Gigs: Price and Predjudice

[Bottomgottem]

I live in western NC, and ever since the fall of 2001 bars, clubs, and other live music venues have becom decidedly stingy with the amount of money they are willing to pay for quality live music.

 

The bottom totally dropped out of the market here after the terrorist attacks, and has yet to regain its former glory. It seems that these venues have decided that its better to pay a DJ or buy a karoke machine than to pay for live music.

 

Most of the bands in this area are made up of musicians who work full time non-music related jobs, or week-end warriors. Music is a hobby for them. The same can be said for myself. My bandmates , however, are pros who play and teach for their bread.

 

The willingness of these part-time musicians to play for damn cheap, coupled with the onslaught of DJ's (also cheap), has served to keep the pay scale much lower than it was before the fall of '01.

 

Resentment between these groups has ensued, and the club owners are filling their wallets.

 

Has anyone else experienced a similar phenomenon in their region? I'm siding with the pro's, if anyone is wondering.

[ArwinH]

The same thing happened in the business market, I can say so from personal experience in terms of the wholesale and inport/export markets of general merchandise in the U.S. and in some cases abroad.

In the sense of the music market an experienced pro player told me post 2001 is quite different from the way the the market for musical entertainment was in the 80's, the example he gave me, when people had a better economy with cash to throw around and more celebrations to be had.

[Stackimo]

I am sure it's a call made by the owners to put money in their pockets. Live music is just not appreciated as much as it should. Therefore, if a DJ can pack it in, why not.

 

I have noticed it in my home town in SW Florida as well. There are a few club/bars that switched from being a Fri/Sat night live band venue to only going live on Saturdays. To make matters worse, my favorite live band venue that played live music Wed, Thurs, Fri, and Saturdays, became a sports bar.

 

I do feel for those who make a living at it.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Granted, 9-11 was a profond event with far-reaching consequences, but I don't think that it has anything to do with live musicians vs. DJ's.

 

The turn of the century also saw the advance as DJ as entertainer. With the advent of high speed internet, free music downloads, file sharing and technological advances in CD playing and mixing equipment, coupled with more affordable "dance effects", the DJ now has become just as much part of the show as the music being played.

 

So. That said, I don't think club owners are only looking at how much it costs to have a DJ over a live band. I'm sure the patrons have a lot to do with the decision. Face it, any club owner worth their weight would have a live band in a minute if it brought in more patrons (and money).

[Bottomgottem]

Originally posted by Social Critic:

I don't think club owners are only looking at how much it costs to have a DJ over a live band. I'm sure the patrons have a lot to do with the decision. Face it, any club owner worth their weight would have a live band in a minute if it brought in more patrons (and money).

Don't get me wrong; live music does draw as well as a DJ here.

 

And the only reason that I even brought up 9/11 is because immediately afterwards, people stopped going out. Thus, in order to maintain a showing in an area, a band had to work for much less compensation (or even for free) . And now, 4 years later, the owners seem to have us by the short and curlies.

 

In 2000, four hours work for a five piece group was worth $500 in the tiniest hole-in-the-wall that you could find. An 8 or 9 hundred dollar night was not at all unusual.

 

The number of people going to clubs have long since recovered; and then some. But the compensation just will not.

 

I have made the comparison between pros and part-timers because I am closely associated with both types. One band I'm in (5 pieces), who regularly earned $800 per night in 2000, will now book a gig for $250 with out batting an eye. And they are all salesmen and info tech guys who do not need the money. The other (3 pieces: 2 of whom are pros), have to struggle for $300. And they draw better.

 

But perhaps my comparison is flawed.

[Cthulhu Fhtagn]

Not flawed, but more of an "apples to oranges" comparison, methinks. I play what a small music store owner/musician in Athens, OH refers to as "creepy stoner rock". Fine, I'll wear the label for now. There are not very many venues for "creepy stoner rock" out there. They don't pack in a large crowd, just a very loyal niche crowd who spent most of there money on "creepy stoner stuff" and not on cover charges and well drinks.

