narrow minded "We're gonna stop terrorism" rhetoric that gets really tiring to hear. So, if you find my comment condescending then I'm sorry. But I am truly happy to see a country that has had rampant cranial rectal disease for the last ten months starting to show signs of recovery. -- Rob

[remainanon]

Guys, I've lived both places. Don't even bother arguing this point. Americans are Americans. Canadians are Canadians. It's different you know. Whether people want it that way or not. People have differences. No need to tout them, flaunt them, assume your side is better, or assume that your perspective is better. Unless you want to seem ignorant. Cheers JW PS As a Canadian, I always find it interesting to ask people who are US-bashing to substitute another nationality in their comments, just to see how it sounds. Most people start re-thinking their approach, but you still get a few who stick to a bigoted outlook. Just like everywhere else on the planet.

[KenElevenShadows]

{Quote][/QB] The "There's hope for you guys yet." comment is condescending, as if ALL Americans feel the same way about things. I hope you're joking. Even simply by reading posts on this forum, you can certainly see that there are a lot of differing opinions, so to paint everyone in the same light is bizarre to me.[/QB][/QUOTE] If you watch the news, or even if you don't watch the news, the impression that one gets is that most, not all, people feel that human rights can be bypassed "because terrorism hit America". Yes I know that a lot of people feel differently, but the overall impression from the media is a narrow minded "We're gonna stop terrorism" rhetoric that gets really tiring to hear. So, if you find my comment condescending then I'm sorry. But I am truly happy to see a country that has had rampant cranial rectal disease for the last ten months starting to show signs of recovery. -- Rob[/QB][/QUOTE] Maybe your news is a little different, but even our news constantly questions the loss of human rights. It's one of the biggest issues right now in Newsweek, the LA Times, the LA Weekly, the Washington Post, the New York Times, and Yahoo News. Our news media is of course biased -- everyone's news is -- but to say that it is not being discussed is simply wrong. To say that all Americans feel the same way about anything is ludicrous. We've probably got the most heterogeneous population in the world, and with the handy thing called Free Speech, we frequently exercise it and show our diversity. If you've followed the discussion here, you'll know that many of us read the news, and are greatly concerned with human rights of all kinds. This includes everything from Arab-Americans being wrongly detained by our government to the human rights of those in Guantanamo to our rights at airports. We've discussed search and seizures, POTO in India, have entire threads on the "Patriot Act", and all sorts of other things. Since I know that you participate on these threads, you obviously know that we are concerned about these things, so to say or imply that all Americans have "knee-jerk Americanism" is especially bizarre coming from you. No, far from being mindless, many of us continually examine and question what is right and wrong, and whether what our government is doing is right or wrong. To do anything but this would be blind, foolish, and un-American. Maybe a few have this "disease" that you mention, but a lot of us were upset, grieving, and angry at the loss of life on 9/11 and came together in our grief and anger. I fail to see what is wrong with that. I doubt that any other country would feel differently.

[Roto]

The end of the song doesn't sound sympathetic to me. [quote] But Allah had some other plan some secret not revealed Now they're draggin' me back with my head in a sack To the land of the infidel [/quote]I could imagine Johnny Cash writing something like that. I don't see it as a big deal. Plus, if you add to the fact that it's Steve Earle it wasn't going to get airplay anyway.

[Gtoledo3]

It's all pretty ironic. The taliban was ON OUR SIDE when Walker went over there. The Bush administration gave around $40 million to aid the the taliban in the time leading up to the attacks of september 11th.

[strat0124]

[quote]Originally posted by GT3: [b]It's all pretty ironic. The taliban was ON OUR SIDE when Walker went over there. The Bush administration gave around $40 million to aid the the taliban in the time leading up to the attacks of september 11th.[/b][/quote]YOu nailed it. Also if we judged other folk whose contacts with the Bin Ladens the same way JWL is judged, there would be heads rollin!