 

Now, watch any sports channel and see the beer commercials. They are young. They are beautiful. They are stylish. They are fit, graceful and energetic. And they are in a club, drinking the advertised product, in front OF THE DJ! It's just what's ... dare I say it? Hip! Some day, like elephant bells, Chuck Taylors and hugh jazz afros, live music will become stylish and make a comeback.

 

I STILL don't like it any better than you do, either.

[getz out]

You said it yourself:

 

Live music does draw as well as a DJ here.

 

As a CPA, let us talk supply chain logistics.

 

- A bar can get X number of people in the bar by hiring a DJ.

 

- A bar can get Y number of people in the bar by hiring a band.

 

- X = Y

 

- A DJ charges $250 a night

 

How much should the barowner be willing to pay the band?

 

Stinks, but that's the way it is. The band as a local performing act may go the way of the dodo at some point given the short attention span of today's target market. There will always be bands, but not like it was 10 years ago.

[ATM]

From the An open letter.... thread in the Bandwidth Forum.

 

Originally posted by ChrisOfDoom:

To the people of Seattle, or anywhere for that matter....

 

 

We are your local bands. We aren't famous, rich, or particularly good looking. You haven't seen us on MTV, heard us on the radio, or read about us in magazines. Despite that, night after night, we bring the rock, we bring the funk, we bring the groove, and we bring the soul. Whatever music you are into, there is probably a band playing that music right now with an empty spot on the dance floor waiting for you.

 

You don't even have to pay 50 dollars to see us in a stadium from the nosebleed seats. For a mere five dollar cover you can go to a local bar, see the real musicians up close, you can even shake our hands after our set if you so choose. Unlike the clowns on MTV, we ARE real people, scraping by, just like you.

 

Just think about it, next time you are sitting at home on a Tuesday night watching Fear Factor reruns, just remember that there is a better way. Go down to the Blue Moon or the Central, the Funhouse or the Lobo, or wherever there is live music near you. See what is going on, we might pleasantly surprise you.

 

Sincerely,

 

Your local bands

I thought that this fit nicely.

 

Originally posted by ATM:

Loved that letter so much, I thought it deserved a T-shirt .

 

http://prodtn.cafepress.com/nocache/6/22572076_F_tn.jpghttp://prodtn.cafepress.com/nocache/6/22572076_B_tn.jpg

ATM

[Bottomgottem]

Indeed.

[Seamy ALB]

In Ireland during the 90's there was a phenomenon of the "Superstar DJ" which kind of screwed live music. This partnered a rise in dance/rave culture, however as this trend has died the live music circuit has grown slowly and is starting to re-establish. In fact in Britain and Ireland alot of big clubs have closed or are only open 1 night a weekend. There also seems to be a growing demand for live musicians who are often playing in maybe 3,4,5 different outfits. Us Bass plyers are like hens teeth!!

 

Price wise we get roughly $150-$250 dollars per man per gig.

 

These things go in circles eventually "live" will come around again.

[Big Daddy from Motown]

Here in Detroit the bar scene has taken a big hit from the State Legislature lowering the legal alochol level to .8. The bars seem to be doing a lot less business since then. Guess who else seems to be doing less business?

As for the weekend warrior thing, I'm not buying that. The guys trying to make a living playing are the ones working Sunday thru Thursday nights and picking up some Studio work.

[Bottomgottem]

In this corner of the world, live music is pretty much a Friday and Saturday night thing. The occasional Thursday night also can be found. The same rule applies to the DJs. Any music that will be heard is popped into a CD player by the bartender. Also, no studios. Gotta travel about 80 miles for that. And then there are only a few. Giving lessons makes up the difference.

 

And I'm buying the weekend warrior theory less and less myself.

[SteveC]

Very frustrating. There are people/clubs that are willing to pay. There are musicians that try to hold out for a fair price for their services.

 

Then there are a few people who will play for almost nothing and basically wreck what the rest of us are trying to do. Then, when they are done with school or whatever, they leave and we're left to try and clean up the mess.

[Bottomgottem]

SteveC, that is what I am trying to say.

[alexclaber]

I feel like a bad person. I'm not a huge fan of seeing live music - I'd much rather be the one performing.

 

But I'd be more inclined to check out my local acts if they were capable at playing at a volume level where you could just about hold a conversation with the person next to you. I realise that rock needs to be loud to rock - but not THAT loud!

 

As it is, every gig I go to I get deafened and it's no more a social event than is sitting in my car with the music on at full blast, watching the fellow motorists pass by - I can see them but I certainly can't chat to them...

 

Alex

[getz out]

Music is too loud in clubs; I agree with Alex. My last band actually considered giving out ear-plugs at a couple of venues, but management wasn't so hot on that.

 

DEFINING BANDS

 

Now, for a cover band to play 4 hours with 4 sets for $250 is insane, no matter what market you are in. If you have a four piece band, you're looking at under $16 and hour per a person.

 

However, I haven't played in a cover band in 8 years. I play original rock. That means I play 1 hour and 1 set. Pay? I wish. Certain venues cater; I know one in western NJ that will pay $300 plus dinner and drinks for 2 hours on a Friday. Other than that, I've played venues for free or $40 for the entire band, depending on draw. However, that can be supplemented by selling t-shirts and CDs.

[Stackimo]

Bottomgottem,

 

Don't allow yourself to be strayed from your original statement. The events on 9-11 may have had a big impact on this topic. The economy was BOOMING prior to that event. This country went into a recession. It was not only fear that kept people away, loss in income had to have an impact on customers. Plus, many Club/bar owners probably had investments in other areas, which allowed them to do what they wanted.

 

I am not stating that this is the sole reason, Muscians are not getting paid their due. Its just another puzzle piece that should be considered.

[Stackimo]

Oh, and I do agree with Claber. Volume is a problem.

 

Mixing is a complicated and under-trained practice, but I would say that 90% of the time it has to do with your "brothers" next to you with the Marshal stacks. I have always believed they are a different breed.

[RalphM]

The "battle" between the DJs and live music has been going on for some time now. Post 9-11 people tended to stay home more - sometimes referred to as "cocooning". The same thing happens after any major disaster or national emergency. Those events make most people fee insecure and they tend to stay close to home, friends and loved ones.

 

With fewer people going out to bars and clubs during these periods, the club owners have less of a "gate" and therfore less to spend on entertainment.

 

Unless the club owner is a true fan of live music they probably view dealing bands as a pain-in-the-ass. Of all the venues I play during the course of a year the "talent bookers" who actually appreciate music - let alone live music - are a distinct minority. Mosty have no "ear" at all and the difference between a band, a DJ and the juke box is pure economics.

 

A sharp DJ will have thousands of tunes on-hand and will likely be able to play almost any request from the crowd. How many bands can do that? How many bands even want to do that?

 

Consider: a drunk staggers up to the stage and requests "Freebird". Unless your band's repetorie includes this tune, you can't comply. Most of the groups I work with play some sort 'niche' music - strictly blues, strictly jazz, strictly this, strictly that and would probably be insulted by the request and look upon the friendly drunk as some sort of pest.

 

What does the DJ do in the same situation? Do they care if they play "Freebird" or not? Hell no, they go ahead and play it and another customer is made happy. Besides playing for less money, the DJ is more likely to try and be "all things to all people" than any band could possibly be. This is a formidable threat to any live musician/performer.

 

You and your band have to deliver something that the DJ can't. Unless you are demonstratively better for the club than the DJ - enough to justify the club paying more for you than the DJ -you're not going to get the kind of work or pay you think you deserve.