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b]Maybe your news is a little different, but even our news constantly questions the loss of human rights. It's one of the biggest issues right now in Newsweek, the LA Times, the LA Weekly, the Washington Post, the New York Times, and Yahoo News. Our news media is of course biased -- everyone's news is -- but to say that it is not being discussed is simply wrong. To say that all Americans feel the same way about anything is ludicrous. We've probably got the most heterogeneous population in the world, and with the handy thing called Free Speech, we frequently exercise it and show our diversity. If you've followed the discussion here, you'll know that many of us read the news, and are greatly concerned with human rights of all kinds. ...[/b][/quote]Certainly there are differing opinions on this forum, no denying that. You mentioned "reading" and listed newspapers. I find papers provide a sobre second thought compared to sound bites on the six o'clock news, so maybe that's a good thing in both countries. For people who don't travel, most exposure to the U.S.A. comes to Canada in the form of network television and I think that's where the negative impression comes from in large part. The network television is trash and getting stinkier. Where do they find all these screaming meemies that exploit current affairs for entertainment? Specifically, I include Crossfire, Cudlow and Cramer, Lou Dobbs, Chris Matthews. People that do travel still find a big difference in how news is handled. Just so I don't think it's only me, I ask everyone I know who has come back from a trip, business or pleasure to the U.S. and they are absolutely starved for news. eg. local affiliates start with school sports scores, then who's been arrested for robbing a 7-11, then something about the local politics and it peters out from there. Here it is International, then national, then city, sports, weather. (Except Pope JP is taking the limelight this week, and there's loads of vehicles from the states for the event) The closest U.S. affiliates to Toronto are in Buffalo and the long running joke is "News at eleven, fire in Batavia!" (the tiny frame houses are always burning down) Maybe it's just the people I like to be with tend to think education is important. I'm sure I could find someone on my street who's never heard of Kandahar. But I wouldn't bet my last dollar on it. BTW, how much news do you get about "friendly fire" incidents from Afghanistan? Just wondering as an example.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Charlie-brm: People that do travel still find a big difference in how news is handled. Just so I don't think it's only me, I ask everyone I know who has come back from a trip, business or pleasure to the U.S. and they are absolutely starved for news. eg. local affiliates start with school sports scores, then who's been arrested for robbing a 7-11, then something about the local politics and it peters out from there. Here it is International, then national, then city, sports, weather. (Except Pope JP is taking the limelight this week, and there's loads of vehicles from the states for the event) The closest U.S. affiliates to Toronto are in Buffalo and the long running joke is "News at eleven, fire in Batavia!" (the tiny frame houses are always burning down) Maybe it's just the people I like to be with tend to think education is important. I'm sure I could find someone on my street who's never heard of Kandahar. But I wouldn't bet my last dollar on it. BTW, how much news do you get about "friendly fire" incidents from Afghanistan? Just wondering as an example.[/QB][/quote]Is a half-hour news segment even considered news? It's entertainment, surely, but do people seriously consider things like Fox News to be news programs worthy of the New York Times? Even CNN is embarrassing, with their idiotic stream of news that is "just breaking" -- : "Let us interrupt another one of our inane polarized debates to bring you the latest. It appears that Ari Fleischer has just begun another news conference...." If this is what people are taking seriously when they think of our country, then we're all in a lot of trouble. I'm well-traveled, and so far, every country I can think of with relatively free speech that offer "TV news coverage" appears to be moronic, while their newspapers are often more insightful. I can't imagine that anyone would honestly think that they'd get a realistic depiction of anything on their television. Heck, you rarely get one in a newspaper or magazine until you start reading multiple copies from different places!! By the way, I teach special education. One of my students, according to several psychological evaluations and the Brigance Inventory of Early Development, has the cognitive ability of a 2.5--3.0 year old, and knows that Kandahar, Kunduz, and Kabul are three cities in Afghanistan. I don't know how much is left out, but we get news of friendly fire incidents in Afghanistan from time to time here. Who knows how much is left out? We hear about people getting hit by errant bombs, 'copters gone awry and crashing, etc., so apparently some of the news is getting through. What we get as news is so filtered, but really, if you get back to my main point, how can anyone possibly think that 300 million largely hetereogeneous people in our country would ever share the same views on much of anything?

[autistic bliss]

I doesn't rhyme.