 

Personally, the Dj thing makes my want to puke, but then, I'm a fan of live music. As newer and newer genrations of people take of the clubs scenes, how many of them (raised on IPods, downloads and all that ) are?

[Big Daddy from Motown]

Sorry, but i'll work for $62.50, it's better than sitting home on Saturday night.

[jeremy c]

The number of venues for live musicians to play has been declining steadily for many years.

 

You can still hear the big band players of the early fifties complain that the smaller rock bands of the sixties put them all out of work.

 

In the seventies and early 80's, I played AT LEAST 6 nights a week all the time. There were clubs everywhere and people went out every night of the week.

 

Why did that change?

 

Lower blood-alcohol levels drunk driving convictions?

Higher enforcement and penalties for drunk driving?

The rise of sexually-transmitted diseases? (I was playing mostly in singles bars and it was a pretty wild scene)

Disco music which opened the door for dj's?

The economy?

Different leisure activities for a different generation?

The mallification of the world....all the small local clubs that I played in are gone and huge hotels and shopping centers are there now.

 

The impoverishment of club owners? Hah! Let me know when you see a club owner driving around in a beat-up Yugo. I've been in bands that were fired from clubs for not drawing enough people and I've been in bands that drew sell-out crowds and were fired because "the club is drawing lots of people, we could get a cheaper band". I've been in bands that played in corporate hotels until they got a new bar manager....the function of these jr. assistant corporate bar managers seems to be to "make changes"...that usually means change the format of music in the bar.

 

In 1970 I was getting $25 a night to play in clubs. The going rate now seems to be around $100. That's an increase of 400%. Meanwhile, housing, cars, gasoline, and many other things have increased 1000%. In 1972 I bought a brand new car for $2400. Gas was 25 cents a gallon, now it's $3. In 1978 I bought a house for $66,000. It's now worth $600,000. And so forth.

 

I actually got asked to do a club gig for $25 a few weeks ago. And other musicians were willing to do the gig, even though after the cost of gas to get there, a hamburger and a few drinks at the bar, the net pay would end up being about $10.

 

In the old days, the club owners drove Cadillacs which cost maybe twice what our cars cost. Now they drive Mercedes which cost 5 or 6 times as much.

 

The rich get richer and the musicians stay on the bottom.

[Fred TBP]

Originally posted by Social Critic:

There are not very many venues for "creepy stoner rock" out there. They don't pack in a large crowd, just a very loyal niche crowd who spent most of there money on "creepy stoner stuff" and not on cover charges and well drinks.

I like that label - "creepy stoner rock" - yeah, that's me. There are still private parties and seasonal areas (the Jersey Shore) where it still pulls in people and I get employed, but it's been decreasing of late.

 

In addition to all the aforementioned, the newer, harsher DUI laws have something to do with that in the US. A lot of my older friends are reluctant to risk suspension of their driver's licenses (not to mention the fines) as the states keep lowering the blood-alcohol minimum that turns the average Joe & Jane having "two drinks at the bar" into lawbreakers.

 

And you can't survive on just "stoner rock", you really have to know what's on FM (especially in the college circuit) to keep a band current and popular in the club circuit. So I've moved from clubs to fill-ins at private parties and "stoner" venues. But there's room for the occasional "stoner rock" band if they do it really, REALLY well and cover the major classics, but getting band members to focus on that is somewhat difficult to do in my neck of the woods.

[SteveC]

I agree 100% that volume is just too loud. Unless you're in a venue where that's the expectation (arena concert, outdoor concert, etc.) I think you should keep it down to a very reasonable level. If you are at a bar/restaurant (where I play a lot) people like to be able to talk if/when they aren't listening to you.

 

Like it or not, smetimes you are just background music.

[Big Daddy from Motown]

I don't know guys, it seems to me that DJ's are always to loud too. I don't think the problem is that bands play to loud. The economy here is definitely in the tank.

[alexclaber]

Originally posted by Big Daddy from Motown:

I don't know guys, it seems to me that DJ's are always to loud too.

I'd agree on that too. But because DJs are playing music that has already been mastered it doesn't seem to be quite so viscious on the ears - less output around the critical 1kHz snare/maximum ear sensitivity area.

 

And I don't mind so much that DJs are loud because (assuming you're in a club that plays music to your taste) the music grooves and you can dance to it. Seeing a band you're often at the mercy of players who can't hold no groove, and of songwriters who just ain't got it but still need to play it to the world.

 

Damn, I sound cynical!

 

Alex

[dhomer]

This is a great thread.... every post here says something thats the gawd's truth... Here in western Michigan, we have a lot of the same kind of stuff going on.. DJ's and karaoke, bands that will play for $150 or less, it's tough getting established around here.

 

I had the good fortune to join one of the finest bands in the area last year (www.gbrothers.com). Our songlist is printed on a little handout that we leave on the tables, and we invite people to sign up for the email list and request songs by circling the ones they want to hear off the list and bring it up to the stage.. Most nights we don't have to put together a setlist...lol

 

Yes, we get paid the area's "top dollar" in the clubs that we play, but that amount isn't going up, either. The band members are spread out around a fairly large area, and I routinely drive about 300 miles a weekend. Was getting to the point that the profit margin wasn't almost worth one of the best gigs I've ever had.. However, we have taken steps to make it better.

 

A couple months back we went from 6 members to 5. The difference there is a tank of gas... We also took my suggestion to leave as much time open as possible between Memorial Day and Labor Day to book private parties and corporate functions, which are one nighters and pay like two.. This year we turned down a LOT of those, simply because we were already booked...

 

There are some bands in this area who won't play clubs at all.. they make a killing doing weddings...lol That may not be the solution for a band doing original metal, but its the way to put good $$ in yer pocket doing this..

[jeremy c]

I don't know how the conversation turned to band volume.

 

The discos I have been to have the music louder than the bands.

 

I often play with a band called Adama which plays Israeli folk dances at weddings and b'nai mitzvot. We are often followed by a dj. The dj is always louder than we are.

 

I have been in two different clubs in San Francisco where the sound system (not necessarily the band) was cranked to a deafening level. Getz76 was with me at one of these shows. Earplugs were given out at the bar. The shows were sold out.

 

Actually here in the S.F. area, touring bands nearly always sell out their shows. These bands play in every conceivable style and many of them do not get radio airplay.

 

I don't think that the problem is that people don't want to go out and hear music.

 

However, it is very, very difficult for a local band to find a place to play where they can get paid anything other than chump change.

 

I stopped playing clubs many years ago. Now I play corporate parties and society weddings. I work about three gigs a week and make WAY more than I ever made playing six nights a week in clubs.....and I was playing in clubs with a successful cover band that filled clubs every night of the week.

[getz out]

Jeremy, that was one of the loudest clubs I had ever been in.

 

Almost as loud as Don Hill's on the West Side. (NYC folks know what I'm talking about)

[wraub]

Don Hill's, you say?

What?!?

 

Peace,

 

wraub

[Bottomgottem]

Originally posted by jeremy c:

I stopped playing clubs many years ago. Now I play corporate parties and society weddings. I work about three gigs a week and make WAY more than I ever made playing six nights a week in clubs.....and I was playing in clubs with a successful cover band that filled clubs every night of the week.

Nice work if you can get it.

 

Actually we do get the occasional posh society and "dentist convention" type of gig due to our proximity to the mountain ski resorts. And believe me they do pay well. Many times I've seen a tourist toss a Ben Franklin in the tip jar for the novelty of hearing "Sweet Home Alabama" sung with an honest southern accent.

 

It just doesn't come along quite often enough to sustain a fellow.

 

Concerning the volume issue: I am currently debating this with my own bandmates. I kind of feel that my drummer and g*****ist are being a tad over the top. And they become a little too indignant when asked to lower the volume. And they wear earplugs when they play. Go figure